What causes A4's to break?
12-07-2006, 03:48 PM
#21
Here we go again.
I say power/torque are #1 killers. I have mine set to shift @ 6000 from 1-2 and 5900 2-3 and 3-4. Raised rev limiter to 6400 b/c tranny couldn't keep up. Spray a 125 shot through the shifts= two 11.7x runs and a bad tranny. It was stock and I wanted to build it so I had my fun.........BTW tranny had 110,000 miles on it. Busted the planetaries.....
I say power/torque are #1 killers. I have mine set to shift @ 6000 from 1-2 and 5900 2-3 and 3-4. Raised rev limiter to 6400 b/c tranny couldn't keep up. Spray a 125 shot through the shifts= two 11.7x runs and a bad tranny. It was stock and I wanted to build it so I had my fun.........BTW tranny had 110,000 miles on it. Busted the planetaries.....
12-07-2006, 03:53 PM
#22
Originally Posted by Joel_SS
shifting at 6800 will not only kill your tranny but your stock shortblock as well..
GM only rates them at 6000 rpm to...
GM only rates them at 6000 rpm to...
As for tyhe 4l60 weak point, it's really the planataries, they really can't take anythign over 500 rwhp. Once you get to that point, the planataries themselves will break. The clutches, all that stuff sure you can build the hell out of them to withstand more then the actual transmission internals are good for.
IMO, you have a car that's running 10.9 or faster, you should have already bought an aftermarket tranny (th400, th350, powerglide) Or you can be playing the t56 exchange program, and clutch of the month game)
12-07-2006, 04:06 PM
#23
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
luck and nothing more. no tranny is put together the same and there is always an exception to the rule, no matter how few. RPM's are still the #1 killer no matter how you roll the dice.
it's also important to note that they may not be going WOT much. you're only going to touch those 6000+ shift points when you go WOT. if you never race your car and never go over 6000 rpm's, it's not going to matter.
we're not talking about a stalled tranny with no cooler here. few people on these boards are stupid enough to do that, so that isn't the issue here.
proof of this is that there are plenty of people making 400rwhp with a forced induction setup and stock shift points and their tranny lasts a while. talk to the FI guys. a cammed car with raised shift points and a lesser rwhp rating will kill a 4L60E faster than an FI guy making more rwhp and stock shift points.
it's also important to note that they may not be going WOT much. you're only going to touch those 6000+ shift points when you go WOT. if you never race your car and never go over 6000 rpm's, it's not going to matter.
we're not talking about a stalled tranny with no cooler here. few people on these boards are stupid enough to do that, so that isn't the issue here.
proof of this is that there are plenty of people making 400rwhp with a forced induction setup and stock shift points and their tranny lasts a while. talk to the FI guys. a cammed car with raised shift points and a lesser rwhp rating will kill a 4L60E faster than an FI guy making more rwhp and stock shift points.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match here....just let the original poster know that numerous people have done what he is asking about with plenty of success. For everyone who says that RPM's kill the trannies, someone can prove them wrong. For everyone that says power kills the trannies, someone can prove them wrong. And I suppose someone could even disprove the heat theory although I doubt that. And I talked to one of my buddies with cammed/stalled/stock tranny and he just turned over 11K miles since the install and 100+ passes at the track. That's proof enough for me since I plan to go with his exact setup.
Last edited by 99Hawk262; 12-07-2006 at 06:29 PM.
12-07-2006, 08:13 PM
#24
Tech Resident
Originally Posted by Ragtop 99
Based upon my experience, I think it is torque that is the bigger killer. You see guys on the spray with a stock cam chew up these trannies and they're not spinning higher than 6200. I think you see more burnt clutches and trashed bands then hard part breaks. Guys with stalls and drag tires are really loading the drivetrain.
about your theory on nitrous being torque related, i disagree with that. the reason why i still say RPM's is because when you spray, the RPM's shoot up very quickly and hang up very high.
i think it's more a combination of high torque over high RPM's and i think torque kills 4L60E's more often than RPM's, but that's because there's 50 times more 4L60E's running around out there with stock shift points.
all i'm saying is when push comes to shove, a 400rwhp car shifting at 6,800 rpm's will break A LOT faster than a 400rwhp car shifting at 6,000 rpm's. in fact, i'd be willing to bet a 400rwhp car shifting at 6.800 rpm's will break faster than a 450rwhp car shifting at 6,000 rpm's.
but nothing is an exact science.
Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
A few months ago you introduced this as a "theory" you had, and now it's fact?
12-07-2006, 08:37 PM
#25
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
the reason why i say RPM's are the bigger killer is because i see cammed cars chewing up 4L60E's faster than FI cars...but nothing is an exact science.
