Camaro outselling Mustang again
05-05-2011, 12:40 PM
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Which is better for a specific person simply boils down to personal choices, all based in the predetermined use of any product along with the known features or lack thereof and the price to be paid for said purchase. Which is better in specific testing, however, is not subjective because for those tests, there are specific guidelines set ahead of time. In the case of performance from vehicles, the only thing added in mental notes would be longevity and costs over time, set or not set.
Since the Camaro is selling better, it is the better car to most car buyers? That's simply absurd. As I said before, if that's the case, the Cruze is GM's very best car... NOBODY in their right mind would make that claim with conviction. Instead, they would surely laugh at the mere idea.
Comparing as you have here is useless in terms of deciding which is better. The Mustang has a slight edge in performance... in nearly every performance category. I've read test after test "And the winner is... Mustang" in essentially 100% of them. They even include "subjective" thoughts. Unlike you, however, they consider the cost, the performance, the options, the economy, the usefullness in its category and the overall typical use for these cars. For you, it's about sales... Ridiculous though it sounds, that's how you've determined... By letting OTHERS determine for you. Way to think it through...
For people looking at these cars in terms of performance, they look at (and for) some things you've mentioned, like vehicle weight. That doesn't matter to you, apparently... You know the Mustang weighs less(by 2-3 hundred pounds)... For you though, that's no big deal because the Camaro makes some 14 more hp... I'll clue you in on something... TORQUE is what matters in drag racing, and the Camaro has an even bigger torque advantage... Maybe argue that in the future.
If you can make the Camaro lighter than a Mustang can be made, you're all set... Well, that is if you can also make it connect to the track better. If buying for drag racing purposes, you're just going to be at a terrible disadvantage with the current Camaro SS as compared to any number of Mustang models available. Can you buy a more powerful Camaro overall? No. Can you buy a lighter Camaro? No. Can you buy a Camaro with more torque? No. Can you buy a Camaro with better gearing? No. Can you buy a Camaro with a solid rear axle? No... Are you planning to drag race? I guess not, or you don't mind losing because... The Camaro SELLS better! Mustang buyers(and wannabe buyers alike) offered the very same argument for several years, up to and including the "but I can modify for less" portion. They, too, were laughed at for their argument... true and correct or not. Thanks in part to lighter weight, the car enjoys an advantage today.
Sales numbers are fine... If you base your purchase on just that, however, you'll not likely ever be in the best position when it's time to drag race. Do what you want... I don't care. The point I'm making is simply that determining which car is better based solely on sales won't leave you with much when you're picking up a time slip. You can smile and tell the guy at the booth, "Hey... This car is selling like HOTCAKES!" He'll surely remind you what a winner you are...
Since the Camaro is selling better, it is the better car to most car buyers? That's simply absurd. As I said before, if that's the case, the Cruze is GM's very best car... NOBODY in their right mind would make that claim with conviction. Instead, they would surely laugh at the mere idea.
Comparing as you have here is useless in terms of deciding which is better. The Mustang has a slight edge in performance... in nearly every performance category. I've read test after test "And the winner is... Mustang" in essentially 100% of them. They even include "subjective" thoughts. Unlike you, however, they consider the cost, the performance, the options, the economy, the usefullness in its category and the overall typical use for these cars. For you, it's about sales... Ridiculous though it sounds, that's how you've determined... By letting OTHERS determine for you. Way to think it through...
For people looking at these cars in terms of performance, they look at (and for) some things you've mentioned, like vehicle weight. That doesn't matter to you, apparently... You know the Mustang weighs less(by 2-3 hundred pounds)... For you though, that's no big deal because the Camaro makes some 14 more hp... I'll clue you in on something... TORQUE is what matters in drag racing, and the Camaro has an even bigger torque advantage... Maybe argue that in the future.
If you can make the Camaro lighter than a Mustang can be made, you're all set... Well, that is if you can also make it connect to the track better. If buying for drag racing purposes, you're just going to be at a terrible disadvantage with the current Camaro SS as compared to any number of Mustang models available. Can you buy a more powerful Camaro overall? No. Can you buy a lighter Camaro? No. Can you buy a Camaro with more torque? No. Can you buy a Camaro with better gearing? No. Can you buy a Camaro with a solid rear axle? No... Are you planning to drag race? I guess not, or you don't mind losing because... The Camaro SELLS better! Mustang buyers(and wannabe buyers alike) offered the very same argument for several years, up to and including the "but I can modify for less" portion. They, too, were laughed at for their argument... true and correct or not. Thanks in part to lighter weight, the car enjoys an advantage today.
