Is A4 strong enough?
TECH Regular
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 465
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From: Edgewood, MD
Stock car, not even computer tuning, nothing done to it. 1st tranny got at 31,xxx miles. Replaced with a rebuilt one under GM warrenty, was already slipping with 3000 miles on it. There was no track time during this period...no street racing...daily driving the car 45 miles each way back and forth to work. It couldn't handle rush hour traffic around Washington DC.
Now I have a built 4l60e with TCS 4200 and tranny cooler...no problems...1 year, no signs of slipping, no clutch dust in the pan, fluid perfectly clear on every change, and she's still going strong.
From the factory..the 4l60e is crap. If built with proper parts from someone that knows what they are doing and proper cooling is put in place to ensure they don't build too must heat, the 4l60e will do ok.
Now I have a built 4l60e with TCS 4200 and tranny cooler...no problems...1 year, no signs of slipping, no clutch dust in the pan, fluid perfectly clear on every change, and she's still going strong.
From the factory..the 4l60e is crap. If built with proper parts from someone that knows what they are doing and proper cooling is put in place to ensure they don't build too must heat, the 4l60e will do ok.
Originally Posted by Kenafin_02TA
Stock car, not even computer tuning, nothing done to it. 1st tranny got at 31,xxx miles. Replaced with a rebuilt one under GM warrenty, was already slipping with 3000 miles on it. There was no track time during this period...no street racing...daily driving the car 45 miles each way back and forth to work. It couldn't handle rush hour traffic around Washington DC.
Now I have a built 4l60e with TCS 4200 and tranny cooler...no problems...1 year, no signs of slipping, no clutch dust in the pan, fluid perfectly clear on every change, and she's still going strong.
From the factory..the 4l60e is crap. If built with proper parts from someone that knows what they are doing and proper cooling is put in place to ensure they don't build too must heat, the 4l60e will do ok.
Now I have a built 4l60e with TCS 4200 and tranny cooler...no problems...1 year, no signs of slipping, no clutch dust in the pan, fluid perfectly clear on every change, and she's still going strong.
From the factory..the 4l60e is crap. If built with proper parts from someone that knows what they are doing and proper cooling is put in place to ensure they don't build too must heat, the 4l60e will do ok.
STF Veteran
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 722
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From: Maryland
I'll second most of what has been said here (Except the guy who said that the A4 will only go bad if you dick around with the computer). From the factory, the 4L60E is a crapshoot. Some of em are strong as bulls, others are like rolling the dice every time you step on the pedal.
My completely stock 98 TA, down to the paper filter, destroyed the stock A4 about 6 months after I got it (to be fair, it already had 65k on it when I got it). Ok, it happens, I get it rebuilt by a local tranny shop (bad mistake on my part. They were idiots), and it broke again about 15 months later. Same problem both times, I keep R, 1, and 2, but 3 and 4(od) slip like I'm in neutral as soon as I give it more than about 5% throttle. Basically I had just enough to limp 30 miles up i95 to get it a street/strip rebuild by a REAL shop this time (for about half the price of the "Stock" rebuild by that other shop I might add). 3200 stall, shift kit, and 8"x18" tranny cooler as well. Not completely stock anymore, but I'm probably still not pushing much more than 300rwhp. If THAT can destroy the new tranny setup, well then **** it, I'm done with the 4L60E. hah.
Best advice was the guy who said something along the lines of "Don't worry about it for now, and then when it DOES die, get it rebuilt right with good strong parts by someone who knows what they're doing"
My completely stock 98 TA, down to the paper filter, destroyed the stock A4 about 6 months after I got it (to be fair, it already had 65k on it when I got it). Ok, it happens, I get it rebuilt by a local tranny shop (bad mistake on my part. They were idiots), and it broke again about 15 months later. Same problem both times, I keep R, 1, and 2, but 3 and 4(od) slip like I'm in neutral as soon as I give it more than about 5% throttle. Basically I had just enough to limp 30 miles up i95 to get it a street/strip rebuild by a REAL shop this time (for about half the price of the "Stock" rebuild by that other shop I might add). 3200 stall, shift kit, and 8"x18" tranny cooler as well. Not completely stock anymore, but I'm probably still not pushing much more than 300rwhp. If THAT can destroy the new tranny setup, well then **** it, I'm done with the 4L60E. hah.
