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I don’t think that is your problem, if the clutch pack didn’t show any wear at all on tear down. What I gathered from what you are saying is the clutch pack did not apply at all. I would think that if you had a hydraulic leak the clutch pack would at least try to apply and then burn up. So with that said I would think that something is either misassembled in the input drum. That is why I suggested the test in post # 74, or something is wrong with the valve body. Did you disassemble the valve body or install a shift kit? Are you using a trans manual that will show the valve body brake down? It is easy to install a valve/spring backwards if not paying close attention.
I was looking at a valve body diagram with all the booster sleeves taken apart when I was putting everything back together, so I know I put all the booster valves and springs back together the right way. I will tear it down again and double-check, but should I use a shift kit? I didn't think to get one. If you think I should, could you send me a link for the recommended kit?
And yes you are right, I said, at least from what I understand from all the tests that I have done, that the 3-4 clutch is not applying at all. However, I am just skeptical of my input drum since I did get 1 or 2 small bubbles upon testing it with fluid at the top. I will definitely do the testing you recommended, I just haven't gotten to it yet because other things came up.
The testing as in post # 74 will let you know with confidence that you assembled the drum correctly and that it is working properly.
This is not you problem but take you time and make sure that the input sprag is assembled properly. It is easy to get confused which way the gears turn it you just glance at the assembly pics.
As for the input shaft leaking you can have the shaft pressed out, clean in with some carb or brake cleaner, apply some red lock tight on the splines and press it back in. Let it set over night and retest. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I would not worry about 1 or 2 small bubbles, but that has to be you call. I definitely would not buy a new drum because of that. Until you perform the test and check the valve body all anyone can do is speculate as to what you problem is.
I have seen it mentioned a few times but have not seen the op confirm it yet...... assemble the input drum and air check the 3-4 clutch pack. If it's engaging put the pump on and air check again threw the pump and go from there.
The testing as in post # 74 will let you know with confidence that you assembled the drum correctly and that it is working properly.
This is not you problem but take you time and make sure that the input sprag is assembled properly. It is easy to get confused which way the gears turn it you just glance at the assembly pics.
As for the input shaft leaking you can have the shaft pressed out, clean in with some carb or brake cleaner, apply some red lock tight on the splines and press it back in. Let it set over night and retest. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I would not worry about 1 or 2 small bubbles, but that has to be you call. I definitely would not buy a new drum because of that. Until you perform the test and check the valve body all anyone can do is speculate as to what you problem is.
Do some testing and get back with us.
Okay so I confirmed that everything is working properly. I checked with just the input drum and shaft, did the air tests on each hole and everything applied properly. I now definitely see that I have way too much clearance for the 3-4, so I will put the extra 3-4 clutch/steels in upon reassembly.
I also put the reverse drum and pump on and checked using the holes in the pump. Everything including the reverse is applying from what I could tell from seeing inside and hearing.
Now that I think about it, the two air bubbles I got, I did the liquid test with the bearing (for the reverse drum) in, so I think maybe those two bubbles were just excess air getting pushed out of the bearing. I haven't been able to get any bubbles without the washer or bearing in so, I think I am good on sealing.
Anything else I should check? Would you recommend changing the Teflon seals even though the old ones seem to be working okay?
I always change the Teflon seals, but you tested them and they are sealing enough to apply the clutches when testing. Now you need to go through the valve body and check everything.
I went ahead and replaced them anyways, I didn't make the cleanest job of it, but they aren't going to get cut or broken when I test everything.
I won't be getting to the valve body this weekend, that's going to be next weekend's task. I will take pictures of it disassembled so we can know for sure I did it properly or not, but if I am going to do that, should I order a shift upgrade kit to replace all the springs? If so, do you have one in mind?
Well I must've messed up the ring second from the bottom (so from the drum), because I did the test and 3-4 isn't engaging with the pump on. Also this specific ring does not rotate freely like the other three.
Well I must've messed up the ring second from the bottom (so from the drum), because I did the test and 3-4 isn't engaging with the pump on. Also this specific ring does not rotate freely like the other three.
I'm gonna say "good" as this test failure might help you pinpoint the problem.
Have you checked that the inside of the stator shaft is smooth? This is where the teflon rings run.
(If you replaced the entire, sorry, I've been busy and not keeping track of every thread.)
