Question about stock clutches in a 4L60E
10-12-2015, 03:23 PM
#21
"Thin blue, red, high energy or brown clutches used with thin steels in the 700R4 / 4L60E 3-4 clutch pack will not hold up in a performance / heavy duty 700R4 transmission with over 400 horse power. The reason being the thin steel plates warp up from the extreme heat then the thin clutches burn up. The thin steel plates will not dissipate the heat fast enough." This is bad information. The thin steels "only" warp once the clutch material is ruined. They never warp first.
The problem is a combination of thin and narrow design of the steel plates. Thin red clutches used with thin steels work well in all transmissions, but not in the 700R4 transmission 3-4 clutch pack with high horse power. This is true of the 700R4/4L60E.
For these reasons we only use the more expensive Raybestos Blue Plate Special clutches with full thickness steels or Alto Red Eagle clutches with full thickness Kolene steels in our level 3 and 4, 700 Raptor transmission 3-4 clutch packs. Eight clutches are the maximum number you can use in the 3-4 clutch pack with full thickness steels. Nine clutches used with thin steels will not work with over 400 horse power. It might be true of the Blue Plate Specials, but not true of the BW Hi-E's. I have hundreds of 9 clutch Borg Warner Hi-Energy 3-4 setups out there lasting many years.
I find the "Blue's" to feel funny on a 2-3 shift, Almost a "Slide Bump", If you have ever felt a Blue Friction.....The lining is a super hard resin like material. Exactly. I agree with the "shift feel" of the BPS's. They seem to work well in drag only applications but not for street use. But at 4 times the cost of BW Hi-E's and they do not last as long, what is the point....
In the 700R4/4L60E's the thin steels have never been the problem. It is the clutch material that to a large degree (how much oil it will hold and release) dissipates heat. That is why the Alto Reds do not work here. We discovered this back in 1994-95, that they do not hold much oil and would burn fairly easy with any kind of horsepower. I have a few 10 and a couple of 11 clutch setups doing fine so far using Borg Warner Hi-Energy material. These use only thin .060" or even thinner .050" steels. The more clutch surface area you have the cooler the clutches run for the same torque input.
Example: 6 to 8 clutches is a 33.3% increase in clutch area.
6 to 9 clutches is a 50% increase in clutch area
6 to 10 clutches is a 66.6% increase in clutch area
6 to 11 clutches is a 83.3% increase in clutch area
Better clutch material, bigger boost valves (235-245psi. max.), increase in 3rd accumulator area (Corvette servo, Sonnax servo or Superior servo), increase in 3rd apply oil, addressing 3rd circuit leaks, etc. These all attribute to holding much more power (torque) running cooler and living longer.
The problem is a combination of thin and narrow design of the steel plates. Thin red clutches used with thin steels work well in all transmissions, but not in the 700R4 transmission 3-4 clutch pack with high horse power. This is true of the 700R4/4L60E.
For these reasons we only use the more expensive Raybestos Blue Plate Special clutches with full thickness steels or Alto Red Eagle clutches with full thickness Kolene steels in our level 3 and 4, 700 Raptor transmission 3-4 clutch packs. Eight clutches are the maximum number you can use in the 3-4 clutch pack with full thickness steels. Nine clutches used with thin steels will not work with over 400 horse power. It might be true of the Blue Plate Specials, but not true of the BW Hi-E's. I have hundreds of 9 clutch Borg Warner Hi-Energy 3-4 setups out there lasting many years.
I find the "Blue's" to feel funny on a 2-3 shift, Almost a "Slide Bump", If you have ever felt a Blue Friction.....The lining is a super hard resin like material. Exactly. I agree with the "shift feel" of the BPS's. They seem to work well in drag only applications but not for street use. But at 4 times the cost of BW Hi-E's and they do not last as long, what is the point....
In the 700R4/4L60E's the thin steels have never been the problem. It is the clutch material that to a large degree (how much oil it will hold and release) dissipates heat. That is why the Alto Reds do not work here. We discovered this back in 1994-95, that they do not hold much oil and would burn fairly easy with any kind of horsepower. I have a few 10 and a couple of 11 clutch setups doing fine so far using Borg Warner Hi-Energy material. These use only thin .060" or even thinner .050" steels. The more clutch surface area you have the cooler the clutches run for the same torque input.