Best advice was the guy who said something along the lines of "Don't worry about it for now, and then when it DOES die, get it rebuilt right with good strong parts by someone who knows what they're doing"
Well... ive never had any problems from mine... 90,000 miles. Vig 3200, 28000 cooler, and some other crap; runnin low 12's. I beat on it a good bit and race about every other weekend. Not problems at all so far, still just as strong as ever.
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,629
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From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
Originally Posted by Kenafin_02TA
From the factory..the 4l60e is crap.
Plenty of stock/mild LS1 cars with 80-100K+ miles on stock 4L60Es.
There will always be some early failures of factory parts on even stock cars; some due to operator error, and some due to a low percentage of factory flaws.
4L60E is an excellent factory transmission, and they usually do a fine job of holding together in stock or mildly modded setups. The problems come when people mistreat the trans; too much heat, manually shifting, poor maintainence, programming too much line pressure (via PCM) for part throttle shifting, etc.
Treat it right, and a 4L60E will last for a long time in a stock to bolt-on level F-body. If you want to go fast though, it will need to be built before long.
PS. Some aftermarket "built" 4L60Es end up being weaker than stock units, due to builders that have no clue what they are doing. Be careful who you go to.
Last edited by RPM WS6; Oct 13, 2005 at 09:09 PM.
My A4 just took a ****, 23,000 mi on the clock. Mods in sig. It literally took a dump within about 3 hours of installing my PCM after getting it back from TSP. I asked Jason to completely remove torque management for me, that may have been a bad idea on my part. Also, I had a TC installed about 6 months ago and never got it tuned or installed a shift kit. I've had the tranny cooler all along, but noticed when I got my TC put it that it felt like the 1-2 shift was slipping; it literally took more than .5 a second to shift from 1-2 (twice as long as the factory commanded shift time). I though this was normal, but I was probably burning up my clutches.
Now, I'm sitting here with no 2nd gear. It's okay though, I just ordered my 4l60e from Dave at Rock On.
Now, I'm sitting here with no 2nd gear. It's okay though, I just ordered my 4l60e from Dave at Rock On.
I'll just echo more praise for the stock A4. My '01 SS has about 56,000 on the ticker. I bought it used and had no idea of how the previous owner drove the car. Within 24 hours of buying her I was at the track and have been back on most weekends since I got her. She started out stock running 13.8 and has since undergone normal mods such as used Vig 3200 TC (already had about 20,000 miles on it when I got it), suspension mods and now she is running 12.1 still on the stock transmission. When we installed the TC the fluid in the pan was black. I thought for sure the TC would be the nail in the coffin but she is still going strong after almost a year of having the TC installed with not a single problem. I do plan on getting a rebuilt trans after I get home from Iraq but I may just sit on that money for a while and see just how much longer she holds out.
My T/A with 117,000 miles on it, still has stock tranny, and doing great..
My buddies car is a 98 Z with a 100 shot.. stock tranny has went through 7 bottles now.. It finally took a crap at 142,000 miles and 7 bottles of N2O...
So no they arent crap.. some seem to be pretty good.. To me it seems that if there are 100,000 A4 cars out there, and only a few of the guys here have been saying they are "crap" then the A4 isnt all that bad..
My buddies car is a 98 Z with a 100 shot.. stock tranny has went through 7 bottles now.. It finally took a crap at 142,000 miles and 7 bottles of N2O...
So no they arent crap.. some seem to be pretty good.. To me it seems that if there are 100,000 A4 cars out there, and only a few of the guys here have been saying they are "crap" then the A4 isnt all that bad..
One thing I find funny is the descriptions everyone is giving about their A4 failures.
Yeah I was driving and all of a sudden bam I had nothing but reverse so I took it to a shop, mine was slipping drove it to the shop.
