Irunelevens

I'm not sure where you've been, but Ford quality has improved a LOT in the past few years.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Agreed. To the point where I'd say that it's quite FAR from 'sucks'.

It'llrun

I don't think increased size in a pony car adds to value in the least. It adds value in general, but not in performance models. If I wanted all that, I'll look at a Charger or maybe even a 300S. Then again, I ain't looking at Dodge for anything. As to the transmission strength, I'm not ready to say it's really stronger or better than others just yet. I wanna see THAT it can handle the punishment 1st. A gentleman's musclecar... I can't argue that one! Even if I were still 25(oh, the joy of that thought), I would probably agree with you there.

If I may be so bold as to ask, why? What have we seen from this 392 that makes it better? Does it provide scads more power? Can and/or does it hold together better? Has it proven more capable? It isn't even aluminum for cryin' out loud. And it SHOULD be for the price, not to mention this is 2010 and nearly everything is already or soon to be aluminum. It's bigger... That's about all it has going for it. The economy obviously stinks up the entire place and it hasn't shown itself the monster it needs to be at that price. The GT500 is about the only thing in its arena, and the matchup there does not look good for Dodge so far.

Looks are only a preference, so that's out the window. Nicer to drive... One would hope, considering it's bulk and wheelbase. The interior PALES in comparison and the lack of quality shines right through all the hysteria.

5K? Yeah, over a nearly FULLY OPTIONED Mustang GT. There are many more things included in the GT for the price... Most of them not even available on the Challenger. Take the navigation system, for example: The one used in Mustang is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the Challenger and includes SYNC, largely considered the top tier package available in any car under 100K. Even though it costs twice(or more) as much, the price of the Mustang is still notably lower than Challenger SRT8.

I'm more than just eager to see the new Z/28, but seriously, how is 12's outta the box a "joke" to anyone? It's a heavy sled and still hauls. Plus, it's 2 generations better than the previous model without the additional price comparetively, inflation and overall abilities considered. It's quicker, faster, better handling and all the while maintains basic efficiency while adding loads of comfort over the previous models(all of them). It also offers better outward vision... oh wait...

Okay, so it has its quircks... A joke, it's not. Including Mustang(non-Shelby), it hangs with or beats all comers so far in many classes, save true sports cars and those over 70K.

It would seem the problem here is, you're NOT thinking, or just have no idea the quality of Fords lately. Whether or not you choose to admit it, Ford quality is ranked AT LEAST as good as Toyota, long considered the benchmark of quality, these days. If you don't think so, go take a Ford of your choosing for a test drive. If you ultimately conclude it's junk or sucks, you ARE the odd man out. Fords consistently blast the likes of Dodge in test after test and study after study. It even handily shows better than GM, which it's been doing since the 80's, save Corvette... the ultimate American sports car automobile for every reason.

Believe this: I used to work for Dodge and will NOT buy a Dodge product due to their quality level. Even when I got the great discount offers, I still wouldn't purchase one. Why not? Simply put, I know the difference. Prior to stepping WAY UP, I owned 2 Dakotas and the family had at least 3 vans and a pickup. My dad owned them all the way back to the days of the Newport, quite possibly a car you've never even been inside of, which actually had decent quality for its day. In the 70's, when "The Big 3" dropped quality for quantity, they fell off the map... Dodge barely ever returned, lending quality to only a few models such as Viper.

onebaddakota

That tranny(A580) isn't exactly a new design, chief. It's been used by Mercedes for years. Guys are running 9s with that thing in SRTs at full weight. You should check out some other sites some time.
Well for me it's better simply because I won't need a blower to make serious power with it. The heads will flow close to 400 cfm when max ported. It's pushrod design make it easier and cheaper to work on. I can make 700+ HP NA or 4 digit power with a blower and yes, the blocks have been holding up to it. It will accept a large stroke up to 440 CI.
I realize the modular Ford motors can be modded to make impressive power. They have always required a blower to do so. I simply prefer the hemi and LS motors for their flexibility and overall less cost.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

ThisBlood147

So you're willing to spend 45-50K on a new SRT8 just to make 700 hp NA? I don't know what, if anything, that does for your credibility. I'm sure a crate 392 is a much better option for someone that thinks like you. And regardless, all that power in such a barge of a vehicle is still not going to impress the way it should, so who cares?

onebaddakota

I care, since it's going in my 2900lb truck with a carb on it.