Yeah I checked that out on the first go, it was smooth then and I haven't noticed it being rough or scraped this time. None of the rings were cut, I just know I screwed up that second one when I put it on because I must've cut up the inside of it.
So as requested, here is the tear down of the valve body. I had to drill out one of the plugs (no damage to the valve body) because it was stuck in the slot (I didn't take it out on the first go or any of the sleeves inside because of this issue). So I will have to get one of those. I got a shift kit, specifically the TransGo one, so I will be putting those upgrades in next week.
Front (of truck) side of the valve body. The second plug down after the solenoid is the one I drilled to get out.
Here is the back (of truck) side of the valve body. I tried to keep all the shafts in order, however I could've screwed them up for this picture. Also, the small spring held by the accumulator housing is in the accumulator housing. That other spring present in the picture is the one that hold the sleeve deeper in the body.
Also, I fixed the Teflon seal of concern and the input drum is now working as it should with the pump on.
Look at the Sonnax instructions page 7, that I attached in post # 11. It looks like you may be missing the outer spring in position # 14. From what I can tell all else looks good. When you are reassembling make sure each valve can move under its own weight or at a minimum can be moved with a small pin magnet. If you have a valve that is sticking you can run this, Superior Bench Buddy (Superior BB100), through the vale body bore to free it up.
Look at the Sonnax instructions page 7, that I attached in post # 11. It looks like you may be missing the outer spring in position # 14. From what I can tell all else looks good. When you are reassembling make sure each valve can move under its own weight or at a minimum can be moved with a small pin magnet. If you have a valve that is sticking you can run this, Superior Bench Buddy (Superior BB100), through the vale body bore to free it up.
You are referring to ATSG #361 the "Low Overrun Valve".
The OP has it and its spring sitting on the Forward Accumulator Cover.
So I think he has everything, but I wouldn't hire him as a photographer.
So I noticed that I have less play between the pump stator and input drum shaft after putting everything in the case. I assume this is because I installed that extra 3-4 friction/steel, but could anyone confirm this for me?
Hmmm, I don't think you are looking at this correctly.
You should be checking the clearance of the 3/4 clutch before installing the input drum.
To install an extra 3/4 fiction/steel you almost certainly have to switch all the frictions and/or steels to thinner ones.
Hmmm, I don't think you are looking at this correctly.
You should be checking the clearance of the 3/4 clutch before installing the input drum.
To install an extra 3/4 fiction/steel you almost certainly have to switch all the frictions and/or steels to thinner ones.
I think you were misunderstanding what I was saying. I did that in the input drum and that was fine.
The guy in the Transmission Bench series had said to check how much the input shaft moves out when you put it in the case and bolts the front pump on. Basically, you put a pair of locking pliers on the input shaft, tug it out and measured the clearance between the locking pliers and the stator shaft on the front pump. It's supposed to be between 0.015" to 0.035". I don't know if this is a commonly known test for clearance after everything is assembled (minus the valve body).
At about 41 minutes into the video (right at the end) he does this check. (Project 4L60E part 2 lesson 7)
That is the input shaft end play. The video has a clever way to measure it with feeler blades although I find a dial indicator easy to use too.
The end play is set by the "selective washer" which sits under the torrington bearing where the input shaft enters the input drum.
Personally, I check the end play before installing the 3/4 clutch as it is then trivial to install the input drum/reverse drum combo, then the pump and measure the end play. If needed you then change to a different selective washer as various thicknesses are available. (I think a kit of different ones is available too.)
Personally I aim for .012 end play with brand new bearings and parts because after just a few miles it will increase to .015 as everything seats.
Going back to your original question, no change in frictions is going to change the end play.
Okay thanks, I might need to recheck that everything went in place fine because it doesn't seem that I am getting any end play, then again it could be very small and I might not be noticing it. The input drum/reverse drum were sitting in the case just as low (below the bolt holes for the front pump) as before when I took them out, so it seems that all the 3-4 steels lined up.
Hey, I want to say thank you to everyone who has been helping me along in troubleshooting my transmission. In the end, it must have been simply just that check ball that I was talking about. Although I did make some other adjustments on the second try, I really think that that was the major issue. The truck is working and shifting and driving now and I'm a very happy man.
Thanks again all, I appreciated all the help and input.
03-16-2017, 07:26 PM
