Why do i keep buring up 3-4 clutchpack
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
I've had the same problems. I blame the 3-4 clutch pack failures on a bad Transgo HD-2 installation. If I select 2nd then the car takes will take off in 2nd, wont go through 1st then into 2nd.
I'm going to reinstall the stock valve body and see how the trans copes.
I'm going to reinstall the stock valve body and see how the trans copes.
Are any of you that are burning up trannies running ported MAFs? If so, that will definitely shorten tranny life. The ported MAF tricks the PCM into thinking there's less load, therefore it increase timing, leans out A/F ratio, and lowers line pressure. Lower line pressure will cause the clutches to slip and glaze the surface. This topic's been covered extensively in the past, but not all the new members know about this.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 742
Likes: 0
From: Cincinnati, OH
Quick question, as my own '98Z is an A4-do the 4l60e's really suck THAT bad? I messed around with the Turbo Buicks for awhile, and in my many contacts with racers/builders I expected a lot more from these autos. I personally had a Level 10 200-4R in my TR with a 9.5 Art Carr 3400 stall and 10 vane billet front pump with no problems. It was built by a gentleman that used the EXACT same trans in his high/mid 10 second TR. and had little (if any) problems with it. Now mine never made the power his did before I sold it, but he personally guaranteed the trans. to 9.99(with no trans-brake use) and that it would be fairly streetable(which it was). The build consisted of Raybestos Blues, Kolene reaction steels, and a hardened input shaft/hardened front drum.
I guess my ? is-if I plan on making big power/racing my LS1 should I just go the 2004r way, or what? I'm seeing too many failures, and pulling the trans. every month or two is not acceptable.
Thanks in advance.
Frank.
I guess my ? is-if I plan on making big power/racing my LS1 should I just go the 2004r way, or what? I'm seeing too many failures, and pulling the trans. every month or two is not acceptable.
Thanks in advance.
Frank.
My tranny has a B&M super cooler on it and runs around 130 normal and 150-170 after a few WOT passes. It never gets hot untill I lose 3rd and 4th. The sender is on the side of the tranny. It may not be the best place but atleast I know when it does act funny. I also have a 85mm mass air meter but I am running the vacume control on my tranny. Good info..does anyone have any other ideas.
Staging Lane
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
My car didn't have the 2nd gear start as a stock feature. Only occured after the Transgo shiftkit was installed. Might have been the wrong kit for the trans.
I run a speed density tune, and 2 trans coolers. Trans temp 70 Deg C normal driving and 85 Deg C hard driving, with the Yank PT4400 stall.
I run a speed density tune, and 2 trans coolers. Trans temp 70 Deg C normal driving and 85 Deg C hard driving, with the Yank PT4400 stall.
4,000 lb race weight (3,550 car plus gas plus 417 lb driver!). Stock tranny with TQ management deleted, 2800 Vig converter, B&M cooler, stock 3.23 rear...runing 11.6 on radials (382 MTI stroker) for all season with no problems...then toward end of season, trany started slipping, took it to Rossler and have a BAD *** tranny now. Very expensive, but worth it. I have seen the same ting you guys see, either bone stock lasts the longest or someone like Rossler, the in-between stuff just doesn't work so well.
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TECH Apprentice
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 357
Likes: 0
From: Anch., Alaska
Originally Posted by Colonel
I have done a little programming as well. Set your desired shift times to 0 to quicken the shifts. Leave the pressure stock. The shift kit will take care of that. Delete the TQ management.
Tell you what else you might do.
When we first did the heads/cam setup I was convinced that the stocker would take a dive soon. So, I ordered up ALL KINDS of goodies for the little 4L60-E from TCI. Well, 10,000 miles later they're still sitting in the box! LOL! Guess I'm using Murphy's Law to my advantage.
Tell you what else you might do.
When we first did the heads/cam setup I was convinced that the stocker would take a dive soon. So, I ordered up ALL KINDS of goodies for the little 4L60-E from TCI. Well, 10,000 miles later they're still sitting in the box! LOL! Guess I'm using Murphy's Law to my advantage.That is the first time I have seen someone recommend changing shift time to zero.
Is that really ok?
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,246
Likes: 3
From: Troy, AL
I'm not saying it's completely easy on your hard parts (surely it's more jarring) but I think it's easier on your frictions (and that's the weakest link, IMO.) It's the way I've been running mine for at least 20,000 miles. So far so good with the stock clutches holding up well to spirited daily driving and occasional low 11 second passes in a heavy car.
