Why do most guys here swap in 4L80E's?
03-09-2011, 12:46 AM
#42
I tried to explain it to you and for some reason you just don't get it..
So tell me, what don't you understand? I can explain it for a 3rd time if you would like.
03-09-2011, 04:13 AM
#43
OK, let me dummy this down one more time for you..
Pretend you are the transmission and the converter is a spinning wheel, now the factory converter is 55lbs, spin it up to 6,000, shift and slow it down to 4,000...fell good?
Now install a 3600 converter that weighs 32 lbs, spin it to 6,000, shift...it only falls to 4800 , because it is still slipping and cushing the shift, what do you think is easier to slow down 50lbs? or 32lbs?
...
Pretend you are the transmission and the converter is a spinning wheel, now the factory converter is 55lbs, spin it up to 6,000, shift and slow it down to 4,000...fell good?
Now install a 3600 converter that weighs 32 lbs, spin it to 6,000, shift...it only falls to 4800 , because it is still slipping and cushing the shift, what do you think is easier to slow down 50lbs? or 32lbs?
...
It makes sense that because stock TC allows less slippage shock load would be less. And you must count not only TC weight/inertia but also crank+flexplate inertia.
However you wrote "And the fact that you think a converter adds tq is funny, it actually just makes tq come in sooner.", and I was thinking immediately "Wtf, doesn't torque multiplication exist anymore"?
03-09-2011, 08:42 AM
#44
That's a good explanation, even I understood
It makes sense that because stock TC allows less slippage shock load would be less. And you must count not only TC weight/inertia but also crank+flexplate inertia.
However you wrote "And the fact that you think a converter adds tq is funny, it actually just makes tq come in sooner.", and I was thinking immediately "Wtf, doesn't torque multiplication exist anymore"?
It makes sense that because stock TC allows less slippage shock load would be less. And you must count not only TC weight/inertia but also crank+flexplate inertia.
However you wrote "And the fact that you think a converter adds tq is funny, it actually just makes tq come in sooner.", and I was thinking immediately "Wtf, doesn't torque multiplication exist anymore"?
My car put down 290 hp 340 ft.lbs stock converter, after the converter my car put down 315 hp and 330 ft. lbs.. yeah big tq multiplication
....LOLI understand where the term comes from, but you are just slipping the converter and allowing the motor to put down hp and tq sooner
read stickies! lol
03-09-2011, 09:17 AM
#46
OK, let me dummy this down one more time for you..
Pretend you are the transmission and the converter is a spinning wheel, now the factory converter is 55lbs, spin it up to 6,000, shift and slow it down to 4,000...fell good?
Now install a 3600 converter that weighs 32 lbs, spin it to 6,000, shift...it only falls to 4800 , because it is still slipping and cushing the shift, what do you think is easier to slow down 50lbs? or 32lbs?
Would you rather get hit by a 50lbs ball? or a 32 lbs ball? what is gonna hurt more?
But I might be wrong, slow67, maybe the stock transmission likes being hit with a 50lb sledge hammer.
And its not just stock vehicles, my 4l60e broke more parts with a stock converter vs. a 3600...
Pretend you are the transmission and the converter is a spinning wheel, now the factory converter is 55lbs, spin it up to 6,000, shift and slow it down to 4,000...fell good?
Now install a 3600 converter that weighs 32 lbs, spin it to 6,000, shift...it only falls to 4800 , because it is still slipping and cushing the shift, what do you think is easier to slow down 50lbs? or 32lbs?
Would you rather get hit by a 50lbs ball? or a 32 lbs ball? what is gonna hurt more?
But I might be wrong, slow67, maybe the stock transmission likes being hit with a 50lb sledge hammer.
And its not just stock vehicles, my 4l60e broke more parts with a stock converter vs. a 3600...
03-09-2011, 12:12 PM
#48
we are getting off the original topic of 60 vs 80 but...
bottom line, converters hold fluid and spin the **** out of it.. holding it until that perfect moment, (hopefully within your torque curve sweet spot) until it explodes and voila... transfer of power happens. Now these higher stall converters are generally not streetable if they perform well at the track. Why? because the must be used higher in the power band to be effective.. kind of like revving the clutch and dumping it at 3k... we spend most of our time somewhere between 4k and 7k when we run, depending on gearing, track length and trap speed. These same high stall converters dont work the same on the street because we are not in that 4-7k rpm range generally, (unless you drive like a bat out of hell)... during these little cruises.. the converter is spinning at engine rpm but it that stator and pump arent engaging then your just revving your engine but not going anywhere...
