Non-drag Daily Driver: Stall or Gears? A4 2.73's...
10-03-2005, 08:44 AM
#41
Aftica,
Do you have any idea what kind of improvement you are seeing from the move 2800->4000?
That's the one thing that I'm not really clear on. If I can get 80% of the performance increase with a "tight" converter (maybe a 3k or so rather than 3.5-3.8), than that would be very attractive.
Do you have any idea what kind of improvement you are seeing from the move 2800->4000?
That's the one thing that I'm not really clear on. If I can get 80% of the performance increase with a "tight" converter (maybe a 3k or so rather than 3.5-3.8), than that would be very attractive.
10-03-2005, 09:19 AM
#42
Actually, drag radials look less aggressive than high performance summer tires because the tread pattern on the nittos is more muted looking. However, if you run more than 20,000 miles a year, then drag radials get to be expensive. Nittos are good for 8000 - 12000 miles depending upon your driving style. Nittos aren't too expensive, so compared to some high dollar tires that cost a lot more, the average cost of ownership isn't too bad. (Sorry, I don't know if Fuzions are expensive or cheap) .
You are right about diminishing returns on stall speeds. As long as you start with a true stall of 3000 - 3300, the incremental gains of going larger are not as great. Going from stock of 1800 to 3000 (+1200 rpm) will produce a bigger gain than going from a 3000 to a 4200 stall; especially on a traction limited car.
Generally those that don't like 2.73s around town have not adjusted their part throttle shift points. A 3000 stall and higher part throttle shift points will make the car feel just as nimble as a car with 3.23 / 3.42s and stock shift points.
You are right about diminishing returns on stall speeds. As long as you start with a true stall of 3000 - 3300, the incremental gains of going larger are not as great. Going from stock of 1800 to 3000 (+1200 rpm) will produce a bigger gain than going from a 3000 to a 4200 stall; especially on a traction limited car.
Generally those that don't like 2.73s around town have not adjusted their part throttle shift points. A 3000 stall and higher part throttle shift points will make the car feel just as nimble as a car with 3.23 / 3.42s and stock shift points.
10-03-2005, 09:47 AM
#43
Fuzions are dirt cheap, about $120 or so a tire. They are a bit of an import/tuner targeted brand, but are a Bridgestone/Firestone tire carrying alot of the same technology as Potenza's, which were my previous favorite by a long shot.
I went through alot of different tires on my 93 formula; Goodyear GSC's (gotta luv SLP take offs), BFG Radial T/A, BFG Comp T/A's, Bridgestone Potenza's... and the Potenza's were far and away the strongest tire of the lot, and seemed to be wearing ok. The only problem with them was the Michelin like pricing... so when I saw the pricing and background of the Fuzion's it seemed like a good bet, and I'm quite happy with them so far. I got them mounted and shipped with chrome Z06 knock-offs for $1,200.
The 2.73's really don't bother me too much in driving, but I realize they are a major liability for casual stoplight meetings, and though I don't drag race much, I like being able to wipe the grin clean off the face of a Mustang or WRX driver.
I actually quite like them on the highway, but I also know how much better 3.23's feel from my old Formula. Thus the struggle between the two options, as a stall is unknown territory to me.
I went through alot of different tires on my 93 formula; Goodyear GSC's (gotta luv SLP take offs), BFG Radial T/A, BFG Comp T/A's, Bridgestone Potenza's... and the Potenza's were far and away the strongest tire of the lot, and seemed to be wearing ok. The only problem with them was the Michelin like pricing... so when I saw the pricing and background of the Fuzion's it seemed like a good bet, and I'm quite happy with them so far. I got them mounted and shipped with chrome Z06 knock-offs for $1,200.
The 2.73's really don't bother me too much in driving, but I realize they are a major liability for casual stoplight meetings, and though I don't drag race much, I like being able to wipe the grin clean off the face of a Mustang or WRX driver.
I actually quite like them on the highway, but I also know how much better 3.23's feel from my old Formula. Thus the struggle between the two options, as a stall is unknown territory to me.
10-03-2005, 09:55 AM
#44
I was smacking my limiter when installed my 2800 vig with my 3.42 gears. I had to play with my shift points and raised rev limiter think to 6200 seemed to work.