Your call. All I can tell you is what I'm actually doing and how it's working out for me. Others may tell you what they *think* should happen if you do this or that.
Your call. All I can tell you is what I'm actually doing and how it's working out for me. Others may tell you what they *think* should happen if you do this or that.
TECH Regular
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 439
Likes: 1
From: burbank ca
trans
Originally Posted by NA$TY-TA
Three words for the 4L60E...... Piece of ****......... this is the 2nd time ive built mine..... thank god for friends..... and im going to a TH-350 now........
Kyle
Kyle
TECH Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 4,540
Likes: 0
From: Las Vegas, NV
a couple things i'd like to add. i've went with the superior products shift correction kits a while ago instead of the transgo myself, but that's more of a preferrence thing. do you manually shift it? if you do, stop that.... i agree with setting the shift timings to zero and leaving the pressure setting to stock. i'd recomend the 8 plate (blues) raybestos kit which now comes with it's own steels. if you use the kolene's with the blue plates they will eat them for lunch quickly. the z-pack is also very nice, but hasn't proven to be as strong to this point in their own testing. deffinitly use the boost springs to keep the clutch drag from occuring. i also recomend using the billet servo's and .490 boost valve. i'd recomend no more than .035-.045 plate travel which is selectable. also are you running lock-up at w.o.t.? if you are, get rid of that also. just a few things off the top of my head.
TECH Veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by CamaroSS_2002
9 clutches are TOO THIN -- you'll burn them up in no time -- get the raybestos blue 6-pack and you'll save yourself some friction loss and the clutches are thicker and handle heat better. The clutches were designed for high horsepower and a reasonable life, the alto 9 pack is just too thin -- take it from my experienes -- 4 trannies and two of them had toasted 9-packs -- I toasted one set of raybestos blue 6's cause my band failed, otherwise they'd still be good 
-- got a set going fine now in my current trans.
you also should have your pressures checked.
Alot of high-performance builders will remove the retaining springs in the 3rd gear pack, these springs are designed by OEM to prevent the 3rd gear clutches from grabbing in high rpms of 1st and 2nd -- some people thing removing the springs will net better shifts -- I don't believe that I believe it'll just cause the clutches to stick and burn up.
I also noticed you had your drum machined? so you are using 9 stock clutches? or are you using the alto reds?
-- got a set going fine now in my current trans.you also should have your pressures checked.
Alot of high-performance builders will remove the retaining springs in the 3rd gear pack, these springs are designed by OEM to prevent the 3rd gear clutches from grabbing in high rpms of 1st and 2nd -- some people thing removing the springs will net better shifts -- I don't believe that I believe it'll just cause the clutches to stick and burn up.
I also noticed you had your drum machined? so you are using 9 stock clutches? or are you using the alto reds?
If they were too thin why would many people use them? They are EVER so slightly thinner. Like .062 vs .067 for stockers, that's not a huge difference. Besides that, the load and heat is spread over 9 clutches instead of 6 AND the Red Eagles come with Kolene steels. The Red Eagle clutch is also of a better design. It doesn't have that waffle pattern the BW Tans do and the backing behind the friction material is a hi-temp resistant backing.
The problem is NOT the clutches, it's the builder most of the time! Sloppy half-assed builds are the problem. After that it's a lack of fluid flow to the 3-4 pack as torque increases.
Also, you want to be rid of the Load Release Springs in the 3-4 pack. The few rebuild books I have (ATSG for instance) tell you to ditch those springs also. The hang up can be limited by a few small holes in the input drum. That will prevent centrifugal apply of the clutches at high RPMs.
Lastly, you do NOT want super hard shifts that bark the tires at 2500rpms...that shock loads the internals. Like putting an impact gun to them.
Originally Posted by Hit Man X
If they were too thin why would many people use them? They are EVER so slightly thinner. Like .062 vs .067 for stockers, that's not a huge difference. Besides that, the load and heat is spread over 9 clutches instead of 6 AND the Red Eagles come with Kolene steels. The Red Eagle clutch is also of a better design. It doesn't have that waffle pattern the BW Tans do and the backing behind the friction material is a hi-temp resistant backing.
The problem is NOT the clutches, it's the builder most of the time! Sloppy half-assed builds are the problem. After that it's a lack of fluid flow to the 3-4 pack as torque increases.
