Torque Converter / Gearing Question
Typically/generally/'rule of thumb',if a convertor is 'on shelf' ready to be shipped,those are the ones to avoid. Custom convertors,and really calling them custom might imply that they're exotic and for racing only,are for typical street use too. Tell the manufacturer(such as FTI,CircleD,Yank,Coan) what you want to do and how you'll be using it and they'll spec one.
TECH Resident
Joined: Oct 2014
Posts: 898
Likes: 71
Look at all the guys that are fast/efficient and look at what torque converter brands they're using. You don't here B&M or TCI much... if at all.
You here PTC, FTI, Yank, Circle D, etc.
As I posted before I've owned a B&M and an FTI. The FTI is far superior in all functions. It's like comparing a McDonald's cheeseburger to a angus ribeye steak.
You here PTC, FTI, Yank, Circle D, etc.
As I posted before I've owned a B&M and an FTI. The FTI is far superior in all functions. It's like comparing a McDonald's cheeseburger to a angus ribeye steak.
Typically/generally/'rule of thumb',if a convertor is 'on shelf' ready to be shipped,those are the ones to avoid. Custom convertors,and really calling them custom might imply that they're exotic and for racing only,are for typical street use too. Tell the manufacturer(such as FTI,CircleD,Yank,Coan) what you want to do and how you'll be using it and they'll spec one.
I looked at the 'transmission specialty site. 4L80E convertor 12" 2400-2700 just under $400. $400,you get what you pay for,NOT MUCH,not a performance convertor. As with so many before you on this site that 'cheaped out' and then regretted it,because they had to do it TWICE,so will you. You posted to get opinions/recommendations/help,yet you seem resistant to what we're telling you. I could pull up many threads referencing this.
I already stated I was ok with getting a different TC.
My original question was actually what stall to go with my combo to maintain some driveabiilty yet still not be a turd from stoplight to stoplight. Seems the answer isnt really easy to come by, which I kind of suspected just based on the reading I did do. I dont plan on drag racing ever. I would like to do some road course stuff.
I think it's obvious that most people here have no idea what goes on inside a torque converter let alone what makes one brand better than another. That is why you are not getting technical responses. If they would just admit that, it would save everyone some time. The main takeaway is that the newer converters are way more streetable since they don't slip like crazy while just cruising around like the older tech converters.
^^^ that. I can't imagine any aftermarket convertor manufacturer telling internal spec 'secrets' for the competition to see. Although I believe CircleD,Yank,& FTI have threads showing what goes into their convertors,what parts are used and modifications,but tech specs you're looking for,NO.
My recommendation to OP,find some cars with aftermarket convertors and ask to get a ride in city traffic. Things to note in a 'ride'. Cam(reason-a wild cam will not have the low end torque of a stock cam),brand of convertor,rated stall of the convertor,STR of the convertor,and rear end gearing. I've done this locally for people unsure of what convertor to get,I'm stock engine,Yank SS3600 convertor,standard STR,and 3.23 gearing.
I think it's obvious that most people here have no idea what goes on inside a torque converter let alone what makes one brand better than another. That is why you are not getting technical responses. If they would just admit that, it would save everyone some time. The main takeaway is that the newer converters are way more streetable since they don't slip like crazy while just cruising around like the older tech converters.
What is so difficult about calling a converter company and ordering something thats going to work? You're not going to open it up and see whats inside.
TECH Junkie
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,046
Likes: 713
From: Poplarville, MS
I'm in no way obligated to spend a **** load of my free time explaining what I know only to get an "I don't understand", or a smartass remark in return. Either is anyone else unless they might get a sale out of it. Maybe thats why no one has explained it.
What is so difficult about calling a converter company and ordering something thats going to work? You're not going to open it up and see whats inside.
What is so difficult about calling a converter company and ordering something thats going to work? You're not going to open it up and see whats inside.
I'm in no way obligated to spend a **** load of my free time explaining what I know only to get an "I don't understand", or a smartass remark in return. Either is anyone else unless they might get a sale out of it. Maybe thats why no one has explained it.
What is so difficult about calling a converter company and ordering something thats going to work? You're not going to open it up and see whats inside.
What is so difficult about calling a converter company and ordering something thats going to work? You're not going to open it up and see whats inside.
I can call converter companies all day long and get their responses but I also like responses from real world users.
