WE TODD DID

iTrader: (2)

The competition was not about peak power and torque. What wins is the highest combined average power and torque. This year, the scoring is alittle different, and includes peak numbers in the equation. Kaase's engine peaked over 800hp in testing. Mod motors are dog **** imo in the real world, but for this competition, there is no better platform. This year 4v mod motors are not legal.

It'llrun

Hence... It almost always happens this way, since 1969... The engines that will always win... get banned for being too good for the competition. That's not a slight toward any type of engine. I'm just noting the truth of the matter. NASCAR did it after the "CAMMER" and NHRA did it in 1997 after the DOHC smashed its competition in a Top Fuel setup.

We should also note: The 5 peak hp thing not only doesn't matter, but these engines were in the same c.i. range, considering LSX and Mod. Calling one "little" and the other a "massive boat anchor" when the cubes are this close simply doesn't make sense. Especially when the "boat anchor" proved better than the... paper weight.

Was this Kaase's 5th win? Man... Didn't he bring a Pontiac entry once?

JD_AMG

Boy, for "not being a ford fanboy" you sure are blindly defending the mod motor hard...
Calling one "little" and the other "massive" makes perfect sense considering its the truth, displacement is NOT the engine's physical size. The mod motors are HUGE, 4.6, 5.4 etc, doesn't matter, they are physically massive, heavy engines, where as the LSx, being 4.8L or 7+L are physically much smaller, and lighter.
Which would you call massive and which would you call small? Both are close to the same CI... (the engine on the right is actually more CI)

Irunelevens

And yet both of those engines fit quite nicely in the cars they were designed to go in. So unless you are trying to swap an engine into a small space, it doesn't really matter. And for the record I would have no problem swapping an LSx motor into, say, a notchback or something like that.

Zac_Speed

iTrader: (4)

Who has the most racing wins in all classes combined throughout motor sports? I believe that belongs to GM right? Especially in NASCAR.

With that said, why dont you list up all the rule changes that have been made over the years to slow the Chevy's down Irunelevens?

It'llrun

Yeah, people make far too big a deal about the exterior size of the modular engines. It's been such a "big deal" to argue even the weight, most simply assume the new 5L must be a 500 lb engine.

It fits under the hood and between the fenders of a Fox body Mustang and more... That's not exactly the widest car in the world, for those 2 people who didn't know. For that matter, they've been installed into Mazda Miata's... MX-5 is one of the smallest cars available.

What should one think, though... 'Hmm... I would sure like to use that engine with most potential, but dang, it looks too big!' Nonsense.

Mike Morris

iTrader: (55)

I think most people's complaint is that they can't relate to a mega buck motor based on something that is difficult to work on,take apart,complex and very expensive and time consuming to mod.

Irunelevens

You mean It'llrun?
I don't doubt that this mod motor was probably quite expensive, but none of the engines in this contest were "budget builds."

itsslow98

iTrader: (18)

I really do think it goes to show the capabilities of the 4v heads. You can't call AFR or Trick flow and buy a set of 4v heads and bolt them on for an extra 60rwhp. Its a work of art and skill to really get a set of 4v heads to flow the kind of air to support that power level in a stock casting.

It'llrun

Chevy, Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Buick and now Cadillac... all used for racing. GM supports nearly twice as many NASCAR teams as Ford today, and when the other nameplates were involved, it was still many more... It's not a real comparison to say that GM has the most wins, when the deck has purposely been stacked in their favor.

For example: The last race of the season had 9 Fords entered and 12 Chevy's. That's one race and I'm not looking at them all to see, but it's been lopsided for 50yrs or more. Same story for NATIONWIDE... 15 GM's and 7 Fords. Not exactly even. 17 GM's to 3 Fords in the Camping World Trucks series... all that is "as of" the 2013 Ecoboost 200,300,400.

Plus, we know for a fact that NASCAR, for example, has changed rules specifically to slow Fords. After the 1998 Daytona 500, Fords started winning and NASCAR forced a smaller rear wing for the 2nd time in a season, specifically to slow the Fords... It worked.

We also know they did the same thing, BANNING OUTRIGHT, the use of Fords' "CAMMER" 427 even before its absolute dominance in 1964. Later, NHRA also banned it, as always, by rule changes. Now, it can only be used in "vintage" class racing.

Ford big blocks(385 series I think) were BANNED from NHRA... by rule changes that just happened to make their bore spacing illegal.

I'd be willing to see this myself.