Example: 6 to 8 clutches is a 33.3% increase in clutch area.
6 to 9 clutches is a 50% increase in clutch area
6 to 10 clutches is a 66.6% increase in clutch area
6 to 11 clutches is a 83.3% increase in clutch area
Better clutch material, bigger boost valves (235-245psi. max.), increase in 3rd accumulator area (Corvette servo, Sonnax servo or Superior servo), increase in 3rd apply oil, addressing 3rd circuit leaks, etc. These all attribute to holding much more power (torque) running cooler and living longer.
Last edited by PBA; 10-12-2015 at 03:29 PM.
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n2xlr8n66 (06-23-2021)
10-12-2015, 03:46 PM
#22
Moderator
Thank you Dana for again sharing your 34+ years of transmission rebuilding knowledge. And correcting some of the incorrect information that keeps bouncing around on the Net.
As I have documented, I tried Blue frictions a year ago and replaced them this year when a "routine" inspection showed they had worn significantly after only 3000 miles of enthusiastic street driving and 20 track runs.
As I have documented, I tried Blue frictions a year ago and replaced them this year when a "routine" inspection showed they had worn significantly after only 3000 miles of enthusiastic street driving and 20 track runs.
10-15-2015, 08:50 AM
#23
I have been running the BW HE clutches in my current trans and after a mistake during the most recent cam swap over winter when I refilled the trans with the lokar dipstick I found I had been running with not enough oil causing a nasty 2-3 shift flare. The car has slipped HARD on a 2-3 shift at least a dozen times so I was afraid the clutches would be toast even after fixing the fluid issue...
But once filled to the correct level I get the same shift firmness and snappiness it had when they were brand new which was coming up on 3 years ago I think.
I'm pretty well sold on the BW 3-4 setup. I used the standard set but replaced one of the clutches with a thicker .080" clutch disc to tighten the clearance up some.
But once filled to the correct level I get the same shift firmness and snappiness it had when they were brand new which was coming up on 3 years ago I think.
I'm pretty well sold on the BW 3-4 setup. I used the standard set but replaced one of the clutches with a thicker .080" clutch disc to tighten the clearance up some.
10-20-2015, 01:27 PM
#25
Moderator
Thread Starter
This has proven an interesting discussion. I also found this quote by a "builder":
All sounds good. But, one lie I can verify easily:
I just don't know who to believe.
It is my personal experience that I have NEVER had a transmission with Z-PAK fail 3&4 clutches. After replacing pinion, pump, sun shell ... 3&4 clutch-pack was the culprit (twice). Those transmissions with the Z-Pak I've only every had freshened and seen some warp-age in one clutch.
With the engine I am having tuned now, no 4L60E may hold out. But, with all the information rattling around out there, and my personal experience, I don't know WHAT's best to put in it ... and some builders make it sound like voodoo. Only THEY know to clean every nook and cranny ... only THEY know how to get tolerances right ... only THEY know the parts subject to stress and failure. :-/
Only when I've been able to use a builder that let me watch what he put in it, or was willing to stand behind me coming back to him and seeing what was there if it failed, have I had the transmission last more than a year.
I appreciate the discussion. And some of you make for convincing arguments. I want to trust ...
RAYBESTOS AND ALTO 3-4 CLUTCH PACKS: This is one that I will admit bit me pretty hard. I swore by the Raybestos Z-Pak for a few years. The thought process in both cases is to replace the standard 6 clutch arrangement, and try to jam a higher clutch count in the same amount of space. You may not even have to have transmission knowledge to understand the problem that causes. When you try to put 9 clutches in a space that was made for 6, you have to make the steels substantially thinner. Stock 4L60E steels are .102", Alto steels are .063". What happens when you subject a thinner piece of steel to heat?...It has more tendancy to warp.