TECH Junkie
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,605
Likes: 1,316
From: Iowa
Smokey, Can I ask you how many fluid dynamics courses you've taken? Or if you haven't been formally schooled (which is fine, lots of smart guys aren't) how many fluid dynamics books have you read? How well do you understand how viscous wall effects, pump slip of a fluid, local and general pressure differentials, vortex flow, etc etc etc work.
How much research have you done on your own on this topic by yourself? If you want a super technical answer...it's already been answered and is out there...all you need to do is read and research. And I wouldn't recommend forums...I would recommend published scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed. It's where youre going to get the most technical answer with the most considerations and the most data to back up claims.
I'm not being an ***, but I don't want to type of multiple pages trying to explain how a torque converter works in a technical sense...especially not covering every detailed and complicated aspect...if 99% of people wont understand it. Hell, I've taken the classes, read the books, and have read the articles...and I'm still missing quite a bit. Most of how a converter is spec'd is by trial and error of different combos and tracking what works for different things.
There are some general rules that i've already talked about to give you the basics
-converter diameter
-fin angles
-blade count
Those are the big 3. That's how most converter companies manipulate the converter to match your combo.
They understand that going with a smaller diameter converter with a more agressive fin angle will mean that they can get a converter that still flashes to a high stall like they desire, and yet still be efficient when at coupling speed
They can see to it that the opposite can be achieved. Go with a large diameter converter, use LAZY fin angles...you'll still have that same stall as with the smaller converter...but it's going to be less efficient up top.
They understand when a converter is too small and just doesn't have the physical area needed to couple the power...so they move up in diameter...etc etc etc
They know how to make changes of each component to give a desired result. They have experience and that's what you pay for with a converter company.
So there, You've been given the basic tools, and you know what the major changes are...now strap on your work boots (or thinking cap...idk), sit down to a computer, and find some technical resources...order a fluid dynamics book (I can give you titles and page numbers from one of the 5 I have on my shelf) or watch a freakin you tube video. This "technical answer" you want so bad is already out there...we don't need to spoon feed it here.
How much research have you done on your own on this topic by yourself? If you want a super technical answer...it's already been answered and is out there...all you need to do is read and research. And I wouldn't recommend forums...I would recommend published scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed. It's where youre going to get the most technical answer with the most considerations and the most data to back up claims.
I'm not being an ***, but I don't want to type of multiple pages trying to explain how a torque converter works in a technical sense...especially not covering every detailed and complicated aspect...if 99% of people wont understand it. Hell, I've taken the classes, read the books, and have read the articles...and I'm still missing quite a bit. Most of how a converter is spec'd is by trial and error of different combos and tracking what works for different things.
There are some general rules that i've already talked about to give you the basics
-converter diameter
-fin angles
-blade count
Those are the big 3. That's how most converter companies manipulate the converter to match your combo.
They understand that going with a smaller diameter converter with a more agressive fin angle will mean that they can get a converter that still flashes to a high stall like they desire, and yet still be efficient when at coupling speed
They can see to it that the opposite can be achieved. Go with a large diameter converter, use LAZY fin angles...you'll still have that same stall as with the smaller converter...but it's going to be less efficient up top.
They understand when a converter is too small and just doesn't have the physical area needed to couple the power...so they move up in diameter...etc etc etc
They know how to make changes of each component to give a desired result. They have experience and that's what you pay for with a converter company.
So there, You've been given the basic tools, and you know what the major changes are...now strap on your work boots (or thinking cap...idk), sit down to a computer, and find some technical resources...order a fluid dynamics book (I can give you titles and page numbers from one of the 5 I have on my shelf) or watch a freakin you tube video. This "technical answer" you want so bad is already out there...we don't need to spoon feed it here.
As others have mentioned a converter isn't a place to cheap out on. I definitely recommend a high quality billet unit such as a Yank, Circle D, FTI, etc.
If possible I definitely recommend riding in or driving someone's car with the potential converters you are considering, no better way to know what you're getting into.
