10.5 Dave

iTrader: (5)

Unskilled high school diploma(or less) assembly line worker $60k=damn good job.The same person would be lucky to make half that anywhere else.

Steve Miller who gave up his salary while Delphi is restructuring is grossly underpaid for running a 50 billion dollar a yr company.I was shocked at how low his pay was when he was still getting paid of course.I know a person that is the CEO of a 600 million $$ a yr company and he get's paid better than Steve Miller.

Comparing the salary of an assembly line worker that can be replaced in a moments notice without a hick up to the CEO of the company is a joke.

If Steve Miller is responsible for Delphi's ills I think the UAW and undesirable vehicles from GM share equal responsibilty.

If I was Delphi,GM or Ford I would attempt to negotiate with the UAW while shutting down plant after plant in the USA.I would come up with a fair wage and tell everybody you need to make a decision on working here or not.If it's not adequate for a person they can quit and work somewhere else.The courts would never let it happen but it's a good thought.Employees don't run the company management and shareholders do.

I'm from Detroit and have family that is currently working for or retired from
Delphi
Lear
Visteon
Ford
GM
Chrysler (deceased grandfather 47 yrs at the Trenton engine plant)
Dana

It make's for interesting conversations at out yearly family reunion.

nbm00ws6

iTrader: (4)

Dave we know how you feel about union workers, you have stated every union worker you know bitches to much and is lazy. You have also made the statement that you love to hire migrant workers to roof houses so you make more profit, but heck you think that's the Americian Way now. So I would expect no less from you. Another thing, Why do you care what happens to a lazy union worker?
Tom

Billiumss

iTrader: (11)

Once all the good paying jobs are out-sourced to China, Mexico and South America, America will be screwed.

I work for a Union, but I had to have a degree to get my job. Now that CAFTA has passed (thanks alot Mr Bush) it's only a matter of time before I lose my job. My company has been working with another company the past few years in South America and CAFTA is the icing on the cake for them.

Unions are ok and I can see why we need them, but unfortunatly, they are going down due to outsourcing.

Without good paying jobs in America, how will the average person be able to afford a nice house and buy a nice new car? There will only be 2 types of people in the USA in 20-40 years. People that barely can make it and the rich.

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

let's review:

so your point was that they aren't shifting jobs from the US? then SAY THAT right off the bat!!! reading a post is one thing, reading your mind is a whole different ballgame! why write something that is completely false to prove a point that is nowhere to be seen even if what you wrote was true in the first place???

and honestly, does it matter if it's a joint venture or not? a growing percentage of ALL CARS from here on out will be joint ventures......and despite that, yes, the chrysler 300 is being built BY CHRYSLER in china: http://www.freep.com/news/latestnews...5_20050916.htm

and if you honestly think that a factory over there won't eventually effect factories over here by making the same product at half the price, i don't know what to say..........there is NO WAY american workers, whether they are making minimum wage or 26$ an hour, can compete with a communist country where labor is pennies on the dollar compared to us, and where the government is paying handsomly for US AUTOMAKERS and SUPPLIERS to build new plants......
i work at an engine assembly plant, and up until a month or so ago we got our blocks from a foundry in kokoma, indiana. now we get them from brazil, where despite them having to travel halfway across the world and taking a month to get here, they still cost half......the american worker could make 5 bucks an hour and not compete with that! not only is labor cheaper, but do you think that the foundry in brazil has to adhere to half of the safety standards that kokoma has to???? less safety, less cost

for those of you who don't think that the union has done anything for you, and who don't think that any of this is gonna have a negative impact on you, think again......why do we have the labor laws we have? union lobyists....why do we have safety rules in place to protect our workers? union lobbyists.......why do we even HAVE an upper middle class? the union, and don't tell me that just because somebody doesn't have a stupid piece of paper saying they went to college makes them any less valuable than some frat boy pushing paper at arthur anderson for 60k a year!!!!!
every major company has taken the money that the AMERICAN WORKER has produced over the last several decades and sunk it into overseas manufacturing, yet this isn't displacing workers???? WAKE UP!!!!!

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, if he was doing a decent job of running a billion dollar company, he should be rewarded handsomely.......but too many times in recent history a ceo has run his business into the red, only to see his personal fortune grow...how does that make any sense?

someone earlier made a point, and it seems to be echoed here, that the employees don't make the decisions, they just punch in, punch out, and all heavy lifting is done by management........this is one of the major problems with the big three: one of the reasons toyota has been so succesfull is that they LISTEN to the EMPLOYEES, from the top to the bottom! what a novel concept! listen to the people who are around the product every hour of every day? are they nuts? whereas the big three supervision pushes product through to get numbers, toyota encourages line stoppage if there is anything at all out of place.......one example: they have a pull chord and WANT it pulled if something doesn't seem right on a certain line......so the powers that be at chrysler thought that was a great idea, and they put in a pull chord too.....only their idea of improvement is scaring the worker into pulling the chord less and less and letting more and more un-fit product through the line! and they got their numbers on paper(even if it later gets scrapped)!!! and they get promotions!!!! and when warranty costs stay up and production drops and plants close, they get hefty severences!!!! while the line worker gets laid off, health care taken away, ect. ect......