Sales numbers are fine... If you base your purchase on just that, however, you'll not likely ever be in the best position when it's time to drag race. Do what you want... I don't care. The point I'm making is simply that determining which car is better based solely on sales won't leave you with much when you're picking up a time slip. You can smile and tell the guy at the booth, "Hey... This car is selling like HOTCAKES!" He'll surely remind you what a winner you are...
This was a thread about the Camaro out-selling the Mustang before you went on a tangent about performance. Truth be told, most people dont purchase their cars and take them to the dragstrip. You also stated if buying the Camaro for drag racing purposes, the Camaro is at a terrible disadvantage as compared to "ANY" number of Mustang models availible.When two cars are so closely matched as the Camaro SS and Mustang GT, the performance results in so and so's magazine article goes out the window! These are professional drivers, so in the real world...it is going to come down to WHO is the better driver? To add on to that, who keeps their vehicle stock when purchasing a car for drag racing purposes? The LS series engines have a large aftermarket compared to the 5.0 Coyote, so how much of a disadvantage is it?
It is absurd to buy a car based on sales! Personally, I prefer the Camaro not based on sales, but because I prefer the looks, proven and reliable powertrain combo,IRS, and so sue me! I am a bit of a Camaro enthusiast! Finally, since you want to magazine race...the Camaro has not lost in nearly every performance category. In the CARANDDRIVER article the Camaro was faster than the 5.0 from 0-60,1/4 mile,and top speed! With that said...the Mustang is lighter and because of that has a better HP/WT ratio. I will excuse your complete ignorance on other things, and agree with you that the Mustang does have a performance advantage though.
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-07-2011 at 11:27 AM.
05-05-2011, 02:05 PM
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I assume you're asking about V8s only (being that this is a performance oriented board and the V8 being what most of us would likely get)?
In manual trans form, the Camaro SS is rated at 14hp more than the Mustang GT.
In automatic form the SS is actually rated less by 12hp.
In manual trans form, the Camaro SS is rated at 14hp more than the Mustang GT.
In automatic form the SS is actually rated less by 12hp.
05-05-2011, 02:23 PM
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I'll predicate this by saying, you're being too serious, so I'm going to be a tad comical ... just for my enjoyment. 
No you don't... You need it from SOMEONE though, so I decided to try and help. 
HP is a derivative of torque. Without torque, you'll need an actual horse for hp. Well, any animal may do, but most will not produce a hp... HP isn't just the amount of work done over a distance/period of time... There's a specific formula... go look it up.
That's a really cute theory, but you're entitled... You'll have to be more specific to reach the correct answer in your scenario. Over a longer distance, more hp helps. In initial movement, it's all about torque. Another issue you apparently didn't consider is the range of said power or torque... But hey, you're the expert theorist here...
Go back and take a look at what was actually said, and by whom, sparky.
I said as much near the beginning, thanks for paying no attention whilst you tell me what I did here... 
I did and it is correct, barring no exceptions. I need to explain, obviously, since "ANY" stuck out with you even though "number of models" should've been just as important... I like this, "So you think you're smart" stuff... 
"Any number of Mustang models available" draws ones attention to the various higher end versions. Mustang GT, BOSS 302, GT500, etc. I didn't think I needed to spell them all out, but you've made it clear you need some added help.
Another theory? Don't look now, but... The 2011 Mustang GT has already been into the 8's... It took less than 6mo. The Camaro SS was out about 1yr sooner and didn't run 8's by the time the Mustang did, AND that specific Lingenfelter car(which I only think has run 8's) had something on the order of 100k into it... Who leaves 'em stock? Who cares!
In a drag race, you can't expect to keep up with a car that has a solid rear axle in one that weighs more and has IRS without 1st doing SEVERAL modifications, in most cases... worldwide.
Again, not really paying attention... I'm the one who said allowing others to choose for you is a bad idea. I also said that anyone buying their car based on looks is essentially in with the normal crowd because most people don't buy based stictly on performance, or even potential.
