Americans Cannot Afford the Average Price of New Vehicles
#21
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Not to turn this political, but part of the problem is once again...the government. They mandate things and $$$ goes up.
6 airbags....price goes up.
Wheel pressure sensors....price goes up.
Rearview cameras...(coming soon)
abs....price goes up.
RND for better gas milege.....price goes up.
Its not like the manufacturers are going to say "well its in the customers best intrest, we will eat the cost of these".
6 airbags....price goes up.
Wheel pressure sensors....price goes up.
Rearview cameras...(coming soon)
abs....price goes up.
RND for better gas milege.....price goes up.
Its not like the manufacturers are going to say "well its in the customers best intrest, we will eat the cost of these".
Don't forget traction control AND stability control are now mandated. Soon to come are collision avoidance systems and warnings (vibrations when leaving a lane, automatically applying the brakes when about to rear end someone, etc).
Air bags, seat belts, and making cars that allow you to walk away from a crash are all that should be mandated. If you can't drive a ******* car without traction control, stability control, tire pressure sensors, etc, you shouldn't have your goddamn license! Pretty soon it's going to be government mandated that everyone can only use one of those Google cars that drives itself
Air bags, seat belts, and making cars that allow you to walk away from a crash are all that should be mandated. If you can't drive a ******* car without traction control, stability control, tire pressure sensors, etc, you shouldn't have your goddamn license! Pretty soon it's going to be government mandated that everyone can only use one of those Google cars that drives itself
#23
Launching!
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: the shit hole of Albuquerque, New Mexico
Posts: 251
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Having worked on cars in the last 20 years, GM mainly, I can agree on the more usless crap installed in cars causes the price to go up. That and the fact automakers and the government are trying to protect people from themselves with above mention regulations. IMO 2005 is the year most new cars turned from 'somewhat easy to work on' to 'I need too many specialized tools or training to fix it'.
My old 05 GTO was the newest car that I would own only because it was older technology dating from the early 2000's. Anything newer is/was too expensive and to complicated for the average person to work on. I'll stick with my 2 4th gen f-bodies or even buy a Fox mustang if I want to go fast for less...
My old 05 GTO was the newest car that I would own only because it was older technology dating from the early 2000's. Anything newer is/was too expensive and to complicated for the average person to work on. I'll stick with my 2 4th gen f-bodies or even buy a Fox mustang if I want to go fast for less...
#24
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (6)
Having worked on cars in the last 20 years, GM mainly, I can agree on the more usless crap installed in cars causes the price to go up. That and the fact automakers and the government are trying to protect people from themselves with above mention regulations. IMO 2005 is the year most new cars turned from 'somewhat easy to work on' to 'I need too many specialized tools or training to fix it'.
My old 05 GTO was the newest car that I would own only because it was older technology dating from the early 2000's. Anything newer is/was too expensive and to complicated for the average person to work on. I'll stick with my 2 4th gen f-bodies or even buy a Fox mustang if I want to go fast for less...
My old 05 GTO was the newest car that I would own only because it was older technology dating from the early 2000's. Anything newer is/was too expensive and to complicated for the average person to work on. I'll stick with my 2 4th gen f-bodies or even buy a Fox mustang if I want to go fast for less...
I would agree with you, but change the year to 2013 as 2014 goes to LTx tech and supposed un-crackable ECUs, DI, and VVT.
#25
TECH Regular
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not to turn this political, but part of the problem is once again...the government. They mandate things and $$$ goes up.
6 airbags....price goes up.
Wheel pressure sensors....price goes up.
Rearview cameras...(coming soon)
abs....price goes up.
RND for better gas milege.....price goes up.
Its not like the manufacturers are going to say "well its in the customers best intrest, we will eat the cost of these".
6 airbags....price goes up.
Wheel pressure sensors....price goes up.
Rearview cameras...(coming soon)
abs....price goes up.
RND for better gas milege.....price goes up.
Its not like the manufacturers are going to say "well its in the customers best intrest, we will eat the cost of these".
#26
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^^ There was a time where cars didn't have ABS or airbags and looks like we made it alright then as well.
I think these additional things provide "false" security with drivers nowadays. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in parking lot accidents that say," I didn't see him in my backup camera" , I ask were you looking over your shoulder and behind you and I get the answer of "No". Pathetic.