No one is learning about whats failing, you're all just taking it somewhere to get fixed, read that again...get fixed. As in make it functional again.
If more of you would do you own work, see whats failing, improve whats failing then your opinions towards the A4 might change.
Also you need to look at the drivetrain (engine, transmission, rear end) as a unit, you put more power in front things in the back are going to start to break.
You don't do heads, cam, supercharger, nitrous and keep the stock exhaust because it just won't work right, only thing is it won't break. Same theory applies to the transmission, put more power in front of it and it evenually won't work. Whats so misleading is the fact that it will work for a little while.
I can't help it Somebody got f'ed on that deal. I hope your running in the nines or faster. I built my th400 for under $400, it's got a rare factory low sprag gear set, 4L80E direct drum and a reverse manual valve body, it runs behind a 438 big block.
Yeah I was driving and all of a sudden bam I had nothing but reverse so I took it to a shop, mine was slipping drove it to the shop.
No one is learning about whats failing, you're all just taking it somewhere to get fixed, read that again...get fixed. As in make it functional again.
If more of you would do you own work, see whats failing, improve whats failing then your opinions towards the A4 might change.
Also you need to look at the drivetrain (engine, transmission, rear end) as a unit, you put more power in front things in the back are going to start to break.
You don't do heads, cam, supercharger, nitrous and keep the stock exhaust because it just won't work right, only thing is it won't break. Same theory applies to the transmission, put more power in front of it and it evenually won't work. Whats so misleading is the fact that it will work for a little while.
I can't help it
$5600 later I have a nasty TH400 trans
Originally Posted by jxaxsxoxn
One thing I find funny is the descriptions everyone is giving about their A4 failures.
Yeah I was driving and all of a sudden bam I had nothing but reverse so I took it to a shop, mine was slipping drove it to the shop.
No one is learning about whats failing, you're all just taking it somewhere to get fixed, read that again...get fixed. As in make it functional again.
If more of you would do you own work, see whats failing, improve whats failing then your opinions towards the A4 might change.
Also you need to look at the drivetrain (engine, transmission, rear end) as a unit, you put more power in front things in the back are going to start to break.
You don't do heads, cam, supercharger, nitrous and keep the stock exhaust because it just won't work right, only thing is it won't break. Same theory applies to the transmission, put more power in front of it and it evenually won't work. Whats so misleading is the fact that it will work for a little while.
I can't help it Somebody got f'ed on that deal. I hope your running in the nines or faster. I built my th400 for under $400, it's got a rare factory low sprag gear set, 4L80E direct drum and a reverse manual valve body, it runs behind a 438 big block.
Yeah I was driving and all of a sudden bam I had nothing but reverse so I took it to a shop, mine was slipping drove it to the shop.
No one is learning about whats failing, you're all just taking it somewhere to get fixed, read that again...get fixed. As in make it functional again.
If more of you would do you own work, see whats failing, improve whats failing then your opinions towards the A4 might change.
Also you need to look at the drivetrain (engine, transmission, rear end) as a unit, you put more power in front things in the back are going to start to break.
You don't do heads, cam, supercharger, nitrous and keep the stock exhaust because it just won't work right, only thing is it won't break. Same theory applies to the transmission, put more power in front of it and it evenually won't work. Whats so misleading is the fact that it will work for a little while.
I can't help it Somebody got f'ed on that deal. I hope your running in the nines or faster. I built my th400 for under $400, it's got a rare factory low sprag gear set, 4L80E direct drum and a reverse manual valve body, it runs behind a 438 big block.
I had the valve body out and replaced both shift solenoids, both plastic accum pistons (forward and 1-2), and the 1-2 shift valve. I came to realize that it was an internal tranny problem and wasn't something I could get at easily. I still have 4th gear, so I couldn't have burned up my 2-4 band. Being that I still had 3rd gear, I ruled out a bad servo.
I don't know about you, but I'm not gonna throw money at what seems to be a common occurrence with the stock A4 just to figure out what went wrong myself. After all, what's the point of pulling the trans, taking it apart, replacing the f'd up parts with new ones, flushing the tranny lines, rebuilding the TC cause you don't know what's embedded in the fins, just to have it happen all over again?