I knew this was an issue with the Alto packs, because of the number I had taken apart with all the steels warped up. When they warp, they take up all the clearance and the pack burns up. Unfortunately, I fell victim to some cleaver marketing from Raybestos for the Z-Pak. The Z-pak was a completely new design because it doesn't use a typical clutch steel layout. It uses single side clutches with alternation inside and outside splines. The idea itself wasn't new. the TH440 has been using them for many years in the 3rd clutches. The idea worked great in them, and now Chrysler uses them in the 48RE transmissions. The Z-Pak also included it's own pressure plates, and the lining material was carbon. I thought maybe the design would help with the tendancy for warpage. Boy, was I wrong! We started seeing these things come back.
At first I tried to find a different reason, but there was only one. The material was too thin. Then, mysteriously the Z-Paks became unavailable anywhere. They stopped production for a while. During that time, I switched to the regular clutch steel arrangement with 6 .080" Kolene coated steels and 7 Borg Warner High Energy frictions. '080" is the thickness of a factory 700R4 3-4 steel. After 6 years of using this arrangement, I have eliminated all 3-4 failures...Even in the highest HP, and fastest applications...
I knew this was an issue with the Alto packs, because of the number I had taken apart with all the steels warped up. When they warp, they take up all the clearance and the pack burns up. Unfortunately, I fell victim to some cleaver marketing from Raybestos for the Z-Pak. The Z-pak was a completely new design because it doesn't use a typical clutch steel layout. It uses single side clutches with alternation inside and outside splines. The idea itself wasn't new. the TH440 has been using them for many years in the 3rd clutches. The idea worked great in them, and now Chrysler uses them in the 48RE transmissions. The Z-Pak also included it's own pressure plates, and the lining material was carbon. I thought maybe the design would help with the tendancy for warpage. Boy, was I wrong! We started seeing these things come back.
At first I tried to find a different reason, but there was only one. The material was too thin. Then, mysteriously the Z-Paks became unavailable anywhere. They stopped production for a while. During that time, I switched to the regular clutch steel arrangement with 6 .080" Kolene coated steels and 7 Borg Warner High Energy frictions. '080" is the thickness of a factory 700R4 3-4 steel. After 6 years of using this arrangement, I have eliminated all 3-4 failures...Even in the highest HP, and fastest applications...
mysteriously the Z-Paks became unavailable anywhere.
It is my personal experience that I have NEVER had a transmission with Z-PAK fail 3&4 clutches. After replacing pinion, pump, sun shell ... 3&4 clutch-pack was the culprit (twice). Those transmissions with the Z-Pak I've only every had freshened and seen some warp-age in one clutch.
With the engine I am having tuned now, no 4L60E may hold out. But, with all the information rattling around out there, and my personal experience, I don't know WHAT's best to put in it ... and some builders make it sound like voodoo. Only THEY know to clean every nook and cranny ... only THEY know how to get tolerances right ... only THEY know the parts subject to stress and failure. :-/
Only when I've been able to use a builder that let me watch what he put in it, or was willing to stand behind me coming back to him and seeing what was there if it failed, have I had the transmission last more than a year.
I appreciate the discussion. And some of you make for convincing arguments. I want to trust ...
02-24-2016, 10:10 AM
#26
On The Tree
My shop still builds a couple hundred 4L60E's every year, but the Dodge 47RE's and 48RE's are our main market. Both of these markets are absolutely flooded with marketing hype regarding fancy clutches and bands. Once you get the clutch count right, and the hydraulics sorted out (pressures, shift calibrations, internal leaks, etc.) for the load you're asking the clutch to carry, you don't need anything fancy whatsoever.
In the 4L60E 3-4 clutch, I exclusively run a seven disc stack...in every one of them. I use seven Borg Warner high-energy frictions (the .080" 4L60E frictions, not the thinner 4L65E plates), six .076" 700R4 steels (standard steels...kolene is a waste of money, in my opinion), an OEM .193" backing plate, an OEM .220" apply plate, and the OEM .093" snap ring. With a "7" apply ring, in a late model 700R4/4L60E input drum, this will stack at .030-.035" clearance every time.
The ONLY Alto product I will use...in anything...is their wide carbon 4L60E band. I have had good performance and service out of those. I will not run then "red" lining at all.
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matermark (07-11-2021)