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Ok and not arguing I'm truely curious. But do you think if you installed the springs you would have a different outcome with the performance or longevity of your gearbox.
I just want to state my car makes 400rwhp which is estimated almost 550 at engine. Car has run multiple 11.4 at 119mph full street trim with a stock box with 160,000km. Only a cooler, stall converter and tune. And has lived to tell the tail for 10 years. The only reason I'm building a 2nd box for swap out is i have 2nd gear slip and metal in oil so I'd rather just change it out and rebuild it due to age and wear.
I think these are good boxes with yes a few problem that pop up. They can be made better 100% just like the LS1. Good platform with room to grow. If somebody can straight out say those springs will kill your box I'll leave them out with pleasure.
Here is a recent dyno sheet to prove my HP and torque and rpm 7400. Just a power run to check if my valve springs went soft due to age and make sure the engine was still making good power. Lost a few horse power over the years but might of come down to needed a few more runs to clean out motor or fuel quality etc
If you think those springs are so beneficial why not buy the higher rate springs from sonnax and put the stock 3-4 piston return springs back in......
You think you need a spring in that area, put the stronger sonnax springs there and leave the piston return springs stock.
You're dealing with the most problematic clutch in that transmission, why on earth would you ADD spring pressure of any amount is beyond me. Spring pressure that works against 3rd apply.
Is your 3rd clutch going to apply faster if you have more hp? NOPE. Higher RPM? NOPE.
Can you get a shift flare from 3rd not applying fast enough, YUP. Lets add more resistance to it applying, great idea.
I'll bet you, even if you don't build your own instructions, are going to have a weird feeling 2-3 shift, the odds are high. Ask Dana what the feed size should be with extra 3-4 return springs. I guarantee he doesn't have a number for that.
You know whats really shitty? You hate me for being the guy who's trying to prevent you from ******* your transmission up. I could (probably should) sit back and laugh at this **** and think **** it, not my BOX.
With a leak free circuit, increased line pressure and upgraded springs how much apply force do you think it generates?
VS
How much opposing force do the release springs have?
Would be like a midget playing tug of war with Andre the Giant. It's just there as a little security to prevent drag. My opinion is I've probably doubled the apply force so who cares if I leave something in that steals a little away
My box in my car doesn't have a 3/4 problem and the box I'm rebuilding didn't have a 3/4 problem and both have springs fitted. The 3rd box I got for free to strip some hard parts out of did have a burnt and mishaped 3/4 and had no return springs fitted. I very much doubt that was why they burnt but it was a observation.
You know whats really shitty? You hate me for being the guy who's trying to prevent you from ******* your transmission up. I could (probably should) sit back and laugh at this **** and think **** it, not my BOX.
No hate brother. At this point I'm stuck on difference of opinion.
I can see how leaving it out has its benifits but I also think leaving it in has a benifit
Success comes from trial and error. While your way definitely has success it also does not contribute to failure.
If you think those springs are so beneficial why not buy the higher rate springs from sonnax and put the stock 3-4 piston return springs back in......
You think you need a spring in that area, put the stronger sonnax springs there and leave the piston return springs stock.
You're dealing with the most problematic clutch in that transmission, why on earth would you ADD spring pressure of any amount is beyond me. Spring pressure that works against 3rd apply.
You think the amount of spring pressure from the 3-4 return springs will make a difference on the apply? Really? Get your spring measuring setup out and let me know what the pressure is for them. Next to negligible.
What they DO help with is the push the apply plate away from the clutches when 3/4's aren't applied. The transgo 7-cs springs make sure the piston and apply fingers get pushed away...these 5 little springs help to make sure the apply plate moves with the piston.
They're really not super critical either way. Leave em in/ take em out. It's preference. I've seen 60's built either way...i've experimented either way. Never once have those little springs been the cause of a failure.
You think the amount of spring pressure from the 3-4 return springs will make a difference on the apply? Really? Get your spring measuring setup out and let me know what the pressure is for them. Next to negligible.
What they DO help with is the push the apply plate away from the clutches when 3/4's aren't applied. The transgo 7-cs springs make sure the piston and apply fingers get pushed away...these 5 little springs help to make sure the apply plate moves with the piston.
They're really not super critical either way. Leave em in/ take em out. It's preference. I've seen 60's built either way...i've experimented either way. Never once have those little springs been the cause of a failure.
Using the 7-CS spring kit, takes an additional 5 psi. to bring them on. The oem GM way of doing this is fine when you use the stock setup distance between the top and bottom pressure plates. The oem GM way does take additional psi. too on the 2-3 shift. The installation of the 7-CS allows any clutch count here on the 3-4 setup. I have been using them since the early 1990's, without any problems. I have built hundreds of these units and well over a thousand kits, and have not had to correct one due to these springs causing shift problems. I am always learning, and when something shows me that things can be improved, I will add it to the kits and do this for myself on the units I build.