Just because I dont have a stall in my car doesnt mean Im an idiot any more than you having one means you're a ****** genius...
converters make heat, heat is the number 1 killer of trannys...
bottom line, converters hold fluid and spin the **** out of it.. holding it until that perfect moment, (hopefully within your torque curve sweet spot) until it explodes and voila... transfer of power happens. Now these higher stall converters are generally not streetable if they perform well at the track. Why? because the must be used higher in the power band to be effective.. kind of like revving the clutch and dumping it at 3k... we spend most of our time somewhere between 4k and 7k when we run, depending on gearing, track length and trap speed. These same high stall converters dont work the same on the street because we are not in that 4-7k rpm range generally, (unless you drive like a bat out of hell)... during these little cruises.. the converter is spinning at engine rpm but it that stator and pump arent engaging then your just revving your engine but not going anywhere...
Just because I dont have a stall in my car doesnt mean Im an idiot any more than you having one means you're a ****** genius...
converters make heat, heat is the number 1 killer of trannys...
Last edited by ANTICOP RAM AIR; 03-09-2011 at 12:36 PM. Reason: Removed a non sponsor plug, sorry...
03-09-2011, 01:09 PM
#49
we are getting off the original topic of 60 vs 80 but...
bottom line, converters hold fluid and spin the **** out of it.. holding it until that perfect moment, (hopefully within your torque curve sweet spot) until it explodes and voila... transfer of power happens. Now these higher stall converters are generally not streetable if they perform well at the track. Why? because the must be used higher in the power band to be effective.. kind of like revving the clutch and dumping it at 3k... we spend most of our time somewhere between 4k and 7k when we run, depending on gearing, track length and trap speed. These same high stall converters dont work the same on the street because we are not in that 4-7k rpm range generally, (unless you drive like a bat out of hell)... during these little cruises.. the converter is spinning at engine rpm but it that stator and pump arent engaging then your just revving your engine but not going anywhere...
Just because I dont have a stall in my car doesnt mean Im an idiot any more than you having one means you're a ****** genius...
converters make heat, heat is the number 1 killer of trannys...
bottom line, converters hold fluid and spin the **** out of it.. holding it until that perfect moment, (hopefully within your torque curve sweet spot) until it explodes and voila... transfer of power happens. Now these higher stall converters are generally not streetable if they perform well at the track. Why? because the must be used higher in the power band to be effective.. kind of like revving the clutch and dumping it at 3k... we spend most of our time somewhere between 4k and 7k when we run, depending on gearing, track length and trap speed. These same high stall converters dont work the same on the street because we are not in that 4-7k rpm range generally, (unless you drive like a bat out of hell)... during these little cruises.. the converter is spinning at engine rpm but it that stator and pump arent engaging then your just revving your engine but not going anywhere...
Just because I dont have a stall in my car doesnt mean Im an idiot any more than you having one means you're a ****** genius...
converters make heat, heat is the number 1 killer of trannys...
I have never met one person so miss informed about transmissions.
03-09-2011, 01:17 PM
#50
Ok, and what about all the engine internals? they don't weight anything now? What about the truck guys.....the boosted ones seem to LOVE the ungodly heavy stock 80e converter. The weight may have a little effect on transmission life, but I guarantee you HP/TQ will overshadow ANY effect that converter weight has on transmission life.
The whole inertia thing is over your head
03-09-2011, 01:43 PM
#51
Seriously? 
You should take a course in fluid dynamics... You have only tossed out one or two relevant comments. The rest of the time you spent talking down to other members for their opinions or input in general. My information is correct as is yours. I just feel some areas are more important than others. Yours is the whole rotating mass/inertia thing and mine is heat... (also a course in heat transfer would be nice too, both are offered a University of Texas at Arlington in their Engineering Program.) The difference between us is I'm not an ******* about it. You on the other hand....
You should take a course in fluid dynamics... You have only tossed out one or two relevant comments. The rest of the time you spent talking down to other members for their opinions or input in general. My information is correct as is yours. I just feel some areas are more important than others. Yours is the whole rotating mass/inertia thing and mine is heat... (also a course in heat transfer would be nice too, both are offered a University of Texas at Arlington in their Engineering Program.) The difference between us is I'm not an ******* about it. You on the other hand....