It'llrun

The A580 is a Dodge transmission in these cases, made in the Kokomo plant, Indiana... MB versions are still made in Germany and have tighter tolerances and newer technology according to challanger forums talk and some other things I've read. From what I've heard/read, Dodge is planning a ZF unit for 2012. Well, maybe my faded memory is off on that. At any rate, I never claimed it was new, cheif... I said I'm not ready to say it's as strong as the others and that's still the case. Dodge is known for terrible transmissions in their vehicles almost across the board. I probably sold 200 of them per yr. when I worked for that company.

As for those running 9's, this is the 1st I've heard of any Dodge at full weight running 9's in at least... a long, long time. I looked over on LX forums and found one... SUPERCHARGED! High 9's, which is just fine with me, but at full weight, that's a healthy dose of "behind" the likes of GM and Ford at full weight. If it holds up, great. Of course, it's taking a distant 3rd place. The best I saw was 9.71, so I'll give it mid 9's. That's still 1/2 second back. Lighten it and the trans may hold to low 9's or better. There are guys running low 9's with GM's transmission and 8's with Fords. That tells us they're at least as capable as the Dodges.

700hp N/A isn't only a bunch to ask, it's too much to ask from a street driver. If I'm building a race car, unless it's class specific requiring N/A power, I'm just fine with turbos or any other power adder. 440ci is great, but we can nearly purchase that size engine from the factory anyway at this point and in some cases, it may be used, though I haven't sat down and figured CI in quite awhile. I already know a stock Modular can hold together around 2,000hp(probably more) and I seriously doubt that's ever going to be my goal... With that, I'm not concerned about what can be on that level.

I'm more interested in longevity and economy in a driver. I don't need 30mpg or more, but anything in the high teens works. Once you go to the level of that massive hp, you're looking at such a loss in the basics, you no longer have a credible street vehicle. 8's is plenty quick enough and any of these can handle the power for that as they are, engine and transmission from the looks. I'm under the impression the new 5.0 heads will already flow in the 400 range without modification... Seriously, I don't know if that's the case but even 350 will support plenty enough power. It certainly isn't all about flow anyway. I've seen cars run deep in the 8's with less than 350cfm flow numbers.

The power adder makes no difference to me, so I never have concerns in that area. Flexibility is also pointless to me... You're either building for power one way, or another. You'll build accordingly no matter your engine choice. Therefore, flexibility is nothing in todays market. It's not like I'm building the same set up for N/A as I am for a turbo. Again, once those high levels are reached, you're pulling and swapping parts to suite your goal(I would hope). I recently read something about a 9 second N/A Modular... That's nuts to me, but apparently it is doable. Is it streetable? Probably not so much. Bottom line: It really doesn't matter much what you're building unless you're ALL about serious.

Aight... Gotta go. The woman is taking me interwebz! She's actually leaving with it because we just moved and haven't got our U-VERSE installed yet... Not till Jan. 7. Sorry for any typos or outright mistakes... No time to double check...

ThisBlood147

I think you're romanticizing the Challenger a little too much here. I agree it's less abundant than the Mustang or Camaro, but let's not get carried away. I still see them on a regular basis (moreso every week I find)...so I think it's over-doing it a bit to refer to the Challenger as if it's some kind of American exotic.

Which was exactly my point. The crate motor is the way to go. But that doesn't make any headway in defending the new 392 Challenger and its performance/price point. Big difference between a 450+hp 2900 lb truck and a 450+hp 4000 lb car.