In the REAL WORLD, the Mustang has proven quicker more often than not AND in actual track racing, it consistently beats the SS... I'm not just basing my comments on magazine writeups, but also what I read in places like here and in videos I've seen of thse cars on track. Btw, C&D had matching times too, when they weren't using the CS model, but instead had a standard GT with the Brembo brakes and summer tires. The quickest stock 2011's we've seen have generally been automatics, with 3.15 rear gearing, btw. I haven't seen any magazine review of an automatic.
SS wins in top speed(higher limiter) as I've said at least 5 times in the past. In fact, I've stressed that fact purposely. It's also likely to stop shorter than a GT without Brembos. Typically, the Mustang wins in any case with Brembos and that's not just in a slalom or skidpad, but on the track. Most Mustang GT's are not California Specials and are therefore, probably not quite as slow as the slowest version.
You're a Camaro fan... GREAT! I'm seriously good with that. However, just being a fan doesn't warrant trash-mouthing the competitiom which, in this case, you clearly know almost nothing about overall. I don't own or plan to own either model... My mind is not clouded with "what I like" to determine which performs better. My approach is far different than yours... I simply prefer the ZO6... That's just me.
No you don't... You need it from SOMEONE though, so I decided to try and help.
Secondly,you are incorrect. HP is very important because it is the amount of work over a distance/period of time.
HP isn't just the amount of work done over a distance/period of time... There's a specific formula... go look it up.
Theoretically, if you take two identical cars with the exception that one has more HP and the other has more TQ. The car with more HP is going to get from point A to point B faster. For example, take a car with a 440hp 340tq engine and replace it out with a diesel engine producing 440tq and 340hp, the car with 440 hp is going to reach the 1320 faster. I am not taking nothing away from TQ, it is the stump pulling,wheel stand launching, and axle twisting force that propels the car. HP is in fact just measurement from TQ at a specific RPM,but the car with the more efficient HP curve is going to win the race. You can create more force with a sledge hammer,but a jackhammer can do more work!
This was a thread about the Camaro out-selling the Mustang before you went on a tangent about performance.
Truth be told, most people dont purchase their cars and take them to the dragstrip.
You also stated if buying the Camaro for drag racing purposes, the Camaro is at a terrible disadvantage as compared to "ANY" number of Mustang models availible.
"Any number of Mustang models available" draws ones attention to the various higher end versions. Mustang GT, BOSS 302, GT500, etc. I didn't think I needed to spell them all out, but you've made it clear you need some added help.
When two cars are so closely matched as the Camaro SS and Mustang GT, the performance results in so and so's magazine article goes out the window! These are professional drivers, so in the real world...it is going to come down to WHO is the better driver? To add on to that, who keeps their vehicle stock when purchasing a car for drag racing purposes? The LS series engines have a large aftermarket compared to the 5.0 Coyote, so how much of a disadvantage is it?
In a drag race, you can't expect to keep up with a car that has a solid rear axle in one that weighs more and has IRS without 1st doing SEVERAL modifications, in most cases... worldwide.
It is absurd to buy a car based on sales! Personally, I prefer the Camaro not based on sales, but because I prefer the looks, proven and reliable powertrain combo,IRS, and so sue me!
I am a bit of a Camaro enthusiast! Finally, since you want to magazine race...the Camaro has not lost in nearly every performance category. In the CARANDDRIVER article the Camaro was faster than the 5.0 from 0-60,1/4 mile,and top speed! With that said...the Mustang is lighter and because of that has a better HP/WT ratio. I will excuse your complete ignorance on other things, and agree with you that the Mustang does have a performance advantage though.
SS wins in top speed(higher limiter) as I've said at least 5 times in the past. In fact, I've stressed that fact purposely. It's also likely to stop shorter than a GT without Brembos. Typically, the Mustang wins in any case with Brembos and that's not just in a slalom or skidpad, but on the track. Most Mustang GT's are not California Specials and are therefore, probably not quite as slow as the slowest version.
You're a Camaro fan... GREAT! I'm seriously good with that. However, just being a fan doesn't warrant trash-mouthing the competitiom which, in this case, you clearly know almost nothing about overall. I don't own or plan to own either model... My mind is not clouded with "what I like" to determine which performs better. My approach is far different than yours... I simply prefer the ZO6... That's just me.
