TCI converters exposed, Part II
10-07-2002, 09:08 PM
#21
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Patrick,
I saw this thread this morning, but just now had time to reply. When I saw the picture of the lining coming off the clutch in Yank's Exposed Webpage, my heart sank. A few years ago we had a handful of lockup converters come back to us with the clutch linings flaking off and traced it to a faulty batch of adhesive. We fixed this problem ASAP and haven't had a problem since then. As soon as I saw the picture this morning, I investigated the problem. I haven't actually seen any converters come back yet and all of the other 10" clutches in our facility are being checked. We haven't found any faulty clutches. We haven't had any customers contact us with a problem, so AFAIK, yours is an isolated incident.
Now, I know that you've had quite a few Yank converters, so you're more than qualified to tell what does and doesn't work as far as torque converters are concerned. However I've got a few points that the LS1Tech readers should know.
The converter in question is definitely a TCI torque converter, but it's a part #242932 not a #249932 as is being stated. TCI doesn't make a part number #249932. This converter is not rated at 4400 stall, it'll go 3900-4000 behind a mild LS1 engine. Some of the 242932s were made with the #7 pump, we now use the #6 pump, as it is more efficient on the big end. We rate the new 242932 (with the #6 pump) at 3500 stall. It'll flash a couple hundred higher than our rated stall speed and has good efficiency as well.
Patrick, you say that our converter is set at .200" turbine clearance. I'd be surprised if it's even close to what you're saying. Our spec is .125". This is important for maintaining efficiency.
Patrick said, "Most shocking is the clutch. TCI charges customers a premium for a carbon ceramic clutch. This one had a cheap, black paper clutch that had disintigrated and trashed the tranny. The cheap stamped steel cover (not billet like PI or Yank) warped, causing high spots and stress cracks. These act like razor blades and will trash a paper clutch in no time. Kevin Winstead said this could not happen. Sorry Kevin, it can and it did. 500 miles. That's all."
Patrick, I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's not factual.
1. TCI customers are not charged a premium for the carbon clutch lining. It's standard in every LS1 converter that we sell.
2. It's not a carbon ceramic material like you claim that we say. It's also not a black paper as you claim. We advertise this proprietary lining as our "carbon lining". It's a very durable, very expensive OE grade lining that has been modified for our applications and it doesn't chatter.
3. Your statement about our steel cover developing stress cracks which act as razor blades is completely unsubstantiated. I've never seen one of these covers crack.
4. Only a fool would say that none of their converters could ever fail. I know that we will have some converters fail. So will Yank, Precision, Midwest, etc. My goal is to make our converters as durable as possible. If I find a problem with our converter's design, I'll fix it.
If a customer is not happy with their converter, we're just a phone call away. We have a full staff of Tech/Sales people on duty, as well as three full time engineers to make sure that any problems are handled promptly.
In Yank's TCI Converters exposed page, it states that the lining fell off because of a bad bonding process, then two pictures down it states that the razor blade stress cracks peeled the lining off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Patrick said, "Oh, by the way, they lied to this customer about the clutch. Carbon ceramic would never had worn out like this one did, LOL! Sorry to post something negative like this, but Kevin threw down the gauntlet."
I don't know who told the customer that this was carbon ceramic, but I know better. BTW I'm not sure when I threw the gauntlet down, so I'm glad that you told me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Just wanted to set the record straight.
Take Care,
Kevin
<small>[ October 07, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Winstead ]</small>
I saw this thread this morning, but just now had time to reply. When I saw the picture of the lining coming off the clutch in Yank's Exposed Webpage, my heart sank. A few years ago we had a handful of lockup converters come back to us with the clutch linings flaking off and traced it to a faulty batch of adhesive. We fixed this problem ASAP and haven't had a problem since then. As soon as I saw the picture this morning, I investigated the problem. I haven't actually seen any converters come back yet and all of the other 10" clutches in our facility are being checked. We haven't found any faulty clutches. We haven't had any customers contact us with a problem, so AFAIK, yours is an isolated incident.
Now, I know that you've had quite a few Yank converters, so you're more than qualified to tell what does and doesn't work as far as torque converters are concerned. However I've got a few points that the LS1Tech readers should know.
The converter in question is definitely a TCI torque converter, but it's a part #242932 not a #249932 as is being stated. TCI doesn't make a part number #249932. This converter is not rated at 4400 stall, it'll go 3900-4000 behind a mild LS1 engine. Some of the 242932s were made with the #7 pump, we now use the #6 pump, as it is more efficient on the big end. We rate the new 242932 (with the #6 pump) at 3500 stall. It'll flash a couple hundred higher than our rated stall speed and has good efficiency as well.