03-09-2011, 01:47 PM
#52
Yeah too bad that was over 2 years when I bought it, I've learned a lot since then. There is a long list of what kills a tranny....I can guarantee you converter weight is at or near the bottom. Up top I would put hp/tq, right below that vehicle weight. I've never heard a transmission guy ask how much the crankshaft weights......and its bolted to the converter. A stock BBC crank weighs more than any 60E converter I have seen (and at most a stock 80E crankshaft matches it.....a stroker BBC crank can weight can get to almost 100lbs).
Why don't you stop polluting this thread with misinformation and
03-09-2011, 02:00 PM
#53
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I have a 9 hundred dollar built 60e that i wouldnt change for anything. It had a 3400 stall, 425hp,365 tq and it has never been a problem for me.It shifts 1-2 at 6900rpm and same for 2-3 shift. I race my car all the time and it never gets hot ( simply way of fixing that problem is a good cooler). i check and change the fluid evry couple thousand miles and is still red as the day i put it in. my cars race weight is 3400 lbs. thats whats goin to end up hurting me in the long run. All in all reading these debates.....I think my 60e will outlast a lot of peoples trannys because its not just how you build them its how and who built them. MY oppinion, unless youre building at high 600 hp car build a 60e. I have my friend build my 60e and it just so happens his own 60e has lasted him 2 seasons and his car seeing 10.2!!!!!!!
03-09-2011, 05:41 PM
#55
^ Why is my reasoning so wrong? Honestly, if someone can prove that I am wrong then I will publicly apologize and admit my wrongness. I hate being wrong, but if I am, I admit it.
03-09-2011, 06:24 PM
#56
Only the converter turbine and lockup is attached to the input shaft and it is relatively light. You have a fluid cushion between the converter pump and the turbine.
The only "weight" the input shaft sees is the turbine. The power transferred by the fluid has a much more profound effect on the transmission.
As a side note, "slow67" probably knows more about the hydraulics and power flow of a 4L80E than anybody else in the country beside myself and a few Hydramatic engineers. He's had a 2 year crash course in it.
The "spragless 4L80E" design we are currently testing is his brainchild.
03-09-2011, 06:35 PM
#57
ummm, really weight wasnt my argument... stall rate was..I mentioned weight but not in that context but after all the posts maybe what i got lost in translation.. the weight really doesnt have as much effect as the heat generated by the higher stall rate. My argument is heat.. not weight. SilverZ28 was all over that...
03-09-2011, 06:59 PM
#58
ummm, really weight wasnt my argument... stall rate was..I mentioned weight but not in that context but after all the posts maybe what i got lost in translation.. the weight really doesnt have as much effect as the heat generated by the higher stall rate. My argument is heat.. not weight. SilverZ28 was all over that...
As far as the heat thing goes, I do agree heat is bad for transmissions, but put a good cooler in there and with any stall you are good to go. I rebuilt a 4l60e for a local guy who was installin a ss4000 converter, very loose and creates a good amount of heat, I told him to go with the same cooler as I went with my build and my trucks build, no heat issues....I told him to call me a week later, we met up, trans shift very nice, and fluid is very pink, touch on side of the cooler mounted to the radiator, one side is pretty warm, the other side comes out nice and cool, seems like its working. And most
So with our discussion on heat with a stall converter being bad, the fix is a good cooler, then the heat is not a concern..
03-09-2011, 07:04 PM
#59
Heat is a huge deal,
95% of it is created by the converter.
It's a manageable side effect because the fluid goes from the converter directly out to the cooler before returning to the trans as lube oil.
A good cooler setup is all that is needed.
95% of it is created by the converter.
It's a manageable side effect because the fluid goes from the converter directly out to the cooler before returning to the trans as lube oil.
A good cooler setup is all that is needed.
03-09-2011, 07:04 PM
#60
Yeah too bad that was over 2 years when I bought it, I've learned a lot since then. There is a long list of what kills a tranny....I can guarantee you converter weight is at or near the bottom. Up top I would put hp/tq, right below that vehicle weight. I've never heard a transmission guy ask how much the crankshaft weights......and its bolted to the converter. A stock BBC crank weighs more than any 60E converter I have seen (and at most a stock 80E crankshaft matches it.....a stroker BBC crank can weight can get to almost 100lbs).
Why don't you stop polluting this thread with misinformation and
Most of the parts broken in a 60e are from a 1-2 shift, thats where the trans is trying to slow down both the crank and converter, etc. any weight and inertia you can remove, then better.