05-05-2011, 04:37 PM
#64
You're like a dim bulb on a sunny afternoon... Notice anything missing??? As I said... Laughing at your ignorance! 
Maybe work on trying to not be so serious... It could help calm you and maybe drop your blood pressure and stuff... Maybe go pet a dog or car...
Yeah, I wrote it as I meant it... because some people need to realize "lighten up" doesn't just mean go on a diet.
are you clever enough to add up sales numbers?
camaro Wins again homo.
05-05-2011, 04:40 PM
#65
[QUOTE=lovescamaros28;14875067]First of all, I dont need any education on HP and TQ. Secondly,you are incorrect. HP is very important because it is the amount of work over a distance/period of time. Theoretically, if you take two identical cars with the exception that one has more HP and the other has more TQ. The car with more HP is going to get from point A to point B faster. For example, take a car with a 440hp 340tq engine and replace it out with a diesel engine producing 440tq and 340hp, the car with 440 hp is going to reach the 1320 faster. I am not taking nothing away from TQ, it is the stump pulling,wheel stand launching, and axle twisting force that propels the car. HP is in fact just measurement from TQ at a specific RPM,but the car with the more efficient HP curve is going to win the race. You can create more force with a sledge hammer,but a jackhammer can do more work!
This was a thread about the Camaro out-selling the Mustang before you went on a tangent about performance.
^^^^^^^ this right here.
all he does is YAK YAK YAK.
This was a thread about the Camaro out-selling the Mustang before you went on a tangent about performance.
^^^^^^^ this right here.
all he does is YAK YAK YAK.
05-05-2011, 05:28 PM
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Which car is better is subjective,and based completely off personal opinion. Since the Camaro is selling better...to most car buyers the Camaro is better. Everyone knows the Mustang has a very slight edge in performance. That is because it is lighter,but as everyone knows produces less brake horsepower/torque.
05-05-2011, 08:54 PM
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Agreed 100%. A lot of people don't compare the two, they are die hard Camaro or Mustang fans. For those that do, there's nothing the Camaro has in it's favor.
05-06-2011, 12:37 AM
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Would either of you care to go back and read posts #1 through #40 and get back to me about when this was brought up, and by whom? It was NOT me, though you both absurdly claim it was.Specifically, look at post 5 and then post 10... If you still conclude it was me, you're not very intelligent. If you merely continue to claim it was me, you're just lying. I don't think I mentioned performance until post 40... That's about 35 posts after the 1st time I read of it in this thread. Each of you mentioned power, etc. before I did... Still, you each foolishly claim it was me turning the conversation around... Having trouble remembering your own words, or what?
05-06-2011, 04:36 AM
#70
Far be it from me to suggest either of you guys to pay attention... Would either of you care to go back and read posts #1 through #40 and get back to me about when this was brought up, and by whom? It was NOT me, though you both absurdly claim it was.
Specifically, look at post 5 and then post 10... If you still conclude it was me, you're not very intelligent. If you merely continue to claim it was me, you're just lying. I don't think I mentioned performance until post 40... That's about 35 posts after the 1st time I read of it in this thread. Each of you mentioned power, etc. before I did... Still, you each foolishly claim it was me turning the conversation around... Having trouble remembering your own words, or what?
Would either of you care to go back and read posts #1 through #40 and get back to me about when this was brought up, and by whom? It was NOT me, though you both absurdly claim it was.Specifically, look at post 5 and then post 10... If you still conclude it was me, you're not very intelligent. If you merely continue to claim it was me, you're just lying. I don't think I mentioned performance until post 40... That's about 35 posts after the 1st time I read of it in this thread. Each of you mentioned power, etc. before I did... Still, you each foolishly claim it was me turning the conversation around... Having trouble remembering your own words, or what?
try staying on the subject instead of over stating everything.
05-06-2011, 07:48 AM
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I'll predicate this by saying, you're being too serious, so I'm going to be a tad comical ... just for my enjoyment. No you don't... You need it from SOMEONE though, so I decided to try and help.
HP is a derivative of torque. Without torque, you'll need an actual horse for hp. Well, any animal may do, but most will not produce a hp... HP isn't just the amount of work done over a distance/period of time... There's a specific formula... go look it up.