Patrick, you say that our converter is set at .200" turbine clearance. I'd be surprised if it's even close to what you're saying. Our spec is .125". This is important for maintaining efficiency.
Patrick said, "Most shocking is the clutch. TCI charges customers a premium for a carbon ceramic clutch. This one had a cheap, black paper clutch that had disintigrated and trashed the tranny. The cheap stamped steel cover (not billet like PI or Yank) warped, causing high spots and stress cracks. These act like razor blades and will trash a paper clutch in no time. Kevin Winstead said this could not happen. Sorry Kevin, it can and it did. 500 miles. That's all."
Patrick, I'm not sure where you got your information, but it's not factual.
1. TCI customers are not charged a premium for the carbon clutch lining. It's standard in every LS1 converter that we sell.
2. It's not a carbon ceramic material like you claim that we say. It's also not a black paper as you claim. We advertise this proprietary lining as our "carbon lining". It's a very durable, very expensive OE grade lining that has been modified for our applications and it doesn't chatter.
3. Your statement about our steel cover developing stress cracks which act as razor blades is completely unsubstantiated. I've never seen one of these covers crack.
4. Only a fool would say that none of their converters could ever fail. I know that we will have some converters fail. So will Yank, Precision, Midwest, etc. My goal is to make our converters as durable as possible. If I find a problem with our converter's design, I'll fix it.
If a customer is not happy with their converter, we're just a phone call away. We have a full staff of Tech/Sales people on duty, as well as three full time engineers to make sure that any problems are handled promptly.
In Yank's TCI Converters exposed page, it states that the lining fell off because of a bad bonding process, then two pictures down it states that the razor blade stress cracks peeled the lining off. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Patrick said, "Oh, by the way, they lied to this customer about the clutch. Carbon ceramic would never had worn out like this one did, LOL! Sorry to post something negative like this, but Kevin threw down the gauntlet."
I don't know who told the customer that this was carbon ceramic, but I know better. BTW I'm not sure when I threw the gauntlet down, so I'm glad that you told me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
Just wanted to set the record straight.
Take Care,
Kevin
<small>[ October 07, 2002, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: Kevin Winstead ]</small>
10-07-2002, 09:16 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II I love how raughammer was the one that posted about the TCI converters and is for yank. But he is on yanks web site. But it was a great post i have to say and will definately take everyones advice on the torque converter. Definately gonna get the Yank 4400. Just had to point out the website thing. Oh colonel is on it also.
10-07-2002, 10:04 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Well guy's I just thought I would chime in a bit and say that my first converter was a YANK and this was when I first got in to these f-body cars. Since then I change out the converter and went with a 3200 Vig and shaved off a tremendous amount of time but finally gave up on the 4L60E. I now have the Trans-king bulletproof th350 w/transbrake and the J9 converter and this converter allowed me to cut low 1.40's 60's consistantly so you guy's with complaints, Good luck!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />
<small>[ October 07, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: BADZ ]</small>
<small>[ October 07, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: BADZ ]</small>
10-08-2002, 12:04 AM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Mr KFC http://www.converter.cc/conversion_kits.htm
And the Hammer http://www.converter.cc/index.html
I mean hey if a company put me on its website i probably would put in a good work for them too. Ha im just joking. Yank seems to be the only converter putting guys in the 10s NA with 346 CID
And the Hammer http://www.converter.cc/index.html
I mean hey if a company put me on its website i probably would put in a good work for them too. Ha im just joking. Yank seems to be the only converter putting guys in the 10s NA with 346 CID
10-08-2002, 12:24 AM
#26
Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II JohnPayne,
You have some valid points about the Yank Super Thrusters. Yank had enough clutch problems on '01-02 F-Bodies to pull them from the market. There have been fewer problems on '98-00 F-Bodies and virtually no problems on '97-02 C-5s and LT-1 F-Bodies. Mike is very well aware of the problem. He has cut open plenty of Super Thruster 3500s and replaced them under warranty to know what the problem is.
To rectify it, Yank is coming out with a new line of Street/Strip converters for the LS-1 F-body market (and the upcoming GTO). The first will be a Yank Super Stock 3800, followed by a Super Stock 3600. These converters will have all new construction along with a new clutch design. Hopefully, Yank will again be able to compete in the popular street/strip market with converters that will outlast even the stock converters. Time will be the judge of that.
The purpose of exposing the TCI converters is to show that Yank is not the only company experiencing clutch problems. It's a universal problem all converter companies experience (or will). TCI just made it sound like their converter design was so much better, they were immune to the problems Yank and Precision experience.
