25-30 is usually 3-1, which is very fun indeed. The 3-2/4-2 is what you get anywhere from about 30 mph up to 75, depending on your specific setup.


nrayome98TA: The factory speedometer is definately not known to be accurate. They usually aren't too bad, but you never know for sure and the faster you go the more the speedo tens to be off. But 12 mph? It's certainly possible it's off by 12 mph, but I would like to think it's more accurate than that.....however considering that you have swapped gears and edited the PCM I wouldn't worry about if the only thing "off" is the indicated speed.

The tach seems accurate, I know mine is, but in lower gears it often lags behind.

 

when in either gear (3rd or 4th) the 3-4 clutch pack is engaged correct? Than why is a 3-2 worse than a 4-2 if both have to release the 3-4 clutch pack and apply the 2nd gear band?

ALso, i may not be a "reputable" trans builder, but it appears to me that if your cruising around in 4th @ 50mph around 1500-1600rpms for example, and downshift to second, you are putting more stress (thus increase in heat generation/absorption) on the 2nd gear band than if you went to 3rd gear?

Josh99ta, have you ever seen a 2nd gear band before and he amount of fiction material on it? The last time i replaced my trans, that was the thing that went!! IT was completely fried. Now, why i did that, im not usre. I do know that i, and countless others, have spent to much money and time on this stuff to just go out and trash on our rides. I for one and not to worried but i appreciate my investement and enjoy the other qualities of my ride, not just the tow ride to the trans place for a "refresh kit"

Of course, this is all IMO and it may be interpreted in may ways. Again, i may not be a trans builder but i have seen a few trans being taken apart and have seen a few of the possible weak links in the trans.

Now, i drive fast when ever possible. I just dont stand onthe go pedal going at every occasion. I usually kick down enough to go into third and hammer the go pedal.

Also,

 

I've always raced in "D" (Firebird OD), works for me.

 

This I'll believe, hard parts could fail in the event of a downshift like that, but just going WOT and having it be hard enough to cause damage on the clutch packs, not likely IMO. I think it's just a myth that someone who didn't know what they were talking about started and then it spread like wildfire.

Sure it causes stress, but so does WOT shifting any time you go through it. Whats the point of driving the car hard at all if you're scared. The KNOWN weak parts are the 3-4 clutch packs and the sun shell thing. Past that you shouldn't have much to worry about with your tranny.

Tell me this, how many times have you heard of someone losing 2nd in an A4 car but still having 3 and 4? I never have. 4 always fails first, 3 is next to go. A 4-2 or 3-2 downshift is nothing in comparison IMO. The extra events involved in a 3-2 downshift over a 4-2 downshift just tells me that you might be quicker if you leave it in 4 and then nail it from a roll, but as far as more wear and tear goes, I think the difference in minimal in comparison to the other known weak spots, i.e. the weak links will fail before you have to worry about the minimal amount of wear that occurs on a 4-2 or 3-2 downshift.

 

Thats the first one I've ever heard of. In the majority (and a heavy majority it is) of cases the other wink links let go FAR before 2nd does. Like I said, I went 3-2 and 4-2 on a daily basis for THREE YEARS and almost 80,000 miles with my stock transmission, no lie. I wouldn't park the car for the day unless I had made a WOT blast, and they were always from a roll because I didn't want to buy new tires every few months. Also in this 80,000 miles were multiple autocross sessions (six runs an event, four events a year roughly), over 50 passes down the drag strip, not to mention all the burnouts and donuts just horsing around. And when did my tranny finally let go? When I was cruising along under very light throttle and 4th gear decided to take a dump on me, followed very quickly by 3rd gear.

I know the hell I gave my stock tranny, and for yours to dump 2nd, I cant fathom what you'd have to do to accomplish something like that. Thats why I feel all this 4-2 and 3-2 fear is a bunch of regurgitated garbage that has no solid backing behind it.

 

Thats what the professionals have always told me, and it's worked like a charm. I dont pull any manual shifting if the car is moving at all, even under light throttle, and I just stick it in 4th (D in my T/A, OD in Camaros) and go.

 

I'd be interested to see what Pro-built or similiar has to say about it.

Matt

 

So if we only throttle our built trannies enough to make them kick down to a lower gear and THEN floor it, we should be okay at the lower speeds? I don't plan on running WOT at 140+ again anyway. For instance: driving 45 mph, want to race, give it 3/4 throttle initially to get it to kick down to 1st or 2nd, then go WOT? I'm sure this can happen a lot quicker than it sounds.

 

Yes that would be fine. Or you could just got WOT and not worry about it.....

 

I guess ut depends if you shift at the red line or not.

Here's some terminal speeds in gear, according to the calculator.

Assuming 245/50/15 tyres (approx 26")
Internal gear ratios of:
1st - 3.06:1
2nd - 1.62:1
3rd/D - 1.00:1
4th/OD - 0.70:1

And a red line of 6000rpm

2.73 Gears:

RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 50 95 154 220
5600 51 97 157 224
5700 52 98 159 228
5800 53 100 162 232
5900 54 102 165 236
6000 55 104 168 240

3.73 Gears:

RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 37 69 113 161
5600 37 71 115 164
5700 38 72 117 167
5800 39 73 119 169
5900 39 74 121 172
6000 40 76 123 175


4.10 Gears:

RPM-1st-2nd-3rd-4th
5500 33 63 102 146
5600 34 64 104 149
5700 35 65 106 152
5800 35 67 108 154
5900 36 68 110 157
6000 36 69 112 160

 

Most of you think shifting from third to fourth is hard on the 3-4 clutch.
The clutch is already engaged, to get fourth it just applies a band.
The 2-3 shift is what kills the 3-4 clutch.
No one mentioned this, thats why is total bullshit, no one even understands how the damn thing works.
As for these posts like this about people being so scared to hurt their transmission, get out of performance cars, buy yourself a geo and drive like an old lady. Or keep your f-body and drive it, driving it also increases the chance of someone wrecking into you too so maybe you should keep it parked.