That's a really cute theory, but you're entitled... You'll have to be more specific to reach the correct answer in your scenario. Over a longer distance, more hp helps. In initial movement, it's all about torque. Another issue you apparently didn't consider is the range of said power or torque... But hey, you're the expert theorist here...
SS wins in top speed(higher limiter) as I've said at least 5 times in the past. In fact, I've stressed that fact purposely. It's also likely to stop shorter than a GT without Brembos. Typically, the Mustang wins in any case with Brembos and that's not just in a slalom or skidpad, but on the track. Most Mustang GT's are not California Specials and are therefore, probably not quite as slow as the slowest version.
You're a Camaro fan... GREAT! I'm seriously good with that. However, just being a fan doesn't warrant trash-mouthing the competitiom which, in this case, you clearly know almost nothing about overall. I don't own or plan to own either model... My mind is not clouded with "what I like" to determine which performs better. My approach is far different than yours... I simply prefer the ZO6... That's just me.
No you don't... You need it from SOMEONE though, so I decided to try and help. HP is a derivative of torque. Without torque, you'll need an actual horse for hp. Well, any animal may do, but most will not produce a hp...
HP isn't just the amount of work done over a distance/period of time... There's a specific formula... go look it up.That's a really cute theory, but you're entitled... You'll have to be more specific to reach the correct answer in your scenario. Over a longer distance, more hp helps. In initial movement, it's all about torque. Another issue you apparently didn't consider is the range of said power or torque... But hey, you're the expert theorist here...
SS wins in top speed(higher limiter) as I've said at least 5 times in the past. In fact, I've stressed that fact purposely. It's also likely to stop shorter than a GT without Brembos. Typically, the Mustang wins in any case with Brembos and that's not just in a slalom or skidpad, but on the track. Most Mustang GT's are not California Specials and are therefore, probably not quite as slow as the slowest version.
You're a Camaro fan... GREAT! I'm seriously good with that. However, just being a fan doesn't warrant trash-mouthing the competitiom which, in this case, you clearly know almost nothing about overall. I don't own or plan to own either model... My mind is not clouded with "what I like" to determine which performs better. My approach is far different than yours... I simply prefer the ZO6... That's just me.
Let me make something clear. You do the very same thing you accuse others of not doing. You dont pay attention. I clearly stated that the car with the more efficient HP curve is going to win in the 1/4 mile. I was not aware that I was required to break it down barney style for you. BROAD POWER CURVE=GOOD!
I know the formula TQXRPM/5252=HP already, so once again...I dont need your help lol. You were clearly denoting that TQ numbers were more important than HP, as a feeble attempt to correct me using HP to justify comparison between two cars. I took it upon myself, to teach you something. The most accurate way to find your 1/4 mile ET is obivously running your vehicle down the track, but if you want a good ballpark figure then you can use ET= Weight / HP^.333x5.825. On a racetrack such as Laguna Seca,you are constantly on and off the accelerator, so TQ is going to be extremely important. When drag racing, the average HP that your engine produces throughout its power curve in addition to taking into account gearing,and weight you will have a very close estimate of what your 1/4 ET will be.
As far as the California Special is concerned. It is basically an appearance package and has no significance in HP/TQ to claim it is a step up in any way.
Since you are a Z06 guy, I must know do you prefer the LS engines or the 5.0?
Last edited by lovescamaros28; 05-06-2011 at 08:27 AM.
05-06-2011, 12:27 PM
#72
How many dynos have been done on the same day with both cars? I don't think I've seen any where they were done same day/dyno, but most of the Mustang dynos seem to be atleast the same as the SS dynos. Either way, they are very close for power and speed. The much better power band of the LS3 makes up for the weight on the strip, but I think peak numbers are pretty much the same with both engines.
05-06-2011, 12:47 PM
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I know; I wasn't questioning what you posted, I was just wondering if anyone had some back to back sheets. Kind of like how the LS1 was rated at 305hp vs 320hp(?) for the Mustang Cobra, yet the LS1 would put down 30-40hp more on a dyno (Not saying the 5.0/LS3 is like that, but it would be nice to see them tested back to back).
(Not saying the 5.0/LS3 is like that, but it would be nice to see them tested back to back).