When you outsell the competition by a great margin, you are going to have more failures soley based on the numbers, not the percentages. Yank sold 700 LS1 converters last year. If 50 were bad, that would be around 7% failure. If TCI sold 100 last year and only had problems with 10, they would still have a higher failure rate (from a percentage standpoint) even though they would have fewer failures.
Again, this thread is not about bashing as much as it is about sharing information. I'm sorry if the truth hurts some of you.
You have some valid points about the Yank Super Thrusters. Yank had enough clutch problems on '01-02 F-Bodies to pull them from the market. There have been fewer problems on '98-00 F-Bodies and virtually no problems on '97-02 C-5s and LT-1 F-Bodies. Mike is very well aware of the problem. He has cut open plenty of Super Thruster 3500s and replaced them under warranty to know what the problem is.
To rectify it, Yank is coming out with a new line of Street/Strip converters for the LS-1 F-body market (and the upcoming GTO). The first will be a Yank Super Stock 3800, followed by a Super Stock 3600. These converters will have all new construction along with a new clutch design. Hopefully, Yank will again be able to compete in the popular street/strip market with converters that will outlast even the stock converters. Time will be the judge of that.
The purpose of exposing the TCI converters is to show that Yank is not the only company experiencing clutch problems. It's a universal problem all converter companies experience (or will). TCI just made it sound like their converter design was so much better, they were immune to the problems Yank and Precision experience.
When you outsell the competition by a great margin, you are going to have more failures soley based on the numbers, not the percentages. Yank sold 700 LS1 converters last year. If 50 were bad, that would be around 7% failure. If TCI sold 100 last year and only had problems with 10, they would still have a higher failure rate (from a percentage standpoint) even though they would have fewer failures.
Again, this thread is not about bashing as much as it is about sharing information. I'm sorry if the truth hurts some of you.
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
10-08-2002, 10:28 AM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">originally posted by Colonel:
On Yanks website? Where?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">originally posted by sited12:
Mr KFC http://www.converter.cc/conversion_kits.htm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />
On Yanks website? Where?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">originally posted by sited12:
Mr KFC http://www.converter.cc/conversion_kits.htm</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"><img border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" title="" src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" />
10-09-2002, 12:58 AM
#28
Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">To rectify it, Yank is coming out with a new line of Street/Strip converters for the LS-1 F-body market (and the upcoming GTO). The first will be a Yank Super Stock 3800, followed by a Super Stock 3600. These converters will have all new construction along with a new clutch design. Hopefully, Yank will again be able to compete in the popular street/strip market with converters that will outlast even the stock converters. Time will be the judge of that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As a gesture of good faith maybe Mike should send the first batch of these new "Super Stock" converters to all of his customers who have had an ST3500 converter failure. If he did that I might forget about the money I payed him to get mine repaired only 8 months into his 2 year warranty. As an ST3500 owner I am kind of chapped by the whole issue of getting rid of the ST line. Makes me feel like I am just stuck with the thing and don't have much recourse if anything should go wrong with my current Yank. BTW this was on a 99 car that the converter clutch failed. My .02
10-09-2002, 10:02 AM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II I think this whole comparision thing is foolish.
TCI has been around forever and makes great converters for all types of vehicles (including the LS1).
Yank makes great converters for the LS1 crowd and others (particularly the TP series)
This just looks like a feeble attempt at price justification to me.
Customer demand drives prices more than anything else. If Yanks converters continue to perform as well as they do and people want to buy them then they can command the price they are asking for them.
If TCI's new line of LS1 converters matches that performance of Yanks offerings and prove durable then Yank will probably have to rethink their pricing strategy.
I had a TP4400 converter in my car when I had the 200R in it. It worked great. I had a TCI converter in my old 94 Lt1. It worked great.
I am not slagging either company, I think they both make great converters.
Chris
<small>[ October 09, 2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>
TCI has been around forever and makes great converters for all types of vehicles (including the LS1).
Yank makes great converters for the LS1 crowd and others (particularly the TP series)
This just looks like a feeble attempt at price justification to me.
Customer demand drives prices more than anything else. If Yanks converters continue to perform as well as they do and people want to buy them then they can command the price they are asking for them.
If TCI's new line of LS1 converters matches that performance of Yanks offerings and prove durable then Yank will probably have to rethink their pricing strategy.
I had a TP4400 converter in my car when I had the 200R in it. It worked great. I had a TCI converter in my old 94 Lt1. It worked great.
I am not slagging either company, I think they both make great converters.
Chris
<small>[ October 09, 2002, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: Chris ARE 360 ]</small>
10-09-2002, 01:53 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Here is the inside of a friend's Yank...I would also like to hear what you guys think happened to this one?
