How many of you guys running stock 4l60 with heads and cam?
12-18-2007, 12:08 PM
#41
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My point is don't do a build and just expect your tranny to last, because the chance that it will fail is huge the more power you push and the higher you rev.
12-18-2007, 01:07 PM
#42
I have the stock 4L60E that came in my car. It has 76K on it and probably between 500-600 passes. It has had three different converters in it. The last converter I had sheared the mounting tabs off during a hard launch destroying the flexplate and damaging the starter. The only modification I have on mine is the vacuum modulator, which I can't tell a bit of difference with. My times are in my signature. Now that I have bragged on my stock tranny it will probably blow up when I get home!
12-18-2007, 11:39 PM
#43
The stock tranny will hold up if you maintain it and keep heat out of it.First of all i disconnected the the trans lines from running through the radiator.Next add a B&M deep pan,( 3 QUART) for a larger capacity.Put in a temp gauge and keep it under 220 when racing.While i agree it is a weak trans,mine has stayed together for 41 passes in the 10.50-10.60 range this season, and around 75 passes in the 11.60-11.70 range from last year.I never make a run with the temp over 175 degrees,and usually let it cool for a half hour. So if your tight on cash, take it easy on the tranny untill you can afford to have it go down on ya!!!!
12-19-2007, 12:32 AM
#44
My stock tranny lasted about 6 high 11 sec passes before it puked it's guts. I've had my arguments with Choco too.... You are just adding fuel to the fire by posting back at him. There are many reasons a stock tranny won't hold up.
1. It has a weak pump slide spring and when you rev higher than 5500 rpm pressure can start dropping off.
2. The clutch clearances throughout the tranny are not that of a performance setting.
3. Combine 1 and 2 and you have a recipe for a worn out tranny, even at stock power levels.
1. It has a weak pump slide spring and when you rev higher than 5500 rpm pressure can start dropping off.
2. The clutch clearances throughout the tranny are not that of a performance setting.
3. Combine 1 and 2 and you have a recipe for a worn out tranny, even at stock power levels.
12-19-2007, 07:19 PM
#45
Tech Resident
Just curious... In response to your number one reason, couldn't you switch the spring out with a larger spring that can apply more force to raise line pressure. I could be totally wrong but it seems like a simple swap that's cheap abd that could help out, at least a little?
The stock sunshell is weak and is known to break, which will cause a loss of 2nd gear, 4th gear and reverse. The stock accumulators are plastic and crack. The input/output shafts break frequently. There are NUMEROUS lubrication problems inside a stock 4L60E.
The reason why the sponsors on this site have such successful transmissions is because they know the areas to drill out to provide better lubrication. Swapping in better parts won't do a damn thing if you don't have the proper lubrication. For example, stock 4L60E's break the planets every now and again, but it's not because the planets are weak. It's because of lubrication problems. The stock planets don't get the proper lubrication, so they get an overdose of heat, causing them to turn brittle and crack. This is evident by blue marks caused by overheating. Once the sponsors fix the lubrication issues, the stock planets practically never break, or so I hear.
What else is weak? The input drum, I believe the low roller clutch...the list goes on and on.
The 4L60E is not a bad transmission. It's a great transmission for what it's engineered for - light and medium duty applications where fuel economy in a 4 speed automatic is required. This transmission was NEVER designed for high performance applications, and it's ironic that when the LS1 F-body was engineered, GM put a transmission designed for the sake of fuel economy and emissions standards behind the highest output smallblock V8 they ever engineered
Our cars should have been given 12-bolts/4L80E's stock, not 10-bolts/4L60E's.
12-20-2007, 12:53 AM
#46
If you replace one weak link, the next weakest link will fail. There are many more weak links than that.
The stock sunshell is weak and is known to break, which will cause a loss of 2nd gear, 4th gear and reverse. The stock accumulators are plastic and crack. The input/output shafts break frequently. There are NUMEROUS lubrication problems inside a stock 4L60E.
The reason why the sponsors on this site have such successful transmissions is because they know the areas to drill out to provide better lubrication. Swapping in better parts won't do a damn thing if you don't have the proper lubrication. For example, stock 4L60E's break the planets every now and again, but it's not because the planets are weak. It's because of lubrication problems. The stock planets don't get the proper lubrication, so they get an overdose of heat, causing them to turn brittle and crack. This is evident by blue marks caused by overheating. Once the sponsors fix the lubrication issues, the stock planets practically never break, or so I hear.
What else is weak? The input drum, I believe the low roller clutch...the list goes on and on.