05-06-2011, 03:40 PM
#74
Let me make something clear. You do the very same thing you accuse others of not doing. You dont pay attention. I clearly stated that the car with the more efficient HP curve is going to win in the 1/4 mile. I was not aware that I was required to break it down barney style for you. BROAD POWER CURVE=GOOD!
I know the formula TQXRPM/5252=HP already, so once again...I dont need your help lol. You were clearly denoting that TQ numbers were more important than HP, as a feeble attempt to correct me using HP to justify comparison between two cars. I took it upon myself, to teach you something. The most accurate way to find your 1/4 mile ET is obivously running your vehicle down the track, but if you want a good ballpark figure then you can use ET= Weight / HP^.333x5.825. On a racetrack such as Laguna Seca,you are constantly on and off the accelerator, so TQ is going to be extremely important. When drag racing, the average HP that your engine produces throughout its power curve in addition to taking into account gearing,and weight you will have a very close estimate of what your 1/4 ET will be.
As far as the California Special is concerned. It is basically an appearance package and has no significance in HP/TQ to claim it is a step up in any way.
Since you are a Z06 guy, I must know do you prefer the LS engines or the 5.0?
I know the formula TQXRPM/5252=HP already, so once again...I dont need your help lol. You were clearly denoting that TQ numbers were more important than HP, as a feeble attempt to correct me using HP to justify comparison between two cars. I took it upon myself, to teach you something. The most accurate way to find your 1/4 mile ET is obivously running your vehicle down the track, but if you want a good ballpark figure then you can use ET= Weight / HP^.333x5.825. On a racetrack such as Laguna Seca,you are constantly on and off the accelerator, so TQ is going to be extremely important. When drag racing, the average HP that your engine produces throughout its power curve in addition to taking into account gearing,and weight you will have a very close estimate of what your 1/4 ET will be.
As far as the California Special is concerned. It is basically an appearance package and has no significance in HP/TQ to claim it is a step up in any way.
Since you are a Z06 guy, I must know do you prefer the LS engines or the 5.0?
you can keep trying but he wont listen lol.
05-06-2011, 05:22 PM
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Actually yes, very much so. Everyone has preferences, and numbers aren't everything... but twisting numbers or figures to try and justify an obviously-subjective stance is ridiculous. Not saying that is what you are doing in this instance, but that has started quite a few of the "e-fights" that plague this forum.
05-06-2011, 05:30 PM
#76
Actually yes, very much so. Everyone has preferences, and numbers aren't everything... but twisting numbers or figures to try and justify an obviously-subjective stance is ridiculous. Not saying that is what you are doing in this instance, but that has started quite a few of the "e-fights" that plague this forum.
you have to expect a majority to like GM products on this site. thats never going to change.
05-06-2011, 05:38 PM
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i dont think youre objective at all and take shots at 5th gens every chance you get. if you dont like them fine but just admit it and realize others like it over competitors vehicles for their own reasons.
you have to expect a majority to like GM products on this site. thats never going to change.
you have to expect a majority to like GM products on this site. thats never going to change.
05-06-2011, 05:59 PM
#78
You can think what you like, no skin off my ***. And I "take shots" at the 5th gen Camaro (as do many other members on this site) because it is not the type of car that I enjoy driving. I prefer lighter, more nimble cars. Skidpad and slalom numbers are cool and all, but the way a car feels is just as important. And I like plenty of GM products, I'm just not blind enough to like all of them.
thats fine. but others do like it and shouldnt have to explain or justify why. youve made your point plenty of times and theres really no need to constantly drag it out is there?
for instance, some feel when its not even remotely involved in a discussion they cant resist starting **** just to start an argument.
its pointless and stupid and proves and changes nothing.
05-06-2011, 06:42 PM
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You can think what you like, no skin off my ***. And I "take shots" at the 5th gen Camaro (as do many other members on this site) because it is not the type of car that I enjoy driving. I prefer lighter, more nimble cars. Skidpad and slalom numbers are cool and all, but the way a car feels is just as important. And I like plenty of GM products, I'm just not blind enough to like all of them.
You are entitled to your opinion. However, the majority of the public disagrees with you. Whether you like it or not, the 5th Gen Camaro is a hot seller compared to the 1998-2002 F-bodies which were outsold by the Mustang with Firebird and Camaro sales combined!