Yankphotos
Yankphotos
10-09-2002, 01:59 PM
#31
10-09-2002, 02:05 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II We simply want to know what could of caused this type of damage to the inside of the verter that's all. Can anyone explain?
10-09-2002, 02:06 PM
#34
Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Q:
<strong>Here is the inside of a friend's Yank...I would also like to hear what you guys think happened to this one?
Yankphotos</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No no no, make a seperate thread called Yank exposed part#1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
<strong>Here is the inside of a friend's Yank...I would also like to hear what you guys think happened to this one?
Yankphotos</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">No no no, make a seperate thread called Yank exposed part#1. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
10-09-2002, 02:18 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Terry, I couldn't tell you first off.
He had the converter in his car for about 3k miles and then all of a sudden the lock-up feature stopped working. We suspected everything from tunning to the tranny. Since, he had his tunning done by a professional and the tranny was brand new, we moved on to the converter. The converter was taken to a local Converter Shop and they tore the thing open and to our dismay found what you see in the pictures.
And before you guys start flaming, this car is cam only car. No nitrous or other power-adder. What could've tore the insides of the verter up like that? His tranny seemed fine and checked out ok.
Any insight?
Q
<small>[ October 09, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Q ]</small>
He had the converter in his car for about 3k miles and then all of a sudden the lock-up feature stopped working. We suspected everything from tunning to the tranny. Since, he had his tunning done by a professional and the tranny was brand new, we moved on to the converter. The converter was taken to a local Converter Shop and they tore the thing open and to our dismay found what you see in the pictures.
And before you guys start flaming, this car is cam only car. No nitrous or other power-adder. What could've tore the insides of the verter up like that? His tranny seemed fine and checked out ok.
Any insight?
Q
<small>[ October 09, 2002, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: Q ]</small>
10-09-2002, 04:09 PM
#37
Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Hard to tell why the pump and tubine blades are all torn up. Obviously, something got loose and messed it all up. I can tell you I'm pretty sure it's not the clutch. The scallops cut out of the Kevlar clutch are done that way by design so it doesn't appear to be clutch related. The clutch looks like new. Have any more photos? What happened to the tranny?
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2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
10-09-2002, 06:27 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Bent blades...especially torn blades, are usually caused by one of two things:
Running the tranny low on fluid or banging on the rev limiter.
John
Running the tranny low on fluid or banging on the rev limiter.
John
10-09-2002, 07:26 PM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Q:
<strong>Here is the inside of a friend's Yank...I would also like to hear what you guys think happened to this one?
Yankphotos</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thanks for posting the pics for me. well let me start off by saying i have never touched the rev limiter w/ this converter in the car and nor was my tranny fluid low. JUST ADMIT THAT YANK FUCKED UP AND GIVE ME MY $,$$$ BACK OR A NEW CONVERTER. i bet my money is looking nice in mikes pocket right now because i am stuck with trash. and the trash gave out on me at 3000 miles and my car aint even fast. <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" /> yank tp4400 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Andre
<strong>Here is the inside of a friend's Yank...I would also like to hear what you guys think happened to this one?
Yankphotos</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">thanks for posting the pics for me. well let me start off by saying i have never touched the rev limiter w/ this converter in the car and nor was my tranny fluid low. JUST ADMIT THAT YANK FUCKED UP AND GIVE ME MY $,$$$ BACK OR A NEW CONVERTER. i bet my money is looking nice in mikes pocket right now because i am stuck with trash. and the trash gave out on me at 3000 miles and my car aint even fast. <img border="0" alt="[barf]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_barf.gif" /> yank tp4400 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Andre
10-10-2002, 07:57 AM
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Re: TCI converters exposed, Part II Andre,
I not trying to start a flame or anything, but this is one topic I feel that I can contribute to.
From my experience, the two things that causes converter fins to break loose are too much HP or faulty brazing on the fins. When we were developing our 245mm converters on the dyno, I ripped the fins out of several turbines. That was with the little 675 hp motor, not the big block. We changed the way we braze the 245s and haven't broken one since then. However, John's theory is pretty interesting...
John,
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but could you expound upon your theory?
Take Care,
Kevin
I not trying to start a flame or anything, but this is one topic I feel that I can contribute to.
From my experience, the two things that causes converter fins to break loose are too much HP or faulty brazing on the fins. When we were developing our 245mm converters on the dyno, I ripped the fins out of several turbines. That was with the little 675 hp motor, not the big block. We changed the way we braze the 245s and haven't broken one since then. However, John's theory is pretty interesting...
John,
I'm not saying that you're wrong, but could you expound upon your theory?
Take Care,
Kevin