Also, you want to be rid of the Load Release Springs in the 3-4 pack. The few rebuild books I have (ATSG for instance) tell you to ditch those springs also. The hang up can be limited by a few small holes in the input drum. That will prevent centrifugal apply of the clutches at high RPMs.
Lastly, you do NOT want super hard shifts that bark the tires at 2500rpms...that shock loads the internals. Like putting an impact gun to them.
The problem is NOT the clutches, it's the builder most of the time! Sloppy half-assed builds are the problem. After that it's a lack of fluid flow to the 3-4 pack as torque increases.
Also, you want to be rid of the Load Release Springs in the 3-4 pack. The few rebuild books I have (ATSG for instance) tell you to ditch those springs also. The hang up can be limited by a few small holes in the input drum. That will prevent centrifugal apply of the clutches at high RPMs.
Lastly, you do NOT want super hard shifts that bark the tires at 2500rpms...that shock loads the internals. Like putting an impact gun to them.
I agree about the shift comment, since you are close you should go tell Texas Best transmission in arlington that
who/where do you work because I'm gonna look you up for future reference in case I have a question I can't answer
-- you're local to me. TECH Veteran
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 4,492
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by CamaroSS_2002
I agree with the builder comment but the reason the 9 pack fails is cause of lack of fluid pressure and if you got a computer controlled trans that is a hard thing to get nailed down, the raybestos 6-pack is thicker than stock to my knowledge -- I will have to double check the ATSG manual because I don't recall reading that but I guess it could be in there
I agree about the shift comment, since you are close you should go tell Texas Best transmission in arlington that
who/where do you work because I'm gonna look you up for future reference in case I have a question I can't answer -- you're local to me.
I agree about the shift comment, since you are close you should go tell Texas Best transmission in arlington that
who/where do you work because I'm gonna look you up for future reference in case I have a question I can't answer
-- you're local to me.Page 62, Fig 110 on them load release springs.
Fluid pressure also...no flow = slippage I'd assume thus heat, hence burned pack.
Ah yes... another person wanting to pick my mind about trannies.
I'm just a lowly college student now that plays with trannies on the side. I wish I had the capital to start building them. Yeah feel free to pick my mind about them all you want...just wait until it costs money to get one built. lol Advice will still be free. 
Even Ken Kelly himself said setting the shift time to 0 is a bad idea as things can catch given the right conditions. Don't think it won't happen to you I rode in a car that it happened in. Bad news.
TECH Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 9,246
Likes: 3
From: Troy, AL
Originally Posted by masterdill
Even Ken Kelly himself said setting the shift time to 0 is a bad idea as things can catch given the right conditions. Don't think it won't happen to you I rode in a car that it happened in. Bad news.
I had my settings on 0 when my tranny went out burning up 3 and 4. I then reprogrammed it to 3 after reading somethings on here about it and it still lost 3 and 4 after about 250 miles. I'm not convinced that, that is killing the trannies. Just my experiance.
Page 62 figure 110, whats the date on that book?? drilling holes alone will not take away centrifugal apply while it helps in the hydro department, it does little for the cultchs, this is where your clearance comes into play. secoundly, the stock clutch steels are .106,with .74 frictions. we've had ample luck going to the .94 steels (4l65e) and blues with the 4l65e thickness of .64. you get the best of both worlds here. have your top plate cut and open the clearance up. The 9 pac alto red eagle clutchs......are to thin, but seem to work great in towing applications, I've only run about 10 z-pacs still not enough info to form an opinion, from the outset they look okay.
The biggest problem with these trannies here I go again...is LINE RISE...or lack thereof. There are 11 input controls and 8 output controls on this trans all of them haveing an effect on line rise and shifting of this trans.Thats not mentioning any of the hydralic controls,even your filters have to do with line rise. All of this must be performing flawlessly. And none of it can be left out of the picture with reguards to 3/4 burn up.
I really do agree with the builder comment.....along with that is the shop owners, who's only concern is the bottom line. I do hope this helps and is not intended as a slam on anyone. yall have a good day.....Dave
The biggest problem with these trannies here I go again...is LINE RISE...or lack thereof. There are 11 input controls and 8 output controls on this trans all of them haveing an effect on line rise and shifting of this trans.Thats not mentioning any of the hydralic controls,even your filters have to do with line rise. All of this must be performing flawlessly. And none of it can be left out of the picture with reguards to 3/4 burn up.
I really do agree with the builder comment.....along with that is the shop owners, who's only concern is the bottom line. I do hope this helps and is not intended as a slam on anyone. yall have a good day.....Dave