I'm not saying this isn't a great car. I think it was a good move for Dodge, in some ways (those that didn't involve putting an even heavier motor under the hood). I'm just lamenting the fact that you have to go to the top dog Challenger in order to have something that can compete with the mid level Mustang and Camaro.

onebaddakota

The 90s called, they want their cliche' back. You realize that most of that came from the 90s. Now if you have hard data on a national scale that you can show me, I'd like to see it. You speak anecdotally. I've never had a Dodge tranny give out in my truck or minivans. Neither has my father-in-law who drives his Chryslers into the ground. My GMs have been flawless as well. I just replaced the tranny on my 05 Excursion. Although I do love my Excursion so it was worth it. My point is no one of the big 3 can lay a claim to having the benchmark in reliability and quality. You have to pick and chose between models. This is why brand loyalty is well, dumb.(unless they are cutting you a check every week)
That's news to me since a local shop that does work for me builds them up and has been inside both and yep, they are identical, chief.
There's more than one, but it doesn't matter. I'm astonished at how fast they are running 11s and 10s with a STOCK transmission. But thanks for doing all that research for little old me, I'm flattered.
BTW, all those Fords, GMs, and Chryslers running those 8s and 9s are almost all using powerglides, turbo 400s/350s,C6/4s, or 727/904s. I kind of thought we were talking about late model overdrive transmissions.
With a modular yes, but not with an LSx block and not with a 6.1 block. Especially considering the fact that I will be running E85, oh, and thanks for the subsidy.

onebaddakota

You know I never intended to make this into a Chrysler vs Ford argument. Honestly, I probably agree with 80-90% of what you've said. It does strike a nerve with me when people make blanket statements about brands across the board. I have all three brands in my garage. There our things I love and hate about all of them.
I do love the fact that Ford didn't take a bailout. Moreover, I think they have really stepped up their quality in the last few years. That said, I can't say they our up to Toyota/Honda type reliability/quality yet. I hope they are, maybe they are. But you simply can't say it until you see the numbers come back from a large sampling size and after years of driving have been done.

DiscerningZ32

Aren't there NA Modular Fords in the 9's?
I believe there are several actually.

onebaddakota

I don't believe I ever was defending its performance/price standpoint. In fact, I said I felt it was a few thousand above where it should be. They made very few improvements on it other than stroking an existing block. The old price tag of $39000 should have probably gone up to $41000 and not much more-especially considering what the market has to offer.
I also feel the crate motor is overpriced. I can make much more power and do it for less with the 09 Eagle RT heads.

It'llrun

The sampling is in... 3 straight yrs Ford has been rated on par with Toyota and indeed, Honda. Idonno WHERE many of you have been, but you ain't been payin' attention to these stats, obviously. Ford sells far more than Honda so they aren't the big deal Toyota is.
Like I have access to simply get the numbers. I left Dodge in 2006... I sold the same JUNK then as I had always sold. Face it, Dodge DOESN'T make a very good product unless(and then only somewhat) it's a high end model. I don't need national data to make my point either... "The Big 3" only has 2 competitors and everyone knows it.

Lucky you... I had FOUR(4) of them in a single 1991 Dakota, which is the last Dodge I intend to own. It also had a plethora of brake issues(6sets frt, 2 rr) including rotors and drums and went through 2 $400 PCMs in 8yrs. 107,xxx miles... GONE!

GM has the best transmissions in the industry where pickups are concerned. 'spin dat way for yrs. Fords had troubles in that area till the TorqueShift(I think that's the name- I also think it's an Allison and GM/Ford don't wanna tell), mostly solenoids over the past several yrs. Even so, Dodge quality is NOT where the others are, period. Even if they've got a few great engines AND trannies... The build quality doesn't compete with GM or Ford.... yet. I like me a Cummins diesel, but that won't make me buy a Dodge when I can just as easily get a Silverado, Sierra, or Super Duty. I'll PASS on the great engine to get a product I trust to do the job better overall.

All that said, I'd LIKE to own a new Challenger SRT8... for my garage. I'd run it around on weekends or whatever. DD use though? Pass.

True, news to you or otherwise. They're not the same, though they do look the same. The general rebuilder may not ever know the difference. He need only look to see where it was built, however, to order the right parts.

I was merely pointing out that it has a power adder, as opposed to one of those 700+ hp N/A engines. 11's and 10's are hardly impressive at this point with the SS and GT...