12-07-2006, 09:15 PM
#26
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
there's always talk on "what is the max power my 4L60E can take" or "what can i do to make my 4L60E last?"
i've been doing a lot of thinking lately. most people say a 4L60E won't last past 400rwhp...but yet there are a few out there that do.
these are the things i have noticed:
- stock f-bodies rarely break a 4L60E
- bolt-on cars rarely ever break a 4L60E
- cammed cars break 4L60E's all the time
now, A4's generally cannot reach 400rwhp with a bolt-on car. they reach 400rwhp once they add a cam. most people then start seeing trans problems. i got to thinking, and what if the power isn't really the biggest problem here? maybe the biggest problem is once people put in cams, they change their shift points and rev limiter? what if the biggest reason why 4L60E's break is cammed cars generally move their shifts from 6000rpm's stock to 6800+rpms?
people blame the failing 4L60E's on:
- heat
- power
what if RPM's are worse than the horsepower level? what if RPM's are the REAL serial killer? maybe these stock 4L60E's putting down 450rwhp are lasting because the shift points haven't been changed.
no one can argue that heat and power ARE factors of failing 4L60E's, but what if RPM's are the biggest problem of all? what if we can preserve our 4L60E's simply by keeping our shift points stock?
i just thought this could spark some interesting conversation.
i've been doing a lot of thinking lately. most people say a 4L60E won't last past 400rwhp...but yet there are a few out there that do.
these are the things i have noticed:
- stock f-bodies rarely break a 4L60E
- bolt-on cars rarely ever break a 4L60E
- cammed cars break 4L60E's all the time
now, A4's generally cannot reach 400rwhp with a bolt-on car. they reach 400rwhp once they add a cam. most people then start seeing trans problems. i got to thinking, and what if the power isn't really the biggest problem here? maybe the biggest problem is once people put in cams, they change their shift points and rev limiter? what if the biggest reason why 4L60E's break is cammed cars generally move their shifts from 6000rpm's stock to 6800+rpms?
people blame the failing 4L60E's on:
- heat
- power
what if RPM's are worse than the horsepower level? what if RPM's are the REAL serial killer? maybe these stock 4L60E's putting down 450rwhp are lasting because the shift points haven't been changed.
no one can argue that heat and power ARE factors of failing 4L60E's, but what if RPM's are the biggest problem of all? what if we can preserve our 4L60E's simply by keeping our shift points stock?
i just thought this could spark some interesting conversation.
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
no sir, speak to a trans builder. rpm's are far more deadly than heat. rpm's are the reason why 4L60E's break a few days after a h/c package. heat can't possibly do that. that causes long term damage.
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
RPM's are still the #1 killer no matter how you roll the dice.
Last edited by 99Hawk262; 12-07-2006 at 09:21 PM.
12-07-2006, 09:22 PM
#27
Tech Resident
Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
Pretty strong statements for opinions. Sounds like you got it all figured out.
12-07-2006, 09:28 PM
#28
RPM's have also NOT caused a tranny to fail on the first WOT run. It goes both ways. It is far from inconclusive. I will never say that RPM's DON'T hurt a tranny because obviously some people have had just that happen. But just as many have NOT had it happen. You could very well be on to something.....I'm just not personally convinced due to what I have witnessed. Maybe I'll throw a cam in and blow my tranny immediately. If that's the case, you'll be the first to hear about it....guaranteed 
. But with the successes I've seen firsthand, I think I'll take that gamble.
. But with the successes I've seen firsthand, I think I'll take that gamble.
12-07-2006, 09:29 PM
#29
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i read that the 2001 4l60e's had some different internals, does anyone know if these are ls1 trannies or something like truck trannies?
kinda like the 2001 engines had better internals
kinda like the 2001 engines had better internals
12-08-2006, 01:06 AM
#33
Tech Resident
Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
RPM's have also NOT caused a tranny to fail on the first WOT run. It goes both ways. It is far from inconclusive. I will never say that RPM's DON'T hurt a tranny because obviously some people have had just that happen. But just as many have NOT had it happen. You could very well be on to something.....I'm just not personally convinced due to what I have witnessed. Maybe I'll throw a cam in and blow my tranny immediately. If that's the case, you'll be the first to hear about it....guaranteed . But with the successes I've seen firsthand, I think I'll take that gamble.
. But with the successes I've seen firsthand, I think I'll take that gamble.again, research. hardly ANYONE blows their stock 4L60E's with full bolt-on's. the damage doesn't occur til they cam it. it's all about shift points.
Originally Posted by 99Hawk262
I don't think the internals were different from year to year on the LS1's....you may be thinking of the 4L65E? But I'm not sure what year that came out....I wanna say '99 for the trucks.
