cvp33

I've posted this once before but I'll chime in again. No one really believes that the V is cross shopped with AMG's or M's or RS6's for that matter. Once you make up your mind to spend $80 large that's it. You're spending it for reasons other than "reason" or practicality. When you step into those lofty numbers you're talking prestige, image, heritage, perception, etc.

I think the more appropriate cross shop is the GS430, Lincoln LSV8, E500, 540i, etc. Closer in price, but territory where the V's 400 hp could sway some opinions. Let's also not forget cannibalization from existing customers. I was waiting on a pre-ordered GTO and switched after justifying the extra $10-15,000. I also think there are Corvette buyers that need/want four seats who will make the leap. And finally the CTS buyer who is already in the $45,000 range with the fully loaded, 3.6l and sport package.

I'm not discouraged by the comparison to M's or AMG's. In fact I'm flattered. Who would've thought that GM would be mentioned with these makes?

Shinkaze

Good point.

FWIW I like the interior of the GTO much better than the CTS (haven't sat in a V yet so I can't comment there), but like you I think the CTS is a better value for the upgrade cost. I can get both on GM employee discount which is another attraction, but really for me it's a choice between a nice ($50k-$60K) car for me or a $30K car plus a $30K SUV for Little woman. Of course if I do get one of the more epxsnive cars there will be some room left in the garage for the TA to stay around which is another plus. To bad the wife to be hates the TA so much.

Crozier

I'm not telling you that. Car and Driver is.

And why would that be so hard to believe?

CTS-V
Horsepower Of 400@6000, Torque Of 395@4000

M3
Horsepower Of 333@7900, Torque Of 262@4900

Seems like there's plenty of power to make up for the more substatial vehicle.

Shinkaze

I can believe the CTS-V woul take an M3 on Nuremburg, there a lot of straights that would allow the LS6 to really strech it's legs. On a tighter more technical course though the lighter weight and better handling of the M3 should pull it ahead though as the CTS has a huge weigh penalty to horse around.

Bowtiered

but think of it this way- if you were to turn both into race cars, i think the CTS-V would win. The CTS-V has more removable weight- rear seat, 4 door panels, probably larger heat/AC system, more carpet, spare/jack, etc. bigger car, has two more doors and still only weighs 600# more? i think that's impressive. those doors are probably 200lbs of that and the rear seats and mounts probably another 100.

CTS-V>M3 i rode in a modded 95 M3 with a 97 euro motor and was not thoroughly impressed. it has close numbers to new M3s- 260rwhp/240rwtq and think of the CTS-V this way- if you want an american M5- spend 90k- 45 on the CTS-V and 45 on interior upgrades, maybe a nice 427, or just even a nicely turbocharged engine and suspension.

Shinkaze

So in the end you would have to totally gut out a CTS-V in order to make it the same weight as a stock M3? I don't see your point here, since one would allways choose to start with a lighter smaller, better handling chassis for the purpose of a *****-out race car. Also not only can you do the same weight saving features to thye M3 as you can to a CTS-V (for greater gain), but you can even order a stripped lightweight M3 from the factory in the form of the M3 CSL.

The CSL weighs close to 500 pounds lighter than a standard M3 from the get go and it's a stock option. Features Carbon fiber body panels, Seat buckets and interior doors, more power, better brakes, etc etc etc.

Now if you want to compare aftermarket CTS-V to aftermarket M3, then the M3 wins in the handling department for sure, not much if anything is available for the CTS-V, while the M3 has gobs of aftermarket support. Even wide body kits.


The CTS does have the advantage of the Ls6 motor for sure as there is allready a serious aftermarket built up for that powerplant. but as I said above comparing the CTS-V against the M5 (new) and saying it's easy to save a ton of money and make it faster for the price difference, that same argument applies to buying a EVO/WRX STi over a CTS-V. Both can be made much faster than the CTS, for a lot less money, but in the end they are not as nice as the CTS and thus the CTS wins on other points beyond performance. Same with the M5, not only is it a better performer, it's a nicer car too but well it should be for the cost.

Crozier

As was stated earlier. There is no M5. We can't compare future models. There is going to be a 2005 model M5. But what about the 2006 CTS-V? What's it going to have under the hood? Will it be the same motor as the future z06? What will the future z06 have? Sounds like 500 horses.
In other words, if you want to compare the 04 CTS-v to the 05 M5, then I want to compare the 05 M5 to the 06 CTS-v.

One [Z28] Punch

URGGGHGHGHGHGH... why are people comparing a 4 door (CTS-V) to a 2 door (m3)

Are you comparing them just because they are in the same price range??? Although the CTS-V comes close performance wise to M3, they really shouldn't be compared.

4 doors:
CTS-V - M5 - RS6 - E55
4 door sport sedans

2 doors:
Z06 - M3 - GTO, etc.
2 door sport coupes

Personally, E55 packs the most punch and is flat out brutal. M5 in current mode is still one fine automobile and the RS6 is just underpowered.