White_Hawk

iTrader: (3)

My apologies, I thought you could follow a simple conversation. Below is the post I was responding to. You can clearly see the last line says "CLOSE PLANTS IN THE U.S.A AND BUILD THE PRODUCTS SOMEWHERE ELSE". I was pointing out the fact that the OEM's aren't shifting production like that. Now read what I wrote. Can you see how they are related now?

I think it is amusing that you have learned from your union leadership. You quote me out of context and use that to try to prove your point. You also attack me personally instead of addressing the real issues. Sound familiar? It is the same thing Ron Gettlefinger is doing to Miller.

Ronny boy better wake up, he just got his *** kicked at GM, and Miller is going to serve his *** up on a plate next year when he gets that contract voided. And Ron is already talking strike. Ask those Northwest mechanics how their strike worked out. You think Delphi isn't going to do the same thing? You walk off the job and onto that picket line, you better learn how to say "You want fries with that" or maybe "Paper or plastic".

-Geoff

technical

Unions have been doing a pretty good job of shooting themselves in the foot. Outsourcing is the result of the union's power over a company. When we look at the abuses of executives milking a compnany we also have to look at the unions doing some milking as well. I'm not saying that outsourcing wouldn't have happened by itself, but union demands always put a bad taste in management's mouth. If the workers' wages were dictated by the market + *some* union influence, then outsourcing wouldn't be so profitable. The union causes labor rates to increase disproportionally to the market thereby prompting a company to seek alternative (cheaper) sources of labor. We also have to understand that companies, especially manufacturing companies, have to compete with foreign companies that can undercut them so terribly. This means an American company has to stay competitive or go under. It's great to have a union fight for your wages and benefits, but not at the cost of bankrupting the company and ultimately putting you out of work.

To answer your rhetorical question, people entering the market need to understand the dynamics of the environment and not expect a blue collar job to pay what a white collar job does. There was a time you could raise a family on the salary of a tradesman, line worker, etc. very easily. Nowadays both parents need to work and one needs to have a very good paying job if you want to confortably raise a family. Times have changed for better or worse, but they have changed nonetheless.

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

How can something that is written as an absolute(i.e. "No automaker is building new plants out of the USA.") be taken out of context? it can't, because there are no qualifiers. if your response is to indicate your wrong assertion that no oems are closing plants here to build plants in other countries, it fails miserably....you said you can "vouch" for the fact that none of the big three are building outside of the u.s.,period, and yet they are

where is dcx's hemi engine built? mexico......what does that 5.7l hemi replace? the old 360.....where was that built? detroit, michigan at the NOW CLOSED mound road engine plant......but how is that? i thought you said that no american car company was doing such things? and like i said before, anyone who thinks that chrysler building the lx cars in china for way less than they are in canada isn't going to effect north american jobs somewhere down the line, think again


the v-10 was also slated to be built in trenton.....the company spent 32 million dollars to put in the new line, only to cancel it at the last minute due to the hemi being more than capable of replacing both the 360 and the v-10 truck engine........ they waste money like that as if it is water, but it's all the lazy american autoworker's fault.....

i've already stated in this thread that i'm not a very big fan of our union's leadership.....they have become fat, and there aren't any checks/balances to reel them in, except what is happening to them now, so it had to happen......but don't be so arrogant as to think that over the past 50 years american unions haven't done a heck of a lot for this country, and if run properly still couldn't be the "little guy's" voice

as far as the northwest mechanics, they were stupid...they didn't get any support from any other airline unions, and they had basically been training their replacements for the last 1 1/2 years.......

"paper or plastic?" ?????? don't you know that grocery baggers are union??? they pry make more money than you do!!!

White_Hawk

iTrader: (3)

Read my post one more time. I was talking about assembly plants. I am actually getting dumber just reading your posts. Maybe it is because of your lack of proper grammer. But then again, you don't need grammer to make $60,000 in the UAW! Right? You're living proof of that!

And by the way, I am sure the guy who puts the bags on the oil filters at Delphi is making more than me - at least until next year when starts making market rate which is about $10 per hour.

-Geoff

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

????
oh that's right, we're supposed to read your mind! because for the life of me, i can't recall you once specifying that you were speaking of assembly plants only....it seems as though each "point" you've made has been wrong, and when the proof you ask for is given, your statement is thusly altered....

now, for argument's sake, let's say that you really were speaking only of assembly plants. why????? Chrysler closes it's u.s. foundry, choosing instead to buy blocks from brazil. those are american autoworker jobs, being outsourced(or shifted) to brazil. but somehow those don't count because they aren't actually assembling the car? they had the same name on their checks that the guy working the line at warren truck does, but somehow that's different? somehow we aren't losing "big three" autoworker jobs to brazil? maybe i'm not really an "autoworker" because i only work at an engine plant?

so, if you could, clarify the above quote for me in whatever context you choose.....

nbm00ws6

iTrader: (4)

He hasn't givin up anything yet, see his $1 a year salary doesn't start until Jan. of 2006. So from July of 2005 until Dec. of 2005 he will make $125,000 per month plus the $3 million signing bonus=$3.75 million for 6 months work, sounds like he's getting paid very well to me. He also gets to use the Delphi jet and alot of other perks.
Tom

White_Hawk

iTrader: (3)

So it looks like their are still outsourcing some of their components. Are you an internet bully or do you have an actual point? At least I can read and write the English language. Unlike certian UAW posters in this thread.