The 4L60E is not a bad transmission. It's a great transmission for what it's engineered for - light and medium duty applications where fuel economy in a 4 speed automatic is required. This transmission was NEVER designed for high performance applications, and it's ironic that when the LS1 F-body was engineered, GM put a transmission designed for the sake of fuel economy and emissions standards behind the highest output smallblock V8 they ever engineered
Our cars should have been given 12-bolts/4L80E's stock, not 10-bolts/4L60E's.
The stock sunshell is weak and is known to break, which will cause a loss of 2nd gear, 4th gear and reverse. The stock accumulators are plastic and crack. The input/output shafts break frequently. There are NUMEROUS lubrication problems inside a stock 4L60E.
The reason why the sponsors on this site have such successful transmissions is because they know the areas to drill out to provide better lubrication. Swapping in better parts won't do a damn thing if you don't have the proper lubrication. For example, stock 4L60E's break the planets every now and again, but it's not because the planets are weak. It's because of lubrication problems. The stock planets don't get the proper lubrication, so they get an overdose of heat, causing them to turn brittle and crack. This is evident by blue marks caused by overheating. Once the sponsors fix the lubrication issues, the stock planets practically never break, or so I hear.
What else is weak? The input drum, I believe the low roller clutch...the list goes on and on.
The 4L60E is not a bad transmission. It's a great transmission for what it's engineered for - light and medium duty applications where fuel economy in a 4 speed automatic is required. This transmission was NEVER designed for high performance applications, and it's ironic that when the LS1 F-body was engineered, GM put a transmission designed for the sake of fuel economy and emissions standards behind the highest output smallblock V8 they ever engineered
Our cars should have been given 12-bolts/4L80E's stock, not 10-bolts/4L60E's.
I always understood that the Auto's were alot more forgiving on the 10 bolt than the M6's. And that they could handle a H/C stalled auto for the most part as long as the rear was preloaded prior to launch instead of mashing it off idle?
Which one is the weaker link? The tranny or the rear?
12-20-2007, 09:39 AM
#47
Tech Resident
But the transmission is a FAR weaker link in your setup than the rear.On a H/C setup? DEFINITELY the tranny by a 1000000000%.
12-20-2007, 05:06 PM
#51
How so? Do you disagree with his comments on the tranny being weaker than the rear in these cars? I see quite a few cars in the drag racing section running 10's and 11's with the stock 10 bolt but I don't see too many on the stock 4l60...
12-20-2007, 05:33 PM
#52
Tech Resident
On an A4, you have a much better chance of blowing the stock tranny than the rear end. That's an undeniable fact based upon real world experience and numbers. It's simple risk management. Now, that's not to say that you won't break your rear end first. Maybe you got a poorly manufactured rear end and a very well-made tranny. Stranger things have happened, but according to the data that's available, all signs point to the stock tranny being the weakest link in a H/C car.
12-20-2007, 05:49 PM
#53
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What has been pointed out, but no one understands. Is that the simple fact is these 4L60E's did not get the reputation they have for being bulletproof. They are prone to failure in even stock or mild bolt on cars, that being said they are good for what they are "designed" for.
My problem is the only things thats not built on my car is the rearend. But even with a stall and some agressive launches and nitrous passes its been fine. That and the fact that on street tires it doesn't hook up well enough at low speeds to transfer much shock to the rearend.
My problem is the only things thats not built on my car is the rearend. But even with a stall and some agressive launches and nitrous passes its been fine. That and the fact that on street tires it doesn't hook up well enough at low speeds to transfer much shock to the rearend.
12-20-2007, 08:52 PM
#54
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No, he agrees wholehartedly with me. He's just trying to stir the pot. Take comments like his with a grain of salt. When people toss out an answer directed at a certain person without a response to support it, it's usually just to start a flame war. The forum's full of dicks like that.
On an A4, you have a much better chance of blowing the stock tranny than the rear end. That's an undeniable fact based upon real world experience and numbers. It's simple risk management. Now, that's not to say that you won't break your rear end first. Maybe you got a poorly manufactured rear end and a very well-made tranny. Stranger things have happened, but according to the data that's available, all signs point to the stock tranny being the weakest link in a H/C car.
On an A4, you have a much better chance of blowing the stock tranny than the rear end. That's an undeniable fact based upon real world experience and numbers. It's simple risk management. Now, that's not to say that you won't break your rear end first. Maybe you got a poorly manufactured rear end and a very well-made tranny. Stranger things have happened, but according to the data that's available, all signs point to the stock tranny being the weakest link in a H/C car.