Most of them are and most of that is for the sake of weight and simplicity. However, there are those in the 9's with factory units, so we're told. Of course, we're only told the Dodges are factory as well....

To each his own... I ain't building any of 'em, so it's fine with me. If I were, however, N/A wouldn't be my choice. I wanna win too much for that. Ultimately, you're not winning N/A. That's just a natural fact.

I may gain interest in E-85 when they finally start using algea to make it on a high scale. Until then, it's merely an alternative fuel to make my economy lower than with gasoline.

Pssst Just being CORNY doesn't mean the rest of us are subsidizing you!

Lethal Z

I find that ironic seeing as how you seem to be the only one here defending Chrysler. Just because you and your father in-law haven't had a problem is hardly a testament of Chryslers quality. I got a 2005 Dodge Ram (Hemi) right now with 37K on the clock and I am begining to have problems with the tranny going into gear right now, then theres the delay to fire when you attempt to start it. Then there is the occasional dying while sitting in traffic. Then theres the tail gate thats beginning to rust. All these problems on a truck thats just barely 6 years old is pathetic. There are more than a few people I know who have late model Chrysler products that have similar or completly different problems. Hard data? Where do you start? Look it up, unless you have had your head in the sand for the past 10 years its pretty common knowledge that Chrysler has had and still continues to have quality issues.

http://www.daimlerchryslervehicleproblems.com/

I'll be astonished when Chrysler can deliver a stock vehicle that doesn't fall apart before its payed off. Running 10's and 11's? How about stock drivetrains that last 100K miles.

onebaddakota

What data are you referring to? JD power? If so that needs to be taken with a grain of salt. JD uses 90 day satisfaction surveys and 3 year surveys. The brand rankings are based on averages for all the models. So quite naturally some models rank well with in a brand some don't. Secondly, these our number of problems per 100 vehicles. When you dissect that out per vehicle, it's not a huge gap between best and worst. Thirdly, what were the specific problems? Where these dome light malfunctions or transmission failures?
Don't get me wrong, JD is a nice award and a better marketing tool but it is not the be all to end all. Which leads me back to my main point: You cannot make blanket statements about brands. You have to pick and chose between models. There's good and not so good in all of them. It's called being a good consumer. Heck, even Chrysler has a few models that are rated decent.
Your bringing up your 20 year old Dodge as a good example? Really? Really? Good grief, your as bad as my father-in-law. That tranny is an A500 which is a 904 with an overdrive. As a stocker, a strong tranny it is not.
My 92 has the 518 which is a 727 with an overdrive. I retired it in 2004 after 10 years of drag racing abuse including numerous low 11 sec. passes. I couldn't kill it or the rear end. I did go through several motors spraying a lot of N2O however. The gen 2 dakotas (92-96) are very stout trucks and have good driveline reputations. Which again leads me back to my main point, brands and models evolve over time. Some good, some not so good. Blanket statements dumb.
It's funny that you brought up the point about Vipers having good quality. For the most part, Vipers our crap quality wise. The gen 1s were glorified kit cars. Subsequent years have gotten better, but still not as good as a vette.(which isn't exactly known for it's superb fit and finish either)
I hope you don't mind, but I'll take the word of the guy who rebuilds and modifies them for 4 digit HP over yours. So why do you think DC actually chose that tranny for their 2+ton performance cars? Do you think they just chose it and said put crap parts in it? Do you think maybe, just maybe, they did it because it was a stout piece with a proven track record that has once again proven itself in the LX cars.
Of course it has a power adder to run those numbers with that weight and that restrictive EFI system. I won't have those same restrictions. Never said 10s and 11s was impressive. I said the tranny holding up was impressive given the weight and power applied to it.
Is this the part where you tell me know a lot about drag racing? It's called class racing. You know NA class? Power adder class? Small block? Big Block? Bracket racing? You should stick to your brand
You keep trying to pull me into this Dodge vs Ford quality argument. That is not what I'm arguing about. My disagreement with you originated from you saying brand A is the best and brand B and C suck.
Oh and for the record, In my opinion, Ford has the best quality right now on average. There, you happy now?