If price wasn't an issue, I would take a CTS-V for $50k and drop another $20k for engine and suspension upgrades and watch my fellow import car enthusiasts face as I lap around their car.

Shinkaze

2 doors or 4 doors, the CTS-V is going to get cross-shopped with the M3, S4 and C55 AMG before it would be cross shopped with a M5, RS6 and E55 AMG. GM is marketing this car against the M5 etc to give it an extra perception of value.

I think a comparison with the M3 is fine since it will be compared to it on price bassis, that said the M3 is more focused on performance, and the CTS more on luxury.

Arrogant

I'd take a M5 over any American car. Period. I love my car, but the crappy *** interior comes striaght from Fisher Price. I've seen the CTS-V, and that car just like the regular one isn't taking any customers away from BMW. It's like night and day, the fit and finish...you name it.

People driving these cars just couldn't step up to the BMW.

Bowtiered

Probably not a wise comment on this board. If you're so concerned about your INTERIOR, what business have you on a board with regard to PERFORMANCE from the LSx ENGINES? Personally- i'd buy the GM any day if for no other reason than keeping american jobs. i do not buy hardly any foreign goods and will continue not to. also- GM- cheaper to buy, cheaper to fix, cheaper to own, cheaper to build. it's that simple.

if you want to go fast with a nice interior, buy a CTS-V and put a $45000 interior in it, just like your m5, now is your interior REALLY worth two LS1 Fbodies?

Arrogant

HA HA HA!! That's a good one. Foreign car companies continue to build new factories here in America, while GM continues to close factories and build them in other countries!!

Yeah, my nice Trans Am...product of Canada!
My Tundra...Made in INDIANA! Hmmmmm.....

And unless you have no TVs, VCRs, DVD players, coffee makers, microwaves, gym shoes, or nearly any other product, I HIGHLY doubt you buy no foreign products. And if you're an all American Wal-Mart shopper, you'll be happy to know they violate more free trade/slave labor laws than any other company.

Have a nice day.

steve_c

it's true... most of consumer goods these days are made in china... hell even stuff made in taiwan is now made in china since it costs too much in taiwan....

even italian shoes are made in china now... it though i would never see that day!

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Adam, your comments about cross shopping are in fact, just your opinion.

M3 owners are not in my opinion the cross shoppers.

I think the CTS-V's market are Corvette owners, aging pony car fans, M5 owners, and older folks who are brand loyal to GM.

Most if not all the M3 owners I see are 20/30 somethings, foreign, and not folks that I suspect would ever consider buying a GM product.

IMO, the core will be the guys in their 30's and 40's who can swing a $50K car and want something with power that also still has some practicality. The lack of AWD will not cross over with Audi owners.

Shinkaze

Of course they're my opinions

FWIW though I am someone cross-shopping the M3, CTS-V and S4, and while I am a 30-something I don't fit the above demographic. Maybe that makes me the exception... don't know.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

You are looking a a few 4dr cars and one 2dr sedan. Looks like it's just you.

Shinkaze

I want something _VERY_ sporty, luxurious, and on occaison will take along a couple of friends. I have a golden retriever and no kids, so 4-doors is a plus, but not a make or break issue. As I said earlier my Fiance has a Maxima, and we'll likely trade that in on a Toureggan, Farkentourg..grrr..however the heck you spell it.... so that will handle the utility side of things. I'll probably keep the TA around since it's paid off and worth more for me to keep it than what I would get if I sold it.

-Adam

eswolfgang

iTrader: (1)

Just because Japanese car makers build final assemblies here where does the money go, back to Japan, Also GM has been moving factories back to the US becasue they now have been able to restructure and reengineer thier facilites to make world class assembly lines, the new CTS plant is half the size of old plants yet has more output, That is why the Camaro, Firebird died, old outdated chassis and assembly plant. Japanese build cars here to get past tariffs and becasue the exchange rate gives them more profit. Just FYI the Honda Accord plant produces 115 defects per 100 cars, GM's Impala, Monte Carlo plant produces 84 defects per 100 cars, that is the best plant in the all of the Americas, GM overall rating is 122 defects per 100 cars and Honda/ Toyota are at 118 per 100 cars, Now with the Cobalt comming out, the new malibu and all the other new cars and the cavilier, blazer, going out the 122 will drop and I say in two years GM has the lowest defects for any car company. The perception of US quality being bad is just that perception, I have sat in new accords and BMW's and frankly the fit and finish are not any better than my CTS-V, Frankly in some aspects the CTS-V is better.

steve_c

FYI the impala, monte carlo are not even built in the U.S., they are built at the Oshawa plant in Ontario, Canada.

Sorry buddy, different country... doesn't count.

Bowtiered

my point is the money goes back to american companies. the AMERICAN economy. i didn't say i buy nothing foreign, or didn't mean to- i meant i limit myself