Wnts2Go10O

iTrader: (12)

companies rise and fall based on the merits of the products and services they provide. on top of that, those who bought into the company take precedent over those who havent by contract. our entire economic system was built on that. well, that is unless obama is in charge.

a majority of the 787 billion dollar stimulus law went largely to european companies and banks. so far, the US govt (taxpayers) is out billions because of gm. chrysler not doing much better.

the moral of the story? keynesian economics is a failed and flat wrong theory. FDR proved it and now obama is proving it.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Agreed.

But now, exactly which 'economic theories' do work? If you've got it all figured out I'd really like to know because if any of the practices utilized up until this point had actually worked so much better 1) why would anyone have tried something different/strayed from it? And 2) How did things get so bad after following that 'perfect' path or 'unflawed' system if it actually worked so well/properly in the first place?

It'llrun

Capitalism and the "free market" work(see China). The only reason they're not working for America now is because they've been hi-jacked and instead of allowing failure to take place where failure actually is, our government has decided it's more intelligent than the buying public about that which the buying public wants to ... buy... With that, they FORCED us to pay for those entities they want to succeed. Now our economy is trying to recover, but "we, the people" who make up that economy are half-afraid to make big money purchases, being convinced "uncle sam" will steal away whatever it can, of ours.

Not everyone gets rich with a free market, but far fewer stay poor.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

The whole tax code is FULL of welfare for lots of different groups. That's why it's so full of subsidies and loopholes. If a company doesn't have to pay $5,000 in taxes because of a loophole they lobbied to have put in, that's the same thing as the Treasury cutting them a check for $5,000. Some or the biggest corporations like GE pay nothing in taxes and actually get a refund! The whole tax code was written by special interests with armies of lobbyists and lawyers.

That's American state-run capitalism for you, but this has been happening for a long time, it isn't something Obama invented. Bush basically socialized the entire banking system, but it's strange I haven't heard many people referring to "Government Sachs."

Umm... the same place the U.S. government gets its money to run the health care system.

As far as Japan's economy is going, I would imagine they're still in the process of rebuilding. I do know they're one of the largest holders of U.S. debt, owning nearly as much as China.

All throughout history the government has had a substantial role in intervening in the economy, granting monopolies and so on. I know a lot of people have been told that up until Obama, we were good capitalists, and now he's made us into the Soviet Union. Well you can think that if you'd like, but it's not historically true. We've always had a state-run economy pretty much right from the start.

GM and Chrysler will more than pay back the bailout money in the form of a healthy auto industry that employs a lot of people. It's the same principle as giving tax breaks to companies looking to build plants. We spend money/give tax breaks (same thing fiscally) to create jobs and increase revenue down the road.

Every U.S. administration in modern history believed in Keynesian economics, Reagan being one of the biggest ones. But you're right that Keynesianism is a failure, I believe we need to look more towards the current German model, they have one of the strongest economies in the world.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

America never had a free market. Right from the beginning we rejected free trade and enacted protectionist policies. This is a myth that America was built on free markets. The British had a free market system that we rejected in favor of economic nationalism.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

............. ^ this ^

It'llrun

I think they changed the history books since I was in skrewel...

It'llrun

WOW! My gals mom is directly from there and she claims it's outright socialism... She also says America should follow suit and become socialist. She thinks it will make her life easier. I told her we're already there, but it doesn't look like it since America is so much larger than Germany. I think she can go back home. She's better at German anyway.

America still has the strongest economy in the world. Why step backward to "one of' instead of maintaining "the?" Just curious....

Latch

iTrader: (8)

Nah, they're still full of the same propaganda. My rule of thumb is I don't believe a word the government tells me.

She must not know what socialism is then. German businesses are run by private owners, not the workers. Yes the unions wield a significant amount of power, but industries are still based on wage labor and private ownership of the means of production.

America has the strongest economy but that doesn't necessarily translate into high standards of living. Just look at China, they have the second strongest economy but the average workers live like slaves. Look at Germany though - their auto workers make TWICE as much as U.S. auto workers and German car companies sold twice as many cars as we did in 2010.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic...twice-as-much/

It'llrun

When I went, the government didn't actually write them... Guess things have changed.

I may seem crazy to say this, but I honestly believe an actual German citizen knows more about Germany than we Americans. No schooling required.

For me, it's not about "a fair wage for everyone" because... well, not everyone works the same. Most people aren't worth top dollar and never will be. I think unionization is a farce in America anymore, used only as a tool to take, not to give.

China will surpass America soon, at these rates. Their standard of living goes up all the time. Just 20yrs ago(maybe even 10 or less), most Chinese people had no realistic ideas they'd ever own a car. Today, they buy more than Americans... for example.