Sonnax Dual-piston 4th gear has more apply than the superior.
But for single piston designs, superior is largest.
Corvette servo with wide band and new Reverse Input drum has served me well at builds over 600hp
At this point, I'm not going to mess with a recipe that works until it doesn't anymore
Hey guys thanks for the help with my gearbox. I felt really confident building the box after a few noob questions were answered by you guys. Thank you to everybody really 😀.
I'm installing my gearbox hopefully next week and I have enough spare parts from the donor box #2 to rebuild the one currently in my car which should just have a burnt band because i lost 2nd gear otherwise drives fine
Donor box #2 had new Borg Warner clutches (other then burnt 3/4 zpak) wide band, transgo HD2 shift kit and that billet servo.
My cars standard piston is the crappy one the transgo kit says is used in trucks. So if I use the superior billet servo, wide band, transgo shift kit to fix up my box how can I stop that servo from shifting to harsh which I heard they do
Need to buy a new seperator plate for the rebuild cause I know mine will be thrashed so do I just keep 1-2 feed hole small or is there an accumulator mod I can do to help. I'll probably sell the box to recover some funds so don't want to give anyone a harsh box
With the stock torque converter and you are using the Superior 2nd apply servo. Keep the feed hole size in the separator plate at .076" max. With a small diameter torque converter, you can go with .082" max. Which Shift kit are you using here? With the HD2, leave out the accumulator spring on the accumulator valve that is in the valve body. Make sure the valve moves freely in the accumulator bushing. With the regular Shift kit (orange & white box) and the TransGo .500" or Sonnax .490" boost valve, use the weakest spring (white) on the accumulator valve. For the 3-4 clutch clearance (using 7 - 9 clutches), .030" - .045" clearance when using this servo. For street use, this is about all you can do to get any kind of smoothness here. Use the oem Hi-Energy type of band here.
I'm pretty sure it had a transgo HD2 kit cause it had the 7cs spring kit installed in the input drum
The point of rebuilding my current box is to use as many good parts as I have to keep cost low
My band is burnt so my drum will be useless but I have a near new wide band with matching near new reverse input drum. So I'll use these parts
Had a beast sunshell and the HD2 kit so might as well use that too
Had the superior billet servo (I stole the 4th billet and cover for mine with the advice of you guys) so might aswell use cause my factory one was the 554 part number
I'll keep the apply hole .076 just incase whoever buys it has a stock converter. They can make it bigger if they want
When you say leave the valve body accumulator spring out. You mean don't use the any? or don't use red/white from kit and just leave stock one in?
What about the accumulator piston and the two springs in there. Obviously I won't put any spacers or spring seat to reduce the harshness as much as possible but anything else to do?
The only parts I intend on buying is new 3/4 clutches and steels. Will go from 6 pack to 7 and I'll install new seals, bushes and pistons. Everything else was in good condition
You are trying for 1-2 part throttle shift firmness/smoothness here. Leaving out the accumulator spring will give it the best chance at being somewhat smooth, when using the Superior 2nd apply servo. At WOT, it will make virtually no difference here.
PBA by far has more recipes and combinations that actually work than probably anybody else in the world.
I have about 12 different recipes for each of these two transmissions, that I reuse over and over again.
I basically have 2 recipes for a given power level from stock to 1,000+ HP (I offer 6 power levels in between stock and 1,000+ HP).
Dana (PBA) on the other hand must have dozens of recipes...
For anybody with a THM700-R4/ 4L60E that finds and reads this thread...
PBA is the sole person, you should be looking to for recommendations, parts sets, or transmissions.
I believe has has done more research and testing on these transmissions, than pretty much anybody else.
I agree. Dana a few other members have been super helpful on my 1st rebuild and I feel like I know a lot more now then when I started. Plus I read about 200 posts about 4l60e lol
Funny seeing the progression of the builds over the year. Zpaks come and go, smartshell introduction vs beast, pinless accumulator and really interesting how feed hole sizes increased over the last 15 years so much.
At the end of the day I realise to make these strong and last you need better oil pressure, stronger apply pressure, tight clearances and leak free circuits.
I hope I achieved this close to what you guys build. First box lasted 15 years. Hopefully rebuild will to.
I just need to make some money back. I got overcharged for a "working/running unit" that thank god I inspected before installing. Now I'll rebuild my box with as many good parts as I can so next guy buys a box that is better then what I had.
Maybe I'll sell this billet servo and buy a Corvette for the rebuild. Just remember parts are a lot more pricey in Australia. A Corvette servo will cost around $50 and that superior billet is around $200 new.
I hear about you boys buying junkyard LS1 for a few hundred. Over here a junkyard LS with high millage is between 1500 and 3500 if you want a loom and gearbox
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