I've ran/experienced a few converters . My current Yank PT4000 and 3.73 gear combo is too loose for my liking and for me it took the enjoyment out of the car so I no longer drive it. Absolute beast at the track and for roll racing however. When I was younger and racing the car more I absolutely loved it but now that the car is more of a cruiser I cannot stand it, throttle response just feels so soft all the time unless I'm burying the pedal. I once had a Yank SS3600 with 3.73s and it was a blast on the street. It did not hold a candle to the PT4000 when racing but around town it was considerably more enjoyable. The car was way more responsive, basically felt a lot more "torquey", the throttle response was on point. I plan to go back to one eventually. My best friend has a Yank SS3200 with 3.23s and you hardly even know it is there, would be great for a daily driver but isn't quite enough converter for a weekend cruiser IMO. For a weekend cruiser I think something in the 3400-3600 range is about perfect. For a street/strip car I think 3600-4000 is more ideal. Just my opinion based upon my experiences. Everyone has different tolerance levels, etc. so keep that in mind when assessing recommendations from myself and others. That's why I recommend doing a ride with or driving someone's car first.
As for your gears, keep them for now. Put the proper converter in there first then access the need for different gears. Your car is light, it will take off like a bat outta hell with a good converter with your current 3.32s.
Edit: Here’s a great thread that outlines the differences between cheap converters and high quality ones:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
If possible I definitely recommend riding in or driving someone's car with the potential converters you are considering, no better way to know what you're getting into.
I've ran/experienced a few converters . My current Yank PT4000 and 3.73 gear combo is too loose for my liking and for me it took the enjoyment out of the car so I no longer drive it. Absolute beast at the track and for roll racing however. When I was younger and racing the car more I absolutely loved it but now that the car is more of a cruiser I cannot stand it, throttle response just feels so soft all the time unless I'm burying the pedal. I once had a Yank SS3600 with 3.73s and it was a blast on the street. It did not hold a candle to the PT4000 when racing but around town it was considerably more enjoyable. The car was way more responsive, basically felt a lot more "torquey", the throttle response was on point. I plan to go back to one eventually. My best friend has a Yank SS3200 with 3.23s and you hardly even know it is there, would be great for a daily driver but isn't quite enough converter for a weekend cruiser IMO. For a weekend cruiser I think something in the 3400-3600 range is about perfect. For a street/strip car I think 3600-4000 is more ideal. Just my opinion based upon my experiences. Everyone has different tolerance levels, etc. so keep that in mind when assessing recommendations from myself and others. That's why I recommend doing a ride with or driving someone's car first.
As for your gears, keep them for now. Put the proper converter in there first then access the need for different gears. Your car is light, it will take off like a bat outta hell with a good converter with your current 3.32s.
Edit: Here’s a great thread that outlines the differences between cheap converters and high quality ones:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...education.html
Last edited by StealthFormula; Jun 29, 2018 at 01:27 PM.
Smokey, Can I ask you how many fluid dynamics courses you've taken? Or if you haven't been formally schooled (which is fine, lots of smart guys aren't) how many fluid dynamics books have you read? How well do you understand how viscous wall effects, pump slip of a fluid, local and general pressure differentials, vortex flow, etc etc etc work.
How much research have you done on your own on this topic by yourself? If you want a super technical answer...it's already been answered and is out there...all you need to do is read and research. And I wouldn't recommend forums...I would recommend published scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed. It's where youre going to get the most technical answer with the most considerations and the most data to back up claims.
I'm not being an ***, but I don't want to type of multiple pages trying to explain how a torque converter works in a technical sense...especially not covering every detailed and complicated aspect...if 99% of people wont understand it. Hell, I've taken the classes, read the books, and have read the articles...and I'm still missing quite a bit. Most of how a converter is spec'd is by trial and error of different combos and tracking what works for different things.
There are some general rules that i've already talked about to give you the basics
-converter diameter
-fin angles
-blade count
Those are the big 3. That's how most converter companies manipulate the converter to match your combo.
They understand that going with a smaller diameter converter with a more agressive fin angle will mean that they can get a converter that still flashes to a high stall like they desire, and yet still be efficient when at coupling speed
They can see to it that the opposite can be achieved. Go with a large diameter converter, use LAZY fin angles...you'll still have that same stall as with the smaller converter...but it's going to be less efficient up top.
They understand when a converter is too small and just doesn't have the physical area needed to couple the power...so they move up in diameter...etc etc etc
They know how to make changes of each component to give a desired result. They have experience and that's what you pay for with a converter company.
So there, You've been given the basic tools, and you know what the major changes are...now strap on your work boots (or thinking cap...idk), sit down to a computer, and find some technical resources...order a fluid dynamics book (I can give you titles and page numbers from one of the 5 I have on my shelf) or watch a freakin you tube video. This "technical answer" you want so bad is already out there...we don't need to spoon feed it here.