Just because a German auto worker makes roughly double what the American auto worker makes, doesn't provide adequate reason for American businesses to make like their German counterpart by doubling pay. The biggest difference which makes a difference is the simple reality, America has roughly 4 times the people and therefore requires more "spreading of the wealth" than does Germany. What may work great for them may not work at all for us.

If they build more vehicles, by roughly twice the amount, using a smaller labor force... They deserve more pay. I see no problem with that, but in no way do I think our labor force should have a pay increase because people earn more in some other country. We don't "deserve" just because we breathe or work. We "deserve" when we earn.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

The books are published by private companies contracted by the government.

Okay until she explains to you how private ownership, management control, and wage labor is the same thing as collective ownership and worker control then it's still not socialism. I guess in Germany they have completely distorted the term socialism just like we have in this country. They must have forgotten that East Germany collapsed and it was West Germany that prevailed... you know when the Berlin Wall came down... oh never mind.

Well who decides what's a fair wage, your boss? If he could, your boss would pay you nothing. In fact that's how work was done all throughout history... it was called serfdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serfdom

The reason why have weekends is unions. The reason we have 40 hour work weeks is unions. The reason we have health care benefits is unions. The reason we have overtime is unions. The reason we have safety standards is unions. And so on and so on. If it weren't for unions we would still be working in conditions like the employees at the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory when 146 workers died in a fire because management would lock the doors.

The standards are going up for some, and not others. The average worker in manufacturing still works in sweatshop conditions. Foxconn's factory in China that makes Apple products has recently been investigated after 7 workers committed suicide.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...es-humiliation

The American worker is the most productive in the world.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C293...5556%2C00.html

America is also the richest country on Earth. Something's not adding up, we have the most money, and the best workers... why aren't we getting the highest pay? I think all you have to do is look at one figure to see why:

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

Wouldn't make a huge difference.

Let's assume avaerage worker at Company A makes $50,000

Use the German CEO pay $600,000

USA CEO Pay = $23,750,000

23,750,000 - 600,000 = $23,150,000

Assume 15,000 workers at a major corporation (Auto are closer to 30,000 i think)

23,150,000/15,000 = $1,543.33 per worker *.7 (taxes, healthcare, etc) = $1,080.33/24 = $45.01 per pay period.

Nice, but not going to shake the pillars of economics.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

Then factor in all the other bureaucrats in upper management that make off like bandits, and the massive profits that get divided up among the shareholders rather than the workers. Then we'll see some of that wealth "trickle down."

It'llrun

I get it... you want America to become a totally socialist country.

It's funny though, that you'd argue against a German person, probably never having even visited, let alone lived in Germany yourself, and be completely fooled into thinking you've got it right and they're wrong... Love it!

Sprechen sie deutsch? If so, please use that to explain, as American English is still a bit rough on her. I'm sure she's simply misunderstood for her entire life, as have about 80,000,000 other German citizens...

Had to separate this nonsense from the rest, just because it made me laugh...

First off, we had weekends AND overtime AND healthcare benefits long before the 1st union ever took hold anywhere in the world. Saturday and Sunday have been clearly marked on calenders for thousands of years... We've had doctors and benefited from their care for ages whereas our 1st union is but roughly 140yrs old. Americans typically worked much longer and therefore, got many overtime hours well before anyone made a union... They didn't get paid more, but they worked!

Now then, I've said many times, much to the chagrin of several younger union supporters... Unions DID have their place and time in America. Today, however, they are a terrible organization in nearly every work related form. Now that we HAVE employer provided healthcare(which is no big deal, thanks to Obummer and company), we don't need unions for it ever again. Now that it's LAW to be paid OT, we don't need any union thug to enforce a rule. Now that most Americans are back to working weekends, it doesn't matter that most folks ever had them off.

The problem unions created is simple... They BEG TOO MUCH and with that, someone ELSE has to pay, but NEVER the union... That's crap and it's well beyond time for Americans to understand... Nothing is free, boneheads! No matter what the dummy at the union meeting says, someone pays for all your freebies! Union members typically just don't care about that, just as long as they aren't the poor schmuck footing the bill. A little history, since most union supporters have no clue:

In 1913, the U.S. government established the Department of Labor, specifically to oversee things like fair wages. This is the act that gave workers rights. Unions played NO active role.

In 1914, non-violent strikes were legalized in America.

In 1935, the Wagner Act affirmed the rights of workers to unionize and forced employers to participate in collective bargaining.

In 1937, the UAW reached agreement with GM.

1938, Fair Labor Standards Act guarantees minimum wage, without union intervention.

1959, Landrum-Griffin Act passes, in direct effort to curb union corruption.

One other thing on unions. We've known unions to promote socialism since 1905... Why do union members wonder about their memberships falling off?? Oh yeah... not helping overall.