DoggyB22

iTrader: (2)

Cost to much.... But looks a lot better IMO & the interior is very clean!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKcZaVH_x3E

DiscerningZ32

Lateral acceleration of .89 G?

Wtf dodge, wtf...

sw07gt

iTrader: (10)

So doesn't handle worth a ****, is more expensive, heavier, more powerful yet still slower than its competitors. I'll take a new 5.0 please, fully optioned and still save 5-6k.

It'llrun

Not just JD. There are many companies out there who take surveys and follow ups, keep tabs on this or that. Bottom line: I've seen too many newer Dodge products in for warranty work. Did you know that if you got a new HEMI powered pickup (for awhile, at least) and didn't get your oil changed when it was required, WHEN(not if) your engine blew up, Dodge wouldn't honor the warranty? At one point around April of 2006, I saw 6 of these at once, awaiting repair. That's not just a poor product, but further, poor customer care/service quality. But alas, those days are behind me.
And they are?

Low 11's... with nitrous? Okay then. I ain't sayin' it's bad, but my brothers 90 Ranger did that as a DD. Yeah, it was modified.

Torqueflite... 727/904(and 909).. A500, introduced in 1988, blah blah blah... I get it. Did I mention I used to work for Dodge? maybe not... The 3spds were great, incidentally. I've forgotten plenty about all this and, oddly, didn't much care to recall any of it.

The only blanket statement I offered is that Dodge quality isn't up to GM and Ford. I haven't changed my mind.
1st you complain about my mention of my 91 Dakota, then you add a comment about the poor quality of the 1st gen Viper... When was that made again? As for GM's flagship, it's been widely considered very good in fit and finish for quite some time now. Then again, it may be difficult for most of us to notice anything wrong with a car THAT stunning!

Okay, fine with me. The guys over on challengerforums say it's built in Kokomo, In. and that some parts come from MB, but the case is built and assembly done at ITP1 while MB versions are done at ITP2. Their claim is that MB versions have tighter tolerances, probably built in by MB techs.

The American plant they're built in now (for North American production) was started in 2001 and completed in 2003.

Talk about your oxy morons in life... They DID build a "2+ ton performance" car, right? If THAT meets your idea of ultimate intelligence, I truly am at a loss for words. How much does your pick up weigh again? See... Not even YOU want to build a 4,000 lb "performance" vehicle. Why is it smart for Dodge to do it?

There are 2 short answers though. #1, it wasn't a great idea to start. #2, they have a contract for the transmission. What better way than to actually use it as well? I'm not saying it's a bad trans at all, but I still say the jury is out on whether or not it's better than the rest.

Wait... 3rd answer... Maybe they're using it because MB won't allow them to use the 7spd!

You're trying to write my words for me... When/where did I make any claim that it wasn't a good transmission? When/where did I say it had crap parts in it? Since its intro(in what, 1995?), it's been a solid unit. I don't believe many folks were trying to use it for a 9 second heavyweight, however.

Oh... okay then. It's okay for the heavy stuff, just not for the really quick stuff... The point you still missed is, you made the claim that Modular engines need a power adder to make power... Evidently it doesn't hurt a Dodge much either.

Nah. Surely you already know what it's like to run 8's or quicker.

I thought this was covered already... Class racing. Yeah, we've all been over this many times. Are you class racing a new Dodge Challenger? Me neither. I prefer heads up. Class racing is too expensive, which is kinda hard to put into perspective against heads up, but at least you won't have to spend on specific items for a specific class, just to be legal. Bracket racing is cool I 'spose, if ya wanna race a tree.

Yeah, because whatever brand that is, it has EVERYTHING to do with class racing... I never tried to pull you into it. You jumped in head long without a single request from me.

Yeah, only I never said that... or anything close to that, period. Don't read between the lines... There's nothing there.

Welcome to reality... right now.

What? You don't LIKE 1979 Mustang capabilities? Seriously, .89 is no standout in todays pony car wars, to say the least.