How much research have you done on your own on this topic by yourself? If you want a super technical answer...it's already been answered and is out there...all you need to do is read and research. And I wouldn't recommend forums...I would recommend published scholarly articles that have been peer reviewed. It's where youre going to get the most technical answer with the most considerations and the most data to back up claims.
I'm not being an ***, but I don't want to type of multiple pages trying to explain how a torque converter works in a technical sense...especially not covering every detailed and complicated aspect...if 99% of people wont understand it. Hell, I've taken the classes, read the books, and have read the articles...and I'm still missing quite a bit. Most of how a converter is spec'd is by trial and error of different combos and tracking what works for different things.
There are some general rules that i've already talked about to give you the basics
-converter diameter
-fin angles
-blade count
Those are the big 3. That's how most converter companies manipulate the converter to match your combo.
They understand that going with a smaller diameter converter with a more agressive fin angle will mean that they can get a converter that still flashes to a high stall like they desire, and yet still be efficient when at coupling speed
They can see to it that the opposite can be achieved. Go with a large diameter converter, use LAZY fin angles...you'll still have that same stall as with the smaller converter...but it's going to be less efficient up top.
They understand when a converter is too small and just doesn't have the physical area needed to couple the power...so they move up in diameter...etc etc etc
They know how to make changes of each component to give a desired result. They have experience and that's what you pay for with a converter company.
So there, You've been given the basic tools, and you know what the major changes are...now strap on your work boots (or thinking cap...idk), sit down to a computer, and find some technical resources...order a fluid dynamics book (I can give you titles and page numbers from one of the 5 I have on my shelf) or watch a freakin you tube video. This "technical answer" you want so bad is already out there...we don't need to spoon feed it here.
ok now to the the OP all the responses you got on here are what a forum is for but the "technical" answers you supposedly seek are found on most of the converter companies websites so go do you research there for those answers you seek and on forums such as LS1tech your going to get more real world advice unless of course you work for one of those old school companies and are just looking to stir the pot a little than Im sure this thread will be locked and you will be banned lol
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,216
Likes: 236
From: Wichita KS / Rancho San Diego
I'm going to add something though TCI is no longer in question, but a lot has been said in this thread about their converters. This is strictly anecdotal from personal experience, not peer reviewed, and I don't have any fluid dynamics books on my shelves.
I ran a TCI SF 3000 for three years and 24k miles with regular visits to the dragstrip. Yes, I tuned the tranny for it and had the shift kit modified for it as well. It felt great in daily driving and worked great at the track. I decided to upgrade to a Yank SS3600 for two reasons: the stamped steel front cover and resultant weak lock-up clutch on the TCI, and the hope of better performance with the Yank.
The Yank gave me NOTHING at the track. It flashed 500rpm higher, but that didn't translate to better 60's or anything else. Shift extension and all other performance parameters were identical. In daily driving, it was so similar as to be almost indistinguishable, just ever so slightly looser. I remember forgetting that I had a new converter when driving the car around.
I wouldn't run a TCI or any other 10" non-billet converter because of the threat of the clutch disintegrating and taking out the transmission. Aside from that, in terms of performance and driveability, the TCI was in every case equal to the Yank.
I ran a TCI SF 3000 for three years and 24k miles with regular visits to the dragstrip. Yes, I tuned the tranny for it and had the shift kit modified for it as well. It felt great in daily driving and worked great at the track. I decided to upgrade to a Yank SS3600 for two reasons: the stamped steel front cover and resultant weak lock-up clutch on the TCI, and the hope of better performance with the Yank.
The Yank gave me NOTHING at the track. It flashed 500rpm higher, but that didn't translate to better 60's or anything else. Shift extension and all other performance parameters were identical. In daily driving, it was so similar as to be almost indistinguishable, just ever so slightly looser. I remember forgetting that I had a new converter when driving the car around.
I wouldn't run a TCI or any other 10" non-billet converter because of the threat of the clutch disintegrating and taking out the transmission. Aside from that, in terms of performance and driveability, the TCI was in every case equal to the Yank.
I don't recommend TCI convertors, but some are good, it seems to be a 'luck of the draw'. I've seen 2 TCI SF 3000 totally different,one loose as hell and one tight. Both stock cars with 3.73s'. It's difficult to recommend a brand that isn't consistent.