I never did try reprogramming my car with the 2.73 and the stall since bought the 3.42 cheap with carrier as one of first mods. I was pretty badly traction limited with the 3.42 on 235 16 inch cooper cobras my car came with . Was really really traction limited with the 2800 vig but think its 2.5 stall ratio. Then lowered car and 60fts went to like 2.6 to 2.8 on the coopers. Added lca brackets and got the 60fts down a bit and
then spohn torque arm and again they came down to a 2.3 or so and then added the nitto drags in back and fuzions in front. The nittos could get 2.02 best so far pretty much dead hooking so not sure can get lower 60fts until add some more power ,bigger stall or more gear and only added the power not messing with the stall or gears don't think in foreseeable future although one buddy wants my stall bad and might go 3000 to 3200 if he pays for the install of my new one. My heavy vert could use more stall. On ls1 most guys go bigger than on lt1 cars 3500 is pretty popular on ls1 cars.They do say the vig stall a bit higher than rating anyway so I figure I sort of have a 3000 now.
And of course depends a lot on your torque the stall will get dragged higher with more torque going thru it and I have a nitrous kit to install shortly.
Not sure how much all this helps you. Some guys seem happy with their stall and 2.73 and some guys like 3.42 or 3.73 gears a lot with or without a stall. I like my 3.42 /2800 vig combo on my lt1. 100% improvement to me and totally streetable on highway ,around town etc.I can waste a lot of cars off the line with current setup and my spohn torque arm,and lower control arms,bmr relocation brackets and my nitto drag radials.
I never did try reprogramming my car with the 2.73 and the stall since bought the 3.42 cheap with carrier as one of first mods. I was pretty badly traction limited with the 3.42 on 235 16 inch cooper cobras my car came with . Was really really traction limited with the 2800 vig but think its 2.5 stall ratio. Then lowered car and 60fts went to like 2.6 to 2.8 on the coopers. Added lca brackets and got the 60fts down a bit and
then spohn torque arm and again they came down to a 2.3 or so and then added the nitto drags in back and fuzions in front. The nittos could get 2.02 best so far pretty much dead hooking so not sure can get lower 60fts until add some more power ,bigger stall or more gear and only added the power not messing with the stall or gears don't think in foreseeable future although one buddy wants my stall bad and might go 3000 to 3200 if he pays for the install of my new one. My heavy vert could use more stall. On ls1 most guys go bigger than on lt1 cars 3500 is pretty popular on ls1 cars.They do say the vig stall a bit higher than rating anyway so I figure I sort of have a 3000 now.
And of course depends a lot on your torque the stall will get dragged higher with more torque going thru it and I have a nitrous kit to install shortly.
Not sure how much all this helps you. Some guys seem happy with their stall and 2.73 and some guys like 3.42 or 3.73 gears a lot with or without a stall. I like my 3.42 /2800 vig combo on my lt1. 100% improvement to me and totally streetable on highway ,around town etc.I can waste a lot of cars off the line with current setup and my spohn torque arm,and lower control arms,bmr relocation brackets and my nitto drag radials.
10-03-2005, 11:00 AM
#45
Originally Posted by todddchi
The 2.73's really don't bother me too much in driving, but I realize they are a major liability for casual stoplight meetings, and though I don't drag race much, I like being able to wipe the grin clean off the face of a Mustang or WRX driver.
10-03-2005, 12:26 PM
#46
Originally Posted by todddchi
Aftica,
Do you have any idea what kind of improvement you are seeing from the move 2800->4000?
That's the one thing that I'm not really clear on. If I can get 80% of the performance increase with a "tight" converter (maybe a 3k or so rather than 3.5-3.8), than that would be very attractive.
Do you have any idea what kind of improvement you are seeing from the move 2800->4000?
That's the one thing that I'm not really clear on. If I can get 80% of the performance increase with a "tight" converter (maybe a 3k or so rather than 3.5-3.8), than that would be very attractive.
If you insist on not using DR's (still don't understand that) the Super Yank series will be perfect for you although as Ragtop said it will probably be looser than what you want. Go to DR's and a converter like the Vig I just took out and you will be amazed at how the car performs and it definately won't be too loose.
