newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Ok, this is what I found. I dropped the pan and found just a small amount of black ,super fine material. This is something Ive always seen in every trans pan Ive ever looked in. I pulled the filter and found a very small amount of very fine metal ( sticks to a magnet ) and 3 small pieces of a brittle plastic like material, laying on the top of the filter. It is a light tan color and looks like the friction material on the clutch packs I can see in the trans. Don't know that that is what it is, but its the same color.
I cut the converter open and found no metal in it. The lockup clutch looks fine and the fins don't look distorted. They are bent, but without knowing how much they were bent before , I don't know that they are damaged. I am assuming the converter probably ballooned behind the LS3, but don't know how to tell if it did. The converter is rated for around 350 HP, from what I can tell, so Im sure it wasn't happy with approx. 525 HP.
I can post a few pics , if anyone thinks they can identify the materials or if the converter was ballooning. Thanks in advance for any feedback.

pricesgarage

does it have a stock pan the 200r4 will starve for fluid even in a mild car pan needs baffles

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Really? I have never heard that in all my research. Not saying I don't believe you, just never heard it. Very interesting. Who makes a baffled pan or has a diagram of how to baffle one?

tta656

iTrader: (5)

Not to offend anyone here but....Nobody can build a 200r4 better than a GN trans builder...always run one extra qt of fluid..In all my yrs of owning GN's i have never heard of a baffled pan....Deep pans yes they have them..

www.turbobuick.com

go to the trans section...the best 200r4 trans builders are there..

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

Nobody hangs out on TurboBuick anymore as far as trans builders. Maybe Chris at CK, but it's not the mecca of badass trans builders it used to be.

I used to be fairly active there and I have 200-4Rs in 9 second GN's. I make parts for some of the other well known builders who still specialize in 200-4Rs.

There is some baffling that can/should be done, especially on a stock pan. A deep pan helps, a deep pan, proper filter and pickup, and baffling is the ultimate answer.

tta656

iTrader: (5)

http://www.extremeautomatics.com/tra...ons/2004r.html



http://www.ckperformance.com/resourc...SMISSIONS.html


also if you are near NY area...David Husek is building a large following for his work.

pricesgarage

i learned that on the turbo Buick site when i was building my Oldsmoble with a 200r4 i had a deep pan made so i can use a 700r4 filter at but there are after market pans on the market
the 700 filter picks up fluid better than the 200r4

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

I have been over on turbobuick for the last week, picking brains. I have also been emailing Lonnie at EA and he has been very helpful. It is pretty much a sure thing that the converter wasn't up to taking the LS3.
My builder is an amazing trannie man and has experience with the 2004R. I am still looking for the ideal converter for my price range and needs/wants. I am going to run a deep pan and a bottom feeder filter, for sure. I am also going to get a billet input shaft front drum. Other than that, Dean is going to tear the trans down and check/replace anything that may be coming apart inside.
The combo of a stock pan, 13 vane pump, and a trans leak w a half quart low level is most likely why I had the poor pull on the WOT run on the way home from the track. I think the shrieking sound was the converter fighting to couple at the track.
This is probably going to be met with don't run that crap, but does anyone have any experience with PATCs converters. The sales guy is willing to "make a deal" on one of their billet 10.5" single disc converters w the new design stators. Chris at Circle D recommended his single disc billet 245mm. PTC recommends a standard style 10" built to my specs. All are suppose to flash to 3000-3200. I like the billet converters w the new stator because they are suppose to feel near stock till you go WOT then act like a looser converter. Thanks for the input, guys. Oh and happy 4th. Thanks to all the brave guys and gals that made the sacrifice , so we can burn rubber in a free country.

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

I personally would go with PTC. I assure you, those guys know what they are doing. One of my customers is running 7's with their converter and a 2 speed TH400 in a full weight '03 Cobra.

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

Lonnie knows his stuff, I make some parts for his 200-4Rs. We've collaborated for a long time.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Thanks for the advise on converters. Lonnie seems to be a genuinely nice guy. Has been very helpful and he doesn't owe me a thing. Same with you. Thanks again!

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

Lonnie is a good guy, very busy as well usually.
Lonnie makes parts for Dave Husek.

