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Having built my first 400 earlier this year, I've just now pulled it out for a couple of reasons. One is, I had a sudden driveline failure and decided to take a look to make sure the low roller clutch is still good... but will likely replace it anyway even if seems ok for no other reason than...im already here. The 2nd reason is, I always thought 2nd gear felt fairly weak under heavy boost. Upon teardown...i can clearly see why. I underestimated the ole 6 ohh it seems, to the point....if you are making 750ish/1ktq (wheels)..... do the 4 clutch intermediate. I did do a 6 clutch forward and direct... but figured at my level, figured I was fine with a standard intermediate....WRONG. Seen guys elsewhere making big power, and supposedly having no issues. My personal experience tells me otherwise. With that said, there was virtually zero wear on the forward as expected.... and zero wear on the direct as well. 4 clutch setup is en route as I type this.
4 clutch won't hurt but it's not necessary at 750-1000.
What did the forwards look like?
Forward and direct packs look as new as when i built it. I measured them, and they are at .0795 (some still .080)... they were .080 new. Personally, I don't think it's horsepower (only making 745 right now) that hurt the intermediate.... but torque. The way I have it geared, coupled with the weight of the car may have helped harm it as well. Car is 3750...2:73 for gears, makes a little over 1k torque.
1k or even 1.5K torque isn't killing a 3 pack intermediate if the pressure is adequate.
You need to look at fluid pickup.
I have to admit, I find that odd. Reason is, most guys... with the exception being all out race cars, or a few max effort street cars, don't make anywhere near 1,500ft/lb but have converted to a 4 clutch setup. Even many vendors convert over on their lower level offerings. I'm not calling you a liar btw. And wouldn't a fluid issue manifest itself in the forward drum, being that it's always on... and not a shifting clutch?
I have to admit, I find that odd. Reason is, most guys... with the exception being all out race cars, or a few max effort street cars, don't make anywhere near 1,500ft/lb but have converted to a 4 clutch setup. Even many vendors convert over on their lower level offerings. I'm not calling you a liar btw. And wouldn't a fluid issue manifest itself in the forward drum, being that it's always on... and not a shifting clutch?
We put 4 clutches in lower power offerings also but 3 will hold your power and in some cases last longer.
The forwards will show issues with low fluid level in some cases. The intermediates show it first because they are shifting under the hardest acceleration and under the most slosh effect.
I've been doing this for a couple of days.
We put 4 clutches in lower power offerings also but 3 will hold your power and in some cases last longer.
The forwards will show issues with low fluid level in some cases. The intermediates show it first because they are shifting under the hardest acceleration and under the most slosh effect.
I've been doing this for a couple of days.
I knew the "I've been doing this for many many years" peice was coming. Just chatting/ thinking out loud here, doesn't mean a person is calling you out/bashing you when doing so. I said what I said, because if a 3 clutch will hold what you say it will hold, then why do so many shops (including your own) .....and DIYERS run a 4 clutch if it's not necessary? When something doesn't make sense to me, I ask questions. I don't just sit back and act like I understand, that's not how I learn.
About the fluid, I put a deep pan along with the required pickup extension on the transmission. But... there was no extension for the valvebody to filter peice (the metal tube that goes through the filter to valvebody). Seems that would need to be longer too.... but I never seemed to have any pressure loss from the filter getting uncovered. Do you leave the factory length tube in your units? If that's proprietary...i understand.
About the fluid, I put a deep pan along with the required pickup extension on the transmission. But... there was no extension for the valvebody to filter peice (the metal tube that goes through the filter to valvebody). Seems that would need to be longer too.... but I never seemed to have any pressure loss from the filter getting uncovered. Do you leave the factory length tube in your units? If that's proprietary...i understand.
Deep pan gets a deep tube.
OEM did it this way.
Probably a good part of your issue.
4 clutch intermediate isn't too detrimental. Only affects parasitic drag in first gear. On cars were chasing ET it gets 3. Even at 1000+.
We use 4 on standard builds because I prefer the HE clutches, so we use a 4L80E setup.
If your running a stamped steel intermediate piston, Check it for separation, While this is not a out of control problem that happens a lot.....It just happens from time to time & needs to be checked!
Replace with Aluminum if possible even if it's still together.
If your running a stamped steel intermediate piston, Check it for separation, While this is not a out of control problem that happens a lot.....It just happens from time to time & needs to be checked!
Replace with Aluminum if possible even if it's still together.
1k or even 1.5K torque isn't killing a 3 pack intermediate if the pressure is adequate.
You need to look at fluid pickup.
I just finished the build yesterday, and was driving the car around today. 2nd gear is NIGHT AND DAY different... for the better, no sliding into 2nd anymore...VERY positive. I was poking around elsewhere and came across this below. Just curious, but why the about face with the 4 clutch intermediate?
I just finished the build yesterday, and was driving the car around today. 2nd gear is NIGHT AND DAY different... for the better, no sliding into 2nd anymore...VERY positive. I was poking around elsewhere and came across this below. Just curious, but why the about face with the 4 clutch intermediate?
09-20-2017, 01:10 AM
Th400 data point/tear down 