10-03-2005, 12:44 PM
#47
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Man, I'm having a heck of a time trying to decide on a stall and gears, or just a stall, for my C5. I had a LS6 intake manifold and injectors, Comp Cams XR269HR Comp cam (216/220), cleaned up 2003 LS6 heads (w/Lingenfelter springs), Dynatech headers, high flow cats, X-pipe, GHL Bullet cat-back exhaust, Blackwing air filter, drilled out foglight shrouds, screenless MAF, LS2 timing chain and an LS1Edit dynotune performed. Doug Rippie Motorsports did the work, and tune, for me. My goal was to raise the entire curve rather than focus just on peak power, while keeping the car very enjoyable to drive. The car pulls very hard. I do not take the car to the strip. I am thinking about installing a Protorque 2400-2600 with 3.42 gears. I drove a similar power C5 with that combo and really liked it. I also went for a ride in a Camaro with a TCI 3500 converter and absolutely did not like the loose feel.
What would be suggested? Is the Protorque too small? Are there higher stall converters out there that would drive nearly like stock with 3.42s? Would the Protorque stall perform nearly the same with 3.15s as with 3.42s? Any thoughts would be more than appreciated.
Ed
What would be suggested? Is the Protorque too small? Are there higher stall converters out there that would drive nearly like stock with 3.42s? Would the Protorque stall perform nearly the same with 3.15s as with 3.42s? Any thoughts would be more than appreciated.
Ed
10-03-2005, 03:00 PM
#48
In general, my thought process is to only build power within the limits of the traction you have to work with. I'm sorry, but I am lazy, and I think one of the great beauties of the A4 is having a "no brainer" launch. My goal is to get the power up to the point where I have just enough to break them loose on the grippiest surface around - like common-in-Michigan concrete roads.
If I want to do burnouts, well, torque braking isn't exactly a science. So I am fine not having a ridiculous amount of power over my traction limits.
From everything I can tell so far, a 3200-3500 / 1.8-2.2 ish stall will achieve my goals even with my cruiser 2.73 gears.
I suspect your vette would require even less stall, but you don't list your tires. And if you are currently running 3.15's or 3.23's... I'll go out on a limb and say 99% of people are going to say don't waste your time and money with an up to 3.42's. Get a little more sr or stall, and keep your gears. Or go 3.73. But I would think with 3.73's and stall with that setup you'd be hard pressed for traction.
If I want to do burnouts, well, torque braking isn't exactly a science. So I am fine not having a ridiculous amount of power over my traction limits.
From everything I can tell so far, a 3200-3500 / 1.8-2.2 ish stall will achieve my goals even with my cruiser 2.73 gears.
I suspect your vette would require even less stall, but you don't list your tires. And if you are currently running 3.15's or 3.23's... I'll go out on a limb and say 99% of people are going to say don't waste your time and money with an up to 3.42's. Get a little more sr or stall, and keep your gears. Or go 3.73. But I would think with 3.73's and stall with that setup you'd be hard pressed for traction.
10-03-2005, 08:56 PM
#50
C5: I would not buy a PT 2400 or 2600, but your results will be very close to your buddy's 3.42 car. A TCI 3000, Yank SS3200 or Vig 2800 will be tighter than the TCI 3500 and outperform the PT.
I'll say this again.
Until you buy HPT/Edit/EFILive (or use a tuner that really knows A4s), you do not know what you are missing. Setting up the part throttle shifts and lock-up to match your driving style and your car's mods makes a big difference, especially when you run a high stall converter on stock gears. Below WOT, these cars are pretty much set up for economy based upon a stock motor, gears, and converter. If you want your car to behave like a performance car, especially after dropping several grand into mods, you need to spring for the software or get it done right.
I'll say this again.
Until you buy HPT/Edit/EFILive (or use a tuner that really knows A4s), you do not know what you are missing. Setting up the part throttle shifts and lock-up to match your driving style and your car's mods makes a big difference, especially when you run a high stall converter on stock gears. Below WOT, these cars are pretty much set up for economy based upon a stock motor, gears, and converter. If you want your car to behave like a performance car, especially after dropping several grand into mods, you need to spring for the software or get it done right.