Finally, anyone who needs a union to avoid working for free is an idiot who doesn't deserve the help in the 1st place. Anyone who thinks that was what happened throughout history as anything resembling a rule, as opposed to slavery, is also an idiot, incapable of using logic. America is too big to be successfully "run like Germany," or almost any other country in the world.

jimmy169

May be relevant: have you guys read about the Goldman Sachs exec that quit recently?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/op...man-sachs.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ion/53524744/1

http://money.cnn.com/2012/03/14/mark...sachs/?npt=NP1

Wolfsblut

I just had to chime in and say that from my viewpoint most germans don't recognize their country as socialist, especially those in the former parts of East Germany.

jimmy169

Most Americans don't either, don't let the rednecks skew your view of how most people feel about Germany and the rest of Europe. We can barely get 10 day vacations a year, healthcare is a joke that will bankrupt anyone caught in it's tracks, public transportation is laughable, and all the while "job creators" that are not currently creating much of anything get the biggest tax breaks, buy out our government, and then declare class warfare when someone mentions that while a normal person pays 30% or so in taxes, you have multi-millionaires (for example one man worth 250 million) pay 15% in taxes, and some of the most major companies paying nothing in taxes that continue to lobby for bigger perks.

The whole top down economics idea, so a corporation gets a tax break that's paid for by the rest of us, they're going to hire more people and do exactly what with them when demand remains the same? Let them take a stroll and have some rest and relaxation 8 hours a day? On the flip side, if the tax code was actually leveled off, average Joe had more money in his/her pocket that actually gets spent and not just hidden oversee's somewhere, then maybe the "job creators" would have a reason and motivation to hire, because business is good.

It'llrun

Do those in the east think it's still communism? My gals mom(Sabine) didn't think it was socialism herself, till she came to America. Now she just bitches incessantly about what she's NOT being handed. It gets old fast. "You know, in Germany our public toilets ah cleana. Dey have da self-cleaning and we should have dat in Amadica."

"You know, in Germany we half da autobahn and it is vede vede smoove, not like wodes in Amadica."

I say, what about NON Autobahn roads and while you're explaining that, how about I buy you a plane ticket home? Then she tells me about why "De Amadican gov't won't allow me to go back." It's nonsense, of course. She's like millions of other immigrants to America anymore. They want us to CONFORM to their ways rather than them conforming to ours.

Latch

iTrader: (8)

Yeah yeah I'm a socialist, and you're a fascist. Where does this get us?

Please explain to me how the fact that Volkswagan, BMW, and Mercedes-Benz are privately owned enterprises is "socialism." By definition it's not. Socialism would be if German companies were owned by the state and controlled by the workers.

Weekends off, overtime pay, and health benefits were all things unions had to fight for. They weren't gifts by management.

Really unions are only 140 years old?? Unions first started forming in America in the late 18th century. That would make them a little more than 140 years old.

Right, they didn't get paid more. That's something unions fought for.

Right, "union thugs" are the problem. Corporate thugs though, they're just fine.

How dare unions ask for more!! That's something only management can do! And if you don't think unions give up a lot in their negotiations... then I dunno what to say. Yes you're right that nothing's free. But try telling that to the managers who want you to work your *** off and pay you next to nothing.

Union membership is falling off because management has been beating it out of our heads. At my current job they force all the employees to watch anti-union propaganda, have a talk with the general manager, and then they send more anti-union spam to my home.

And as union membership has declined, so has working class wages.



Very predictably.

Of course it's not necessary to join a union to avoid becoming a slave. My point was that management wants to pay you as little as they can get away with, which is why American auto workers employeed by German companies make a fraction of the amount Germans make to do the same job. That's also why they spend huge sums of money lobbying in Congress against raising the minimum wage.

And since when is America too big? Corporations are GLOBAL in scale, wielding enormous political power, employing hundreds of thousands and sometimes millions of people (Walmart has over 2 million employees!), and holding huge amounts of capital. If you think America is too big to run properly then these corporations are WAY too big to be run successfully.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

Shareholders own the company. It really is their money, as it is their invested dollar at risk.

You find this becasue most of those people make the majority of their income of investments.

If you make (let's assume) $1,000,000 from a job and bring home $650,000 after paying 35% tax (making the numbers easy, not going to do the tax bands), and invest large amounts of it, your eventually going to have and investment portfolio that returns a significant sum. However those profits will be re-taxed at 15% for capital gains.

In the case of the very wealthy they have just tipped the balance to the Capital Gains side of the equation. Their investemnt income is outstripping their salary from a job. However, all the funds used for investment was at one time taxed as regular income. They are not playing some game where said CEO (for example) is getting 15% pulled from his check while you get dinged at 30%

Take the same person as above and assume they make $5,000,000 per year from investments. They will pay.

$1,000,000 x .35 = $350,000
$5,000,000 x .15 = $750,000 (<= Funds already taxed once at 35%)

$1,100,000/6,000,000 = 18.33%