I guess you can't blame GM engineers and bean counters for using a trans that barely supports the stock power output. Sure, there are plenty of guys that have high mile stock trannys in 400+ hp applications, but there are also a hell of alot of guys like myself that have one take a dump at 23,000 miles barely making 385 rwhp.
Bottom line, just like our stock valve springs, the 4l60e is a crapshoot.
Ahh, jxaxsxoxn, I just realized what you meant by that post. I agree 100%. Like I said in my post, a lot of guys throw money at the problem, like replacing the bad stock parts for newer, stronger, heavier duty parts, but having the rest of the trans remain stock. What's the point?
Talk to a good builder and see if they recommend a vaccuum modulated transmission. It allows your trans to NOT rely on the MAF sensor, MAP sensor, etc to determine shift time and pressure. After all, the more you mod (especially internal engine) the less accurate all of these sensors become regardless of your tuning ability.
Just like jxaxsxoxn said, find out what's wrong, how you can improve it, and take it from there.
Talk to a good builder and see if they recommend a vaccuum modulated transmission. It allows your trans to NOT rely on the MAF sensor, MAP sensor, etc to determine shift time and pressure. After all, the more you mod (especially internal engine) the less accurate all of these sensors become regardless of your tuning ability.
Just like jxaxsxoxn said, find out what's wrong, how you can improve it, and take it from there.
Just like jxaxsxoxn said, find out what's wrong, how you can improve it, and take it from there.
So my point is people need to put down the money for a professionally built 4L60E, and for those who don't have the money learn to build their own it's a little bit cheaper. Those who refuse to do both, lose the overdrive and put in a th400. Or sell the car and get out.
I am another one of those that like the 4L60E... I have 190K on it now, has never been re-built... It have had a Yank SY3500 for a year and a half...
I now need a rebuild ( this week) as i have too much power going to it now... I have recently added a new cam 232/236 .595 .601 114 along with my Lanes True Duals...
The tranny is starting to slip...
Guess after 190K, i can;t bitch!
I like it...
I now need a rebuild ( this week) as i have too much power going to it now... I have recently added a new cam 232/236 .595 .601 114 along with my Lanes True Duals...
The tranny is starting to slip...
Guess after 190K, i can;t bitch!
I like it...
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 34,629
Likes: 2,550
From: Schiller Park, ILL Member: #317
Originally Posted by kpowr82
I guess you can't blame GM engineers and bean counters for using a trans that barely supports the stock power output. Sure, there are plenty of guys that have high mile stock trannys in 400+ hp applications, but there are also a hell of alot of guys like myself that have one take a dump at 23,000 miles barely making 385 rwhp.
Can't expect GM to build us a full stock drivetrain that will handle 100..150..200, etc., extra horsepower beyond stock without needing some attention.
Funny that all the 6-speed LS1 guys I know are never surprised or pissed at GM when they burn up the stock clutch running an aggressive H/C setup + slicks, yet for some reason when lots of auto trans guys run the same setup and blow the stock trans they think GM somehow cheated them.
I realize that most properly built 4L60Es are much more expensive than a good T56 clutch, but the idea is the same......if you're going to put a bunch of extra power in front of the flexplate or flywheel, expect to have issues behind it if left untouched. Last edited by RPM WS6; Oct 16, 2005 at 10:33 PM.
Even though my experience hasn't been so great with the stock 4l60e, I will be the first to admit that I rag on a transmission probably harder than most people. I never expected the transmission to hold up anyways for my setup, but I'm sure it has more to do with my driving. I manually shift my transmission like it's a standard sometimes. I had my transmission "fixed", yes, because I have not learned how to do it myself yet. The first time my tranny quit, I just replaced it with another stock one that lasted about 3 months...So I got a guy who in my opinion does good work to rebuild one for me with everything that he thought would make it better and guess what? I still manually shift my auto a lot and I have had no problems. IMO, getting it built right is just part of modding the car.