10-04-2005, 05:22 AM
#51
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i love my 2.73's and my own hptuners map. it gets decent gas milage around town and i have the shift points adjusted awesome. stop light races? i ******* CLEAN UP, if the other car is awd i just get the tires hot and i BEAT most awd cars out of the hole also.
the thing people don't get is torque converters are good for the "surge" forward while launching. you usually cannot "hit" the tires hard on the street or they will spin no matter how hot they get, so you roll it out hard and roll into the throttle letting the torque converter do it's job. my "surge" forward lasts longer in 1st gear because of the long 2.73's and i seriously tear 99% of cars in my power range out of the hole.
the thing people don't get is torque converters are good for the "surge" forward while launching. you usually cannot "hit" the tires hard on the street or they will spin no matter how hot they get, so you roll it out hard and roll into the throttle letting the torque converter do it's job. my "surge" forward lasts longer in 1st gear because of the long 2.73's and i seriously tear 99% of cars in my power range out of the hole.
10-04-2005, 08:12 AM
#52
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Wow.. I have learned more in this single post than I have reading several others.. Not to hijack or anything but just a couple more questions.. Todd wont run DR's so he is going with a lower STR.. however I will be running DR's on mine.. also with the 2:73 gears.. Is a 2.5 still too high for a street racing only car?? Granted the car has seen the track, but it was just to get some times.. 99% of my cars racing career is spent at the redlight off the track.. Also, in the post above, am I reading it right that the proper way to launch a stalled car is to "roll" the gas pedal.. not "hammer" it.??? I have tried launching my car a couple different ways and found that "hammering" it in a street race is better than "stalling" it.. (around 2K).. but at the track the car seemed to like to be stalled up instead of hammered.. anyway.. 
10-04-2005, 08:46 AM
#53
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todddchi, I just went through the same thing you have and after reading most of the post before this one and now this one, I feel you should find someone with a stall and/or gears have them take you for a ride. I just put in "thick" 3.73 gears and a tune. Mike from New Era firmed the shifts and with my transgo kit (oh along with getting me 20rwhp/35rwhtq), there is a massive improvement. I spent $210 on the gears and $275 for tune (5 pulls), my car took 14 pulls (15 A/F). I wish I could hit the track to give you real number improvement but from just street use, the car feels like it lost a gear and is very responsive, yet at highway speed its pulling 2500 rpm gas mileage is the same almost all around. I am also able to smoke the tires from a dead stop and get a good turp in second (also rolling from 30mph when the car downshifts it turps). I'm still on street tires but if I can get a pair my black/polished faced Y2K's in 11in I'm going to but Nittros on them. I really like the day to day driving, like I said before its like just having it on D not overdrive. The tune is worth the money.
Hope that helps a little bit but I think it just added to the tug-0-2.73s... if I decide to get my tranny redone I'll get a stall and buy a 12 bolt 3.73s.
Hope that helps a little bit but I think it just added to the tug-0-2.73s... if I decide to get my tranny redone I'll get a stall and buy a 12 bolt 3.73s.
10-04-2005, 11:42 AM
#54
Well, I think for me the way I end up going is ultimately going to depend upon a few different factors. Just by the sheer number of views and posts in this thread - I think one thing that is important is that although a stall is definitely faster - it is important to realize there are many other considerations when considering gears or a stall. I am happy there has been so much good feedback for consideration.
All else being equal ($$$), I think I would end up going with a 3400/2.0ish fuddle converter as recommended by fuddle and most people on here because of my feel preferences, tire, gear, and vert weight. I'm 99% sure I'd be pretty happy with that and it'd be quite pleasing to surprise many people with a hard launching vert, while still being able to lug along a 2k rpm at 80 mph. I am a little concerned about needing subframes with that change, though...
However with the risk of needing a tune, the possible costs of a converter change become pretty high, as it is not a swap I'm comfortable with, nor do I have the shop room to do myself.