I think these additional things provide "false" security with drivers nowadays. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in parking lot accidents that say," I didn't see him in my backup camera" , I ask were you looking over your shoulder and behind you and I get the answer of "No". Pathetic.
#27
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
Im not so sure I buy into all that. You know this idea that at the end of the day were gonna just blame the goverment because they required some sort of mandate. Lets say the goverment stopped mandating. Lets say they repealed them all and left it to the car companys to do what they wanted to do. Lets say the car companys no longer had to provide those evil mandated features. Of course they would still be available, but now its a matter of which of these features do you wanna pay for. If you wanted ABS you pay for it. If you wanted air bags or traction control you pay for that etc, etc. Maybe they would even let you choose how many air bags you wanted. Who's to say the car companies won't strip all those goverment mandated features out of the car and still turn around and charge you the same price. Why wouldn't they? Now not only are you choosing between leather and cloth seats now your deciding between ABS and or air bags. And the argument of "well I'll just go somewhere else". Where would that be? If one car company can get away with making an extra buck doing this whats to stop the rest of them. May not happen over night but I would argue it would be a sad day if you had to choose whether or not you could afford airbags or ABS or not.
It is a fact that government mandating air bags, TPMS, stability control, seat belts, crash ratings, etc. have increased the material cost as well as R&D that goes into the design/construction of a newer vehicle.
#30
TECH Enthusiast
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Louisiana, USA
Posts: 700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^^ There was a time where cars didn't have ABS or airbags and looks like we made it alright then as well.
I think these additional things provide "false" security with drivers nowadays. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in parking lot accidents that say," I didn't see him in my backup camera" , I ask were you looking over your shoulder and behind you and I get the answer of "No". Pathetic.
I think these additional things provide "false" security with drivers nowadays. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in parking lot accidents that say," I didn't see him in my backup camera" , I ask were you looking over your shoulder and behind you and I get the answer of "No". Pathetic.
#31
TECH Regular
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...-vs-59-Bel-Air
http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1950-a-42404/
I think these additional things provide "false" security with drivers nowadays. I can't tell you how many people I've talked to in parking lot accidents that say," I didn't see him in my backup camera" , I ask were you looking over your shoulder and behind you and I get the answer of "No". Pathetic.
#32
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (27)
I have to agree that it's tough to buy a new car. I live in Chicago. I'm a lawyer at a medium size firm. Get paid a decent salary. But there's no way I could afford a new car. Just because I can get approved for a car loan for $40k doesn't mean I can afford it.
Between rent+utils, student loan, food/gas, cell phone, savings for a house, savings for emergencies/vacation - it's not worth cutting back on other life needs to pay a $500+ monthly car payment for something that will lose 1/3 of its value before I pay 1/3 of it off.
That's why I never understood the BMW 5 series buyer. $70k off the lot, 2 years later, good luck selling it for even $50k.
The great thing about LS1 fbodies is that they've hit a maintainable basement. You buy it for $5/6/7k, you can sell it for $5/6/7k in 2 years. Now if only these STi/Evo guys would figure it out and stop asking $19,000 for a clapped out 85k mile 8 year old car....
Between rent+utils, student loan, food/gas, cell phone, savings for a house, savings for emergencies/vacation - it's not worth cutting back on other life needs to pay a $500+ monthly car payment for something that will lose 1/3 of its value before I pay 1/3 of it off.
That's why I never understood the BMW 5 series buyer. $70k off the lot, 2 years later, good luck selling it for even $50k.
The great thing about LS1 fbodies is that they've hit a maintainable basement. You buy it for $5/6/7k, you can sell it for $5/6/7k in 2 years. Now if only these STi/Evo guys would figure it out and stop asking $19,000 for a clapped out 85k mile 8 year old car....
#33
TECH Regular
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its also a fact that there are far fewer vehicle fatalites today then there were back in the 1950s as a reult of those goverment mandates.
#35
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (1)
No it doesn't, but there lies the problem. There ain't no guarantee that the savings from not having those features is gonna get passed along to you either. Your precieved savings could be some CEO's bonus check. In your eyes the goverment is making the car more expensive. In my eyes the goverment is making the CEO put that bonus check into the car. Maybe I'll pay more for the car but seeing as how my wife is driving my son around in that car. I'll pay the extra cost.