-Geoff

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

a bully? naw, it just bugs me when people start spouting off about things they obviously know nothing about. ignorance is infectious, and what starts off as some internet slander can suddenly becomes the basis for some folk's worldview....to me, that's dangerous......
my point? that we are losing jobs to other countries, which is a fact. we cannot compete with the labor force of communist countries or third world countries, whether we are making 5 dollars an hour or 60 dollars an hour....the playing field is far from level, and it's gonna take more than us working for 10 bucks an hour to even it out.....

i never claimed to have perfect grammar, and Lord knows i can't spell worth a lick, but "let he who is perfect cast the first stone"
[allow me to help, since "proper English" seems so important to you:
So, it looks like they're* still outsourcing some of their components. Are you an internet bully, or do you have an actual point? At least I can read and write the English language, unlike certain UAW posters in this thread.]

*"they are" is also acceptable, but obviously "their are" is not

White_Hawk

iTrader: (3)

Yep, internet bully. I pretty much called it. Dude, get a life, I would fill up ten pages correcting your posts. Those of us who have to work at real jobs (unlike you and your UAW bretheren) don't always have time to proof read while we eat our lunch at our desks.

Since you have all the answers, I am waiting for someone to explain to my why any UAW member deserves to have a job's bank to fall back on. Why can't they go on unemployment and find jobs like the rest of the world has to do?

-Geoff

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

you have a desk??? lucky

hey, i'm the first person to admit that i can't spell worth a darn, and my sentence structure leaves much to be desired but i figured since it meant so much to you, you'd want to be made aware of your mistakes...as for me: i could care less

"internet bully"???? but i thought that i was the one supposedly resorting to personal attacks? if you want to come in here and give your opinions about what is wrong with our world, i can respect that. but if you are gonna say something that is absolutely false, i'm gonna tell you you're wrong, and i'm gonna tell you why you are wrong. if you can't handle that, stop saying stupid stuff.

as for the "job's bank" as you called it(or "job bank" as it is normally referred to): why does it exist? because the company and the union BOTH agreed to it. the company liked the concept because they are able to retain employees that they have already invested time and money into training, rather than losing them to the outside. they also are able to use the majority of these employees to work in various charities(tax write off) and fill in at plants as needed. the union likes it because it gives their members security from plant closures, and they felt it would give the company incentive to keep too many plants from closing. while it's not always administered as it should be, it's a far cry from what i'm sure you've read in the media, i.e. 12k people getting paid to do nothing.

...anything else i can help you with?


why the jealous diatribe? did the uaw shoot your dog????? if so, i completely understand, but if not it seems as though it's nothing more than sour grapes.

technical

[levity] :stone cast: [/levity]









You had to see that one coming.

SSCamaro99_3

iTrader: (1)

I personally get the sneaking suspicion that the Delphi bankruptcy was "planned". They knew that Delphi couldn't survive on its own, and served it up as an example to the UAW. Just a random thought.

jdustu

iTrader: (2)

you aren't the only one with that suspicion........


you don't live in a glass house, do you?

you can make fun of my spelling and grammar all you want, so long as you understand when to use "their" instead of "they're" and can spell "certain" correctly

10.5 Dave

iTrader: (5)

Tom I don't ever recall saying all union members are lazy.I see city union workers using 12 guys to do a job that would take three people to do if it was a private company.
I know for a fact auto workers are pushed hard at work and should be.If I was paying people $65.00 an hour you can bet your *** they're going to be working really hard.

As far as the migrant workers go it was a decision I was forced to make,and it had nothing to do with getting cheaper labor.If I had a dollar for everytime people asked'What do you pay them,$20.00 a day'I would be rich.I needed people to come to work every day and follow a very tough quality standard that most American roofers don't do,regardless of how much money you throw at them.Yep that's right the Hispanics do higher quality work than the average American roofer.The 12 Hispanic crews I have get paid the same as my 2 white crews per unit but they typically earn 3-4 times as much per week because of their work ethic.

When I was 26 yrs old I lost a 2 million a yr account because my American roofers decided I was making to much money and they disappeared on me when I had 20 roofs ready to go.Damn near lost everything,my wife and children suffered because I counted on losers.From that point on I decided I was the person that needed to be happy,not my workers.

I treat my guys great and have tons of work to do now,but if they don't get with my program they're shitcanned and forgotten about.

I don't blame any of you union guys for getting everything you can at work,I do it every day.Just remember every time you demand higher wages and benefits your job get's less secure and a more attractive to be outsourced.

Tom on a serious note I hope things work out for you,I know you have three young children to take care of.While I hate unions I don't like to see someone that's worked their whole life put in a bad spot.

Dave

technical

Funny how those two cliches don't get along. If you're perfect you can throw a stone, but if you live in a glass house you'll be homeless. Just a bit of a catch 22.