12-08-2006, 02:36 AM
#34
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i always assumed TQ/hp would be the worst strain. i dont think 7000 rpm will put as much strain on a transmission than a hard launch off the line. honestly hasnt more transmissions fried off the launch than any other time. id almost put a paycheck on that.
and RPM/heat kinda go hand in hand. saying RPM causes the problem and saying heat didnt. is kinda an oximoron.
and even TQ strain. that is heat also. a force pressing agasint another something creates heat. esp in regard to puting the petal to the metal every time you drive from a stoplight. in the end...
i would have to say TQ/hp would be the biggest killer. you can help precent heat and dissipate it alot eaiser than you can make your tranny able to withstand a hard launch.
what transmission would last longer. a car that drove at 5000 rpm all day but never did any hard launches at all. a car that did nothing but repeat hard launches over and over if only halfway through first gear. the car driving 5k rpm will be running alot hotter. but i gurantee you the car doing short quick hard launches will tear to pieces alot sooner.
so Torque/traction is the killer haha
and RPM/heat kinda go hand in hand. saying RPM causes the problem and saying heat didnt. is kinda an oximoron.
and even TQ strain. that is heat also. a force pressing agasint another something creates heat. esp in regard to puting the petal to the metal every time you drive from a stoplight. in the end...
i would have to say TQ/hp would be the biggest killer. you can help precent heat and dissipate it alot eaiser than you can make your tranny able to withstand a hard launch.
what transmission would last longer. a car that drove at 5000 rpm all day but never did any hard launches at all. a car that did nothing but repeat hard launches over and over if only halfway through first gear. the car driving 5k rpm will be running alot hotter. but i gurantee you the car doing short quick hard launches will tear to pieces alot sooner.
so Torque/traction is the killer haha
12-08-2006, 03:56 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by nomorews6
I am looking into modding my car. I have a TR224 / TCI 3500 right now, and have plans for lt's, ls6 intake then heads. As I am thinking more about it, I have been thinking about FAST intake, bigger cam etc. Then I realized I could be putting out over 400rwhp - sounds like the stock a4 wouldn't take kindly to that! Would for some reason the TR224 be more gentle on the stock a4 than the TREX? What are your thoughts?
12-08-2006, 08:13 AM
#36
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My stock tranny is living fine
145 passes, shift points at 6800, hard hooking 1.5x 60's
475rwhp and the occasional 50-100shot on top of it.
4000lb race weight, 3200 stall, see sig.
145 passes, shift points at 6800, hard hooking 1.5x 60's
475rwhp and the occasional 50-100shot on top of it.
4000lb race weight, 3200 stall, see sig.
12-08-2006, 08:26 AM
#37
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
no, the internals were slightly different. the truck 4L60E's are weaker than the car 4L60E's. for instance, the truck 4L60E's lack the corvette servo. this leads to the clutches burning up more often.
12-08-2006, 08:42 AM
#38
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So how do you guys think my trans will hold up.
Vig3600 stall
B&M Trans Cooler
Custom Grind Cam(231/237 .589/.595 112 LSA)
Hooker Full Exhaust
Ls6 Intake
Mac Filter
Lid
New Tune coming soon.
Vig3600 stall
B&M Trans Cooler
Custom Grind Cam(231/237 .589/.595 112 LSA)
Hooker Full Exhaust
Ls6 Intake
Mac Filter
Lid
New Tune coming soon.
12-08-2006, 11:07 AM
#39
Originally Posted by VenomInside
So how do you guys think my trans will hold up.
Vig3600 stall
B&M Trans Cooler
Custom Grind Cam(231/237 .589/.595 112 LSA)
Hooker Full Exhaust
Ls6 Intake
Mac Filter
Lid
New Tune coming soon.
Vig3600 stall
B&M Trans Cooler
Custom Grind Cam(231/237 .589/.595 112 LSA)
Hooker Full Exhaust
Ls6 Intake
Mac Filter
Lid
New Tune coming soon.
The internal parts will not hold up long.. maybe a week at the most of a couple hard launches. I just had my 4L60E rebuilt to take a pretty good beating but im just gonna sale it and prob go with TH350 or something of that nature. My tranny has the 5 pinion rear planetary ( controls 1 and 2nd gear) also has the beast sunshell, also has the nitrous torque converter 3500, TCI pro clutches, deep pan, all the works but im just gonna sale it after dumping all that money in it. 
12-08-2006, 11:39 AM
#40
Originally Posted by bjamick
The internal parts will not hold up long.. maybe a week at the most of a couple hard launches.WHAT???? Where do you possibly get info to tell him that his trans will "last maybe a week" in a cam only car?
I've been cam only for nearly two years shifting at 6400rpm & beating the **** out of it every time I drive it and my trans is fine. To the origninal poster: Nobody can predict how long your trans will last, every car/trans is different and driving habits/current condition of the trans play a big role in how long it will last. What I can tell you is that anyone with a stock 4l60e trans in their car should be saving up for a built unit if you plan on adding considerable power over stock, regardless of how you make that additional power.