My point is that you are basing all of your ramblings on what you've read, whereas everything I'm saying is based on personal experiences through cars I've owned, driven, or touched in person. Grain of salt indeed.
12-20-2007, 09:01 PM
#55
Tech Resident
Bang your head against a brick wall, indeed. I didn't realize you had to own the exact setup in question to know anything at all about it.
12-21-2007, 01:06 AM
#56
These threads can go on and on forever. Everybody means well, and everybody has a good idea or experience... but they don't agree all the time.
At the end of the day it is simple, serious engine power increases have become normal... not the exception. Also, there is a way for us all to communicate instantly. And because everyone who participates here is competative by nature, there will always be rhetorical non fact based answers. That does not mean the poster has bad intentions or is lying, it means we all have different ways of gathering information. I chose to do everything you guys are doing but took it to an extreme level by committing to spend well over $10,000.00 on my 4L60E R&D program. For me it was a business decision, for you guys it is a personal decision basd on wants and needs for performance.
I would bet that if some of you had a shop, the tools, the resources and the skills you could build a nasty unit yourself. But at the end of the day you would be taking a medium duty unit and asking it to be a severe duty unit same as us builders do.
So it is all about expectations........ and that is what the OP was trying to get, an expectation about how long a unit will last in a given combination.
10 years ago a 500 hp car was the exception. Today it is the norm. Back then there was a similar debate about the 4L60E and the 700R4. Prior to that it was the big blocks vs the TH350, TH375 the Glide and the 700r4. I remember well when the TH400 was the unit of choice for big time power adder cars. Nowadays it is the Glide. We will always find weaknesses in powertrains.
It is all about ones expectations. The quicker you can accept the fact that if you are racing, you are breaking parts.... the sooner you will come to understanding that its all about expectations. If you want a bulletproof, cannot break it ever type tranny, bring me $5,500.00 and I'll build you a righteous Glide you won't break.
g
At the end of the day it is simple, serious engine power increases have become normal... not the exception. Also, there is a way for us all to communicate instantly. And because everyone who participates here is competative by nature, there will always be rhetorical non fact based answers. That does not mean the poster has bad intentions or is lying, it means we all have different ways of gathering information. I chose to do everything you guys are doing but took it to an extreme level by committing to spend well over $10,000.00 on my 4L60E R&D program. For me it was a business decision, for you guys it is a personal decision basd on wants and needs for performance.
I would bet that if some of you had a shop, the tools, the resources and the skills you could build a nasty unit yourself. But at the end of the day you would be taking a medium duty unit and asking it to be a severe duty unit same as us builders do.
So it is all about expectations........ and that is what the OP was trying to get, an expectation about how long a unit will last in a given combination.
10 years ago a 500 hp car was the exception. Today it is the norm. Back then there was a similar debate about the 4L60E and the 700R4. Prior to that it was the big blocks vs the TH350, TH375 the Glide and the 700r4. I remember well when the TH400 was the unit of choice for big time power adder cars. Nowadays it is the Glide. We will always find weaknesses in powertrains.
It is all about ones expectations. The quicker you can accept the fact that if you are racing, you are breaking parts.... the sooner you will come to understanding that its all about expectations. If you want a bulletproof, cannot break it ever type tranny, bring me $5,500.00 and I'll build you a righteous Glide you won't break.
g
12-21-2007, 06:01 AM
#57
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So if I have in my recollection the personal experiences of 35 people, that's worth less than your single personal experience? By your logic, mechanics mustn't have a clue how to work on a car unless they own that exact car themselves, right?
Bang your head against a brick wall, indeed. I didn't realize you had to own the exact setup in question to know anything at all about it.
Bang your head against a brick wall, indeed. I didn't realize you had to own the exact setup in question to know anything at all about it.
It would make this thread a nicer place..
12-21-2007, 11:51 AM
#59
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12-21-2007, 01:37 PM
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So if I have in my recollection the personal experiences of 35 people, that's worth less than your single personal experience? By your logic, mechanics mustn't have a clue how to work on a car unless they own that exact car themselves, right?
Bang your head against a brick wall, indeed. I didn't realize you had to own the exact setup in question to know anything at all about it.
Bang your head against a brick wall, indeed. I didn't realize you had to own the exact setup in question to know anything at all about it.
If so:
1.) My point is I've seen it happen. Call me old-fashioned, call me a cynic, but I believe real life more than the internet, and that isn't to say posts aren't true. Just better to believe what is tangible.
2.) Talk about apples and oranges. You aren't a mechanic, and that analogy doesn't match up. Learning by reading is one thing, learning by building then driving, or building then driving then breaking/fixing is a different level.
Escape route averted.