We're already totally

Without any aftermarket, it's a good thing those heads are so good. Of course, part of why there's no aftermarket is that they're so good...

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

That works both ways. They played with spoiler rules to the cars in 1995/6 when the then new Monte Carlo's were laying an unholy whipping on the Thunderbirds. Taurus was new for 1998 and nobody really new what they had until the real races started. Common template has eneded that discussion.

JD_AMG

Come on you know better than this, may want to read the part where I said:
"And its not just about getting the engine to fit (although im sure in most cases it take quite a bit of cutting to get a mod motor to fit in most smaller engine bays), but its about where it fits. With a smaller engine you can mount it lower and closer to the center of the chassis for better all around performance." from post #17.


[Ford] People make far too big of a deal about displacement. Its irrelevant in the real world, what matters is power/torque, weight and physical size.

Read my reply to Irunelevens.
Why do so many high cost independent brand supercars run LSx engines and not mod motors? It can't just be cost of performance...

More like "Im building a track car, and I want a light, small engine to mount low to the ground and near the center of the chassis... Well that rules out modular engines..."
Or maybe
"I want a light/small engine that makes a ton of power without breaking the bank... Well that rules out modular engines..."
Or
"Damn I might as well go with a BBC/BBF/BB hemi, its the same size/weight but WAY more power potential for cheaper."
Salt for the wounds:
4.6L Modular compared to 520ci (8.5L) BB hemi.

Problem?

It'llrun

They were essentially the same size before the second rule change in 1998. Plus, NASCAR forced not only the Taurus, but also T-bird to change that spoiler in 1998. It slowed them, no question. The only places they were allowed to use the the 2nd rendition(as opposed to 3rd), if memory serves here, was on Super Speedways.

Irunelevens

Yet another BS picture that makes a big engine look bigger than it actually is.

Zmg00camaross

iTrader: (11)

The 4v heads flow great. Low Valvetrain weight all equals more hp. The headers are super trick. There is more money in that thing then some ppl houses.

It'llrun

To a point, I disagree... To a point, I do agree. The mod is missing several pieces, including an intake, timing cover, crankshaft... apparently. My eyes are getting older and I have a bit of trouble with some of these.

Conversely, the Dodge is sitting on a tire, lowering it as compared to the mod and if they were both a a crate, the Dodge would look smaller anyway, because it would crush the milk crate. If each was on a tire though, the Elephant would look bigger.

Side note: It's more nonsense to point out the cubes of the Chrylser vs the Ford because we're ONLY comparing exterior size.

PS I've never heard of anyone using a 426 Hemi in a Miata...

Fixed it.

If they live in a cardboard box or the like... I mean, sure, if you're living in a 20yr + old trailer, I agree because it's value has dropped, regardless condition. Even so, these modular engines typically use not only factory heads, but crank and block as well. Machine work simply cannot cost all that much for a machine shop. Their bigger costs are in labor hours and not parts.

WE TODD DID

iTrader: (2)

The mod had a bryant billet shaft. Also have to figure in trial and error with different cylinder heads, manifolds, camshafts, etc. That particular manifold is several thousand bucks because it's hard to find. Camshafts are about $1200 a set, so if you try two or three sets..... Now if we're just counting material cost, he came out good winning. If we had to count labor, he lost his ***. He does the engine master's not for the $$$, but for the challenge. It takes some ingenuity, and innovation to win that competition.

It'llrun

My only question with that intake was, why did they use it... Did the rules require factory stuff? Anyway, I still think labor cost him far more than the engine parts and I suspect he had several of the parts before he even considered building a 5.4L for the challenge.

WE TODD DID

iTrader: (2)

600 ft/lbs at 3000 rpm is why. He didn't have any of the parts beforehand. Bought everything after the rules were out.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

There is really a lot more than one season going on there. If memory serves the spoilers were 60inx6in at the end of the 1994 season. The factory real fender profile of the Monte Carlo being developed would not allow a 60 inch spoiler to fit. Ford did not want to go down to a 55in spoiler that would fit. Chevy was allowed to expand the ear fenders to accomodate. They took a very liberal tilt. They wound up with a dominate car (Won 27 of 34 in 1995). By the end of the 1995 season I recall the thunderbird spoiler was 60inx 6.25 or 6.5 in and the Chevy spoiler was 60inx 5.5in or so. During the Tuarus developement the 5 (ground clearance) and 5 (spoiler) rule was announced for the 1998 season. The Taurus was designed around that rule, while the Chevy was not.

Point of the story is that both manufacturers were fighting and monkeying with the rules in those days.