 

Could this be the end of the "wott at odd" thread?????



Stay tuned..............

 

It was said right here, from the downshift point of view, rather than upshift: "A 4 to 2 downshift is easier for a 4L60-E to do than a 3-2 downshift. It is a single event of disengaging the 3-4 clutch pack. Downshifting from 3 to 2 has to release the 3-4 clutch pack and engage the band at the same time. Keep in mind that mechanically the 4L60-E is only a 2-speed auto with overdrive." Obviously, then, a 2-3 upshift engages the 3-4 clutch pack and a 3-4 upshift engages the band.

 

Thats the basics of it. Drive it like it was meant to be driven or drive it like a grandma. Stop whining about tearing it up though. Going fast means breaking parts, start a savings fund now.

 

I'd actually rather have something break that way. Nothing pisses me off more than babying a car and **** still ***** up on it. Floor that bitch all the way to 162.

 

hell yea!

 

in all honesty, im in total agremment. Our rides are high performance thus parts should be built up to spec. From my understanding, the lack of line pressure thus less lubricating fluid causes the the clutches to wear prematurely. ALso the added amount of work produced in a 2-3 shift, since the band is released and engages the 3-4 pack, in conjuction with less oil, is wat ruins it. THat s why "quick reacting" springs and ported pumps are used to keep our 4l'z alive, among other related parts.

MAybe ya'll misunderstood me, but i never statd that a 4-2 is really bad on the 4l. I just said that i suggested avoiding it. You see, knowing that a 3-2 is harsh on the trans, i fuigure if your cruising in 4th a slam on the trigger, your increasing the load on the 2 gear band (or 2-4 band) since you were traveling at a lower rpm thus generating less heat and requiring more line pressure than wat is being used. A good 2-4 band is nice but i feel it wont hold as much as a 3-4 pack becaue it has a less gripping area or clutch area than a 3-4 clutch pack. However, if you were cruising at a higher rpm, 3rd for example, the temps will be up, pressure will be thus requiring less time to generate the appropriate amount of pressure to get the job done. (I might be wrong since the band should remain engaged when going from a 4-2 thus minimizing the amount of work needed but unsure..... However, to me tha amount of strain on the trans on a 4-2 is greater than on a 3-2, of course in deducting this soly on trns temp a line pressure, not so much on work, though more work will generate more friction, equaling to more heat...)

Anyways, I understand that this is a touch subject that is left in the dark and without a final word from one that we can ALL trust. "It hasnt been carved in stone..." This usually ends up in theories and asumptions. All that i have ever stated is that i understand that a camaro is a sports car and that it should be riden like one. But i also enjoy just cruisin'. There isnt to many places down here in miami where i can find a good race and to be honest, im very selective of when i smash the pedal. (that is until i i get that uncontrolable feeling to shut these rice fools down on occasions or the the occasional evo, STI, AMG E55....Whatever.

BAsically, keeping the trans in the OD or D for the T/A is the best way to drive these trans because they werent really meant to be shifted manually. I just feel that since im on my third trans rebuild (408ci has maybe something to do with it and a bad line pressure sensor, which fried EVERTHING!!!!! not one piece of clutch material was left untouched!!!), that im more aware of the limitations and act accordingly. Worried that it my break, hey, **** happens, parts break, but avoiding a broken part is also a choice we all have.

Sorry for the long post, just had all of these words built up......

My advice is use common sense and read as much as you can and YOU make your decisons on what YOU feel is best for YOU ride...

Angel

 

what about just replaceing the 4L60-E with a th-400 and be done with it, they are super tuff like hard turds and you can manually shift thehell out of htem with a B&M Ripper and **** it as a manumatic.....thats the way i'm goin instead of this 4L60 electronic B.S! a th-400 is a hell of a lot cheaper to repair than the 4L's just my 2 crusty cents.

 

a th400 is a nice trans but, unless i get a gar vendor with it, i wont like to be limited to a third gear.

These 4l'z arent that bad as people have labled them to be. Hell, cablebandit has about 750rwhp on a hp an tons of track time and his has lastd for a while until it broke a hard part, i think the input shaft or something like.

So these trans are good but the proper maintainance and actions will keep them running strong. All it takes it a whole lot of heat dissapation and oil to keep them alive. Also, with a 4l you have the feature of adjusting your shift points, shift frimness...things which i believe (and i might be wrong) can't be with a th400 unless you open her up and swap out parts including gears....

On the oter hand, i would love a th400 so i can just forget about it but no fourth gear has me and i want to abandon the 4l....

 

If there was a way to have a ratchit shifter for the 4L60's then i'd love to keep mine, but honestly the manumatic is whats got me hooked onto to the TH-400, and yeah you can change the shift firmness with a Transpak, and the shift points are done with the Ratchit, you can hold it till the cows come home and pigs fly, until you manually shift it yourself.