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Top Republicans want GM to file Chapter 11

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Old 03-08-2009, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jimmy169
While you guys debate, keep in mind that pretty much all of the car companies around the world are asking their governments for help, including Toyota and Honda.
This is true. I thought it was funny in an ironic way.
Old 03-08-2009, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 325trooper
Chrysler got a huge military contract and sold Chrysler Defense, and we didn't have the credit crunch that we have today. And here they are asking for another bailout that makes the first one look like chump change.

So do you think that GM should not be asking for more, since apparently it's only been "over night"? Even GM knows the bailout they got isn't working, and it's been a little longer than over night. Handing them even more money is irresponsible. Unless you're a politician pandering for union votes.

Forget all that. Say the government gives them billions more, that they don't have, and they continue to fail like they are after the first bailout. What ever happened to all the rage over our national debt that we were seeing before last November? lol
Chrysler got a loan and paid it off. It's not a good comparison, which is my point. You brought it up like it was a bad idea at that time. Well, it worked. It's not even close to the same situation. Why bring it up in the first place? The reasons for the company being there were completely different. There aren't many industries that are as cyclical as the auto industry. Usually you can do things to insure loans and credit to make it through the rough times, like Ford did. GM was late to the party, and like most other people didn't see the credit market absolutely crashing. Chrysler has been in flux ever since before their sale to Cerberus.

Anyone who has payed attention to this situation from the beginning knew this wasn't going to be solved by the original amount. A representitive from Moodys testified that it was going to take close to 100b industry wide, but that it was STILL a risk worth taking when weighed against the alternative. Whether through loans or some bastardized version of bankruptcy, the government is ON THE HOOK for billions. EITHER WAY.

You can't expect capitalism and the free market to work in a global economy that doesn't see things the same way. You realize that the Prius doesn't exist if not for Japan's government subsidizing it, right? Due to government rules and regulations, Dodge is building a hybrid truck right now that they will loose at least 7k on per vehicle. That doesn't happen in a true free market. Gm and Chrysler have both made bad decisions to get where they are right now, but they wouldn't be in this postitionv without this global economic meltdown. The risk associated with keeping GM afloat to come out intact on the other side is worth it.
Old 03-09-2009, 12:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 7998
Would it help GM to go bankrupt and shred its debts, yes, plain and simple.
But considering GM's biggest debt is the 500-600,000 retirees pensions and medical benefits. Who would absorb them?

GM's future healthcare obligations is projected to be $47,000,000,000. $47 Billion
http://healthcare-economist.com/2009...lthcare-costs/

GM's annual pension costs $7 Billion
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/10/op...owenstein.html

Who will absorb that??
I guess the few of you who favor Bankruptcy, also favor the Goverment (Taxpayers) picking up that tab?

Or is the real shortsighted reason you favor bankruptcy a anti-union bias?
Or a anti-American auto industry bias?
Good points.
Old 03-09-2009, 08:02 AM
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Good kill off the UAW.

W
Old 03-09-2009, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by jdustu
You can't expect capitalism and the free market to work in a global economy that doesn't see things the same way.
So now your true colors are showing. Yes, evil capitalism does work. You may want to figure out how we got in this problem in the first place. Look in D.C.
Old 03-09-2009, 09:59 AM
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Capitalism does work, but as others have said you can blame our government for messing it up as it is too large. However I see another problem, projecting sales, and company growth is artificially increased by wall street as investors pour money into that company, and then when the REAL numbers come out, everybody yanks out and bam we have situations like this come up. Correct me if my idea is incorrect please.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:10 AM
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https://ls1tech.com/forums/11201140-post247.html

Relevant editorial.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jimmy169
While you guys debate, keep in mind that pretty much all of the car companies around the world are asking their governments for help, including Toyota and Honda.
There's a huge difference between a tiny 2 billion loan to a company that has been profitable for 59 years straight versus a 30 billion plus loan to a company that hasn't been profitable in years, that hasn't gained marketshare, that is openly shunned by the market and doesn't have a chance of repaying the loan.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:23 AM
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^^^ Nail on the head for you.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by 325trooper
So now your true colors are showing. Yes, evil capitalism does work. You may want to figure out how we got in this problem in the first place. Look in D.C.
You completely missed the point. We can't play be involved in a global game that plays by one set of rules while we play by another. That's not a "free market". Everyone praises Toyota for their forward thinking with the Prius. That car doesn't see the light of day with out huge subsidies from Japan. Brazil converted their infrastructure to an alternative fuel....how? The government subsidized it. Our government keeps passing new tougher regulations on fuel economy and tells the manufacturers they "better start building cars people want". Unless gas is $4/gallon, people don't want hybrids or small compacts.

How did we get into this problem, exactly? The subprime mortgage mess. How did that occur? No regulation.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:38 AM
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^^^ Blame the government for that mess as well All signs that our government is TOO BIG and the people of the U.S. will not excercize (sp?) their right to check the government.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by jdustu

How did we get into this problem, exactly? The subprime mortgage mess. How did that occur?
Barney Frank and his associates who forced banks to give bad loans so they could pander for poor peoples votes. Capitalism works great without government interference.
Old 03-09-2009, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by My1st Truck
Hey I finished up college. Having said that.
I just want to remind everyone that is the folks who went to college that got us in this whole economic mess in the first place.
They are losing their asses too.
I'm very happy for you. But I daresay you are not the majority. And Jon, it's "exercise"
Old 03-09-2009, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by My1st Truck
Hey I finished up college. Having said that.
I just want to remind everyone that is the folks who went to college that got us in this whole economic mess in the first place.
They are losing their asses too.
You have it backwards. The people that got us into this mess went to college. Not the people that went to college got us into this mess. There's a very big difference between those two sentences.
Old 03-09-2009, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
I'm very happy for you. But I daresay you are not the majority. And Jon, it's "exercise"
Yeah thats what I thought, brain isn't working too well on a monday at work thanks.
Old 03-09-2009, 12:56 PM
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Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz drives a Toyota, I can see why he thinks that
Old 03-09-2009, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by jdustu
You completely missed the point. We can't play be involved in a global game that plays by one set of rules while we play by another. That's not a "free market". Everyone praises Toyota for their forward thinking with the Prius. That car doesn't see the light of day with out huge subsidies from Japan. Brazil converted their infrastructure to an alternative fuel....how? The government subsidized it. Our government keeps passing new tougher regulations on fuel economy and tells the manufacturers they "better start building cars people want". Unless gas is $4/gallon, people don't want hybrids or small compacts.

How did we get into this problem, exactly? The subprime mortgage mess. How did that occur? No regulation.
Everyone praises Toyota for their forward thinking with the Prius. That car doesn't see the light of day with out huge subsidies from Japan.
Just wanted to point that out again since some don't want to read that.


Originally Posted by BanditTA
Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz drives a Toyota, I can see why he thinks that
And anti union.
Old 03-09-2009, 01:08 PM
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Well one could argue that being "pro-Union" is just as bad, considering how the UAW adversely affected the Big 3 for so long.
Old 03-09-2009, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Irunelevens
Well one could argue that being "pro-Union" is just as bad, considering how the UAW adversely affected the Big 3 for so long.
I will agree with you for once, I believe the UAW has been greedy in the past.
Old 03-11-2009, 10:20 AM
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What did Enron do when they finally convinced the government to deregulate electricity (aka less government).


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