I never argued that these safety features were pointless. My point was that all of these features have resulted in higher vehicle prices, and that these items were mandated by the government (DOT).
#36
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We made it alright huh?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...-vs-59-Bel-Air
http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1950-a-42404/
You cannot fix stupid. I could care less about back up cameras, I always look and proceed with caution thats not what Im talking about. Im talking about features like ABS, airbags, seat belts and cars that are designed to absorb impact. My life and my family are worth the extra cost. Your mileage my vary.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...-vs-59-Bel-Air
http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1950-a-42404/
You cannot fix stupid. I could care less about back up cameras, I always look and proceed with caution thats not what Im talking about. Im talking about features like ABS, airbags, seat belts and cars that are designed to absorb impact. My life and my family are worth the extra cost. Your mileage my vary.
If people would just pay attention and actually figure out how to drive I guarantee accidents would drop by 50% easily.
I drove several vehicles for several years that had no airbags, no ABS or anything and never had one problem.
Edit: And researching on wiki, number of just "Fatal" accidents in 1959 was 36223, in 2011 32,367. Even though a great increase in population, not a very big reduction in fatality accidents. This also doesn't take into account how many actual licensed drivers there are compared to the population and lots of other variables.
Last edited by Jon5212; 03-15-2013 at 09:02 AM.
#37
TECH Veteran
iTrader: (19)
Edit: And researching on wiki, number of just "Fatal" accidents in 1959 was 36223, in 2011 32,367. Even though a great increase in population, not a very big reduction in fatality accidents. This also doesn't take into account how many actual licensed drivers there are compared to the population and lots of other variables.
1950 US Population --> 150,697,361
Current estimate from US GOV --> 313,914,040 (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html)
http://www.project.org/info.php?recordID=443
Yet, how are there less deaths if usage and congestion is higher??
#38
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
^^ It's not flawed since I clearly explained that there are lots of other variables in there. Good try though.
Still the number of "Deaths" is still significant, and there doesn't seem to be a significant reduction. And going even further, with these fatal accidents, would the airbags and seatbelts and all of the other gadgets even mattered?
Still the number of "Deaths" is still significant, and there doesn't seem to be a significant reduction. And going even further, with these fatal accidents, would the airbags and seatbelts and all of the other gadgets even mattered?
#39
TECH Addict
iTrader: (1)
^^ It's not flawed since I clearly explained that there are lots of other variables in there. Good try though.
Still the number of "Deaths" is still significant, and there doesn't seem to be a significant reduction. And going even further, with these fatal accidents, would the airbags and seatbelts and all of the other gadgets even mattered?
Still the number of "Deaths" is still significant, and there doesn't seem to be a significant reduction. And going even further, with these fatal accidents, would the airbags and seatbelts and all of the other gadgets even mattered?
36,223/150,697,361 = 0.02% chance of death
32,367/313,914,040 = 0.01% chance of death
Your expected deaths from population change would be around
(313,914,040/150,697,361)*36,223 = 75,455
You are looking at a survival rate increase beyond 50%. Mostly attibutable, in my opinion, to vehicle construction.
#40
Douchebag On The Tree
We made it alright huh?
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...-vs-59-Bel-Air
http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1950-a-42404/
You cannot fix stupid. I could care less about back up cameras, I always look and proceed with caution thats not what Im talking about. Im talking about features like ABS, airbags, seat belts and cars that are designed to absorb impact. My life and my family are worth the extra cost. Your mileage my vary.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2009/1...-vs-59-Bel-Air
http://www.documentingreality.com/fo...-1950-a-42404/
You cannot fix stupid. I could care less about back up cameras, I always look and proceed with caution thats not what Im talking about. Im talking about features like ABS, airbags, seat belts and cars that are designed to absorb impact. My life and my family are worth the extra cost. Your mileage my vary.
As far as the statistics go, I think it would be interesting for someone to compare the numbers of accidents to the number of drivers and miles driven per capita. That's really the only way you're gonna see if people were better drivers back in the old day. Of course accidents are lower because the cars are safer in an accident, but we might not be as good at avoiding accidents today.
It should definitely be more difficult to obtain a driver's license. There should be all kinds of driving scenarios taught. You should learn how to control a car in accident avoidance scenarios, spin out scenarios, etc. If you learned in a FWD car and then go to register a RWD vehicle you should have to take a short course learning the handling characteristics of RWD as well.