Lonnie is one of the original big time 200-4R builders. Lonnie, Chris @ CK, CPT (Art Carr), Bruce Toelle (out of business), Vince Janis, myself, and a couple others who don't do it anymore or only on a small scale.
Before I was doing 4L80E's heavily, I did a lot of 200-4rs for the retrofit guys and GN guys. One of my customers was in HotRod magazine recently, he's running 10's on a 200-4R I built probably 5 yrs ago.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Do you sell the billet input shaft front drum? And maybe the deep pan or a baffling setup for the stock pan? My Camaro has the Hotchkis TVS stuff for suspension and ground clearance isn't the best. Right now the trans pan sits about flush with the F-body pan I have on the engine. If I go with a deep cast pan, it will be the lowest thing hanging under the car. A shallow ,baffled pan would work better for my setup.

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

You can make the baffle for the stock pan, using a small piece of a soda can. You need to fold it over the case where the parking pawl rod goes through to the rear pan sump area. It keeps fluid from running to the rear.
Lonnie may be able to get you a shallow fabbed aluminum pan.

tta656

iTrader: (5)

Cool info Jake...From what i remember 10 yrs ago Bruce made a ton of billet stuff and prolly made leaps and bounds for the strength of the trannies,,I maybe wrong..

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

My understanding is that Bruce got the idea for the billet forward shafted drums from Scotty McClay, who is know for doing some killer 200 3 speeds for Stock Eliminator classes.

The guy who was making Bruce's parts was a machinist in CA, I bought some billet parts from him for awhile when I was getting poor quality from a vendor in NY and quit doing business with him.
I think Bruce got pretty deep with the guy $$$ wise and couldn't pay, so Bruce had to buy from the NY vendor. All hearsay..

Lonnie used to contract build for PTS (Bruce).

Lonnie commissioned a quality transmission parts manufacturer to make his billet forward drums and other shafts, and I believe Dave Husek either partnered up with Lonnie on the deal or buys the parts from Lonnie. I have a guy who makes mine for me (and Vince Janis).

A couple of years ago I made separator plates for the 200-4R. Lonnie uses them now. GM still makes the GN code plate, but I plug a hole in it and I hate plugging holes, so I made plates.

IMO, Art Carr was probably one of the first real innovators of the 200-4R, but I think some of his methods are old school/outdated.

Bruce was probably the next, but as someone once put it, he had the "California tax" thing going. High prices.

Chris at CK came along and started making some fairly affordable parts for the masses and in reality he put a lot of us in the 200-4R industry in a good position, me included. Probably Lonnie as well. The problem is Chris could cut everyone else's throat on the cost of a build, because he made the parts.
I was already getting heavily into the 4L80E market so it wasn't a big concern for me, I just priced myself out of the market and let it ride. Lonnie must have kept a pretty good share of it, and I think in the end he may have gained some because he maintained quality (and he didn't have to compete with me )

So that really left Lonnie, Chris, Dave Husek, and Vince Janis as the really good builders IMO. And it seems like Dave has kinda been in and out of it. I haven't really kept up with it.

I eliminated the 200-4Rs from my build list for awhile, until I was able to find another place to make the billet pieces I needed. I still build them but I concentrate on the more serious builds. My Stage 3 build, which has the billet forward drum/deep pan/servo. All the stuff that they really need so that I feel comfortable sending them out for performance use.
The 200-4R is a badass little unit when built right, but it is getting problematic as far as cores, hard parts, etc.

I'm doing a 200-4R for a Cobra Replica in the shop right now, LS powerplant.

So there's a little history lesson for you...

tta656

iTrader: (5)

Totally awesome...thanks Dennis

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Lots of interesting info......Do you think the sump problem is just on straight line acceleration? My car is as much a corner carver as a drag car. More so really. All the drag racing talk is just from the fact that the problems came about at the drag strip, and I want a solid 11 second time slip to stash in the glovebox. Solid multipurpose car is what I am trying to accomplish.
Thanks for the info on the fabbed pan. I will email Lonnie and see what he says about it. I guess you don't sell the billet input shaft front drum setup? If you do, and the price is competitive , I may buy that from you.
Do you know who Lonnie gets his converters from. He said he doesn't build them himself but would be glad to sell me one. I want to give you and him some business because you both have helped me out .

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

I don't sell any parts anymore. Let Lonnie hook you up on that if he wants to. I don't know who Lonnie is using for converters and if he doesn't want to say, I'm not going to say either.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

That's cool. I didn't ask him who he used. He just said he doesn't make them himself. I emailed him this morning about the parts. thanks again for the help.