I think I am going to keep my eyes open for a cheap HPPIII and 3.42 axle from a manual car. If that combo pops up the low price of entry will be pretty tempting, and a full axle swap is something I think I could tackle. I've seen full 3.42 axles for less than $200, as they are so common. Sell the brakes off it and I could be about even. So almost a free upgrade that way, understanding some risk, of course. Makes it pretty tempting and I'm sure it would be enough to keep me happy.
It might end up being a matter of what I find first, a good stall install deal, or a good axle take-off.
I really think they both have thier pluses and minuses, and would use up most of my available traction either way. Gears being SOTP overall, stall being fastest...
All else being equal ($$$), I think I would end up going with a 3400/2.0ish fuddle converter as recommended by fuddle and most people on here because of my feel preferences, tire, gear, and vert weight. I'm 99% sure I'd be pretty happy with that and it'd be quite pleasing to surprise many people with a hard launching vert, while still being able to lug along a 2k rpm at 80 mph. I am a little concerned about needing subframes with that change, though...
However with the risk of needing a tune, the possible costs of a converter change become pretty high, as it is not a swap I'm comfortable with, nor do I have the shop room to do myself.
I think I am going to keep my eyes open for a cheap HPPIII and 3.42 axle from a manual car. If that combo pops up the low price of entry will be pretty tempting, and a full axle swap is something I think I could tackle. I've seen full 3.42 axles for less than $200, as they are so common. Sell the brakes off it and I could be about even. So almost a free upgrade that way, understanding some risk, of course. Makes it pretty tempting and I'm sure it would be enough to keep me happy.
It might end up being a matter of what I find first, a good stall install deal, or a good axle take-off.
I really think they both have thier pluses and minuses, and would use up most of my available traction either way. Gears being SOTP overall, stall being fastest...
10-04-2005, 01:38 PM
#55
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Originally Posted by 1BAD98TA
Wow.. Is a 2.5 still too high for a street racing only car?? Granted the car has seen the track, but it was just to get some times.. 99% of my cars racing career is spent at the redlight off the track.. Also, in the post above, am I reading it right that the proper way to launch a stalled car is to "roll" the gas pedal.. not "hammer" it.??? I have tried launching my car a couple different ways and found that "hammering" it in a street race is better than "stalling" it.. (around 2K).. but at the track the car seemed to like to be stalled up instead of hammered.. anyway..
if you are at the track, tires hot, vht down, then yeah ******* hammer the throttle (i stall up to 2500-2700 then hammer it) and get the 60ft's you see in my sig with the long 2.73's, but on the street if you hammer it you'll blow the nitto's off of the rims and loose the race, possibly smash into your opponent- probably goes for most tires aside from a full slick.
now- with a lower str like reccomended for street use then you may be able to go into the throttle a little bit faster since the converter won't hit as hard. i like to know that im not launching quite as hard as the car can however. it is nice to know the car has a little left in it and all you need is a slick to get it.
10-04-2005, 02:15 PM
#56
Bad98TA, you can go with a 3500 / 2.5 and get good use at the track and on the street. If however you are going to stay as a street racer, the SY 3500 is for you. You can cut a high 1.7x on a stoplight race with your 2.73s and nittos. It also does very well from a roll. If that is too much coin, then a 3500 2.0 is good. You'll be able to keep the nittos up around 24lbs and have good grip even when they aren't real hot.
10-04-2005, 03:06 PM
#57
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nobody even mentioned that if you don't get a stall you are very limited on your cam options, I don't know if this guy wants one, but if he has the itch like me, he will.
10-05-2005, 06:28 AM
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I have the stock 2.73s. Have also been running a Yank ST3500 for around 88,000 miles. 
I, too, only run on street tires, albeit the largest I can get on stock 16" rims.
If I had it to do over, I probably would have went with a converter with a lower STR. The ST3500 has a STR of 2.5, and takes some finesse to launch as it will literally burn the tires up if you floor it. If you want more from a roll then I would definitely consider something along the lines of what Yank suggested. (less STR).
I, too, only run on street tires, albeit the largest I can get on stock 16" rims.
If I had it to do over, I probably would have went with a converter with a lower STR. The ST3500 has a STR of 2.5, and takes some finesse to launch as it will literally burn the tires up if you floor it. If you want more from a roll then I would definitely consider something along the lines of what Yank suggested. (less STR).
