V2 Caliper on V1 How-to
03-24-2014, 07:37 AM
#61
Getting a scholastic point of view on the general workings of an automobile can be fascinating and I get the whole personality type as I was an engineering student until I figured out that I would have to work with engineers the rest of my life......but don't you get tired of the back and forth? I don't know when you have time to work on your car!
03-24-2014, 01:39 PM
#62
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
Based on my experience, I'm harder on brakes than most. I found the stock system to be lacking, which is why I've upgraded to the V2 setup. It has unquestionably made a difference on track. Based on today's experience I don't think 370mm Racing Brake rotors are going to be on my car anymore...
Originally Posted by AAIIIC
Based on today's experience I don't think 370mm Racing Brake rotors are going to be on my car anymore...
03-24-2014, 04:45 PM
#63
Track experience isn't necessary when there's a regular stream of PMs and emails in my inbox from people that own Brakemotive and Centric rotors and want advice on replacements after they warped on the street. Granted, a lot of them probably clamp down on the brakes at stop lights (Mistake #1), but I have yet to get an email asking about what the upgrade path from GS3500 rotors looks like. 
You cant give such advice without letting people be fully aware that you dont track your car nor do have practical experience with how various components might react.
So, on one hand, you have no problem with GS3000 rotors, but you failed out a set of RacingBrake rotors? Couple of leading questions: why do you think your rotors are so heavily scored in the center and glazed everywhere else? Have you noticed those abnormal pad deposits? Why do you think your anodized aluminum hats turned brown? Why are all of the tabs (well, the ones that are left anyway) broken on the side opposite the direction of rotation?
I think that the failure occurred due to a combination of two things: using a pad that's not compatible with the RacingBrake rotor alloy (as evidenced by those deposit rings) and stopping/parking the car without doing a cooldown lap or two (as evidenced by the EDP coating on the hats turning brown). The heat capacity of the ring is vastly greater than the aluminum hat, and without that critical cooling airflow, your hats were fried by the ring. At least you walked away from the incident. While I can't speak for RacingBrake, I think they'll take one look at your pictures and point you to the FAQ and say "you did exactly what we tell people not to do." That's why any service claim you place with them has to include your pad compound type.
I think that the failure occurred due to a combination of two things: using a pad that's not compatible with the RacingBrake rotor alloy (as evidenced by those deposit rings) and stopping/parking the car without doing a cooldown lap or two (as evidenced by the EDP coating on the hats turning brown). The heat capacity of the ring is vastly greater than the aluminum hat, and without that critical cooling airflow, your hats were fried by the ring. At least you walked away from the incident. While I can't speak for RacingBrake, I think they'll take one look at your pictures and point you to the FAQ and say "you did exactly what we tell people not to do." That's why any service claim you place with them has to include your pad compound type.
I will let him reply to this, but so far two people have had on track failures of racing brake products. Once again not saying anything negative about Warrens company ( if he still owns it anymore) but two people have tracked their stuff...both have had failures. I never had an issue with anything they ever built while being used on the street though, i will give them that.
03-24-2014, 06:06 PM
#64
yes, track experience is needed when discussing brake upgrades to a performance sedan which tends to get tracked often. I wouldnt listen to a vendor telling me they drive hard going to work in regards to brakes so why would anyone else get any different level of credibility.
You cant give such advice without letting people be fully aware that you dont track your car nor do have practical experience with how various components might react.
You cant give such advice without letting people be fully aware that you dont track your car nor do have practical experience with how various components might react.
03-24-2014, 06:20 PM
#65
If the perception is based on reality, it would be less infallible than grinding numbers IMHO because it all depends on who's grinding the numbers out. I know this is your first car but you will discover that you won't be able to explain all your challenges away with physics, thermodynamics and mathematics in general. It would require time and equipment that you more than likely don't have.
But I also don't know that I wouldn't necessarily take a racers word on what works on the street or vice versa....
But I also don't know that I wouldn't necessarily take a racers word on what works on the street or vice versa....
Last edited by ls1247; 03-24-2014 at 06:45 PM.
03-24-2014, 06:37 PM
#66
TECH Addict
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Where the Navy tells me to go
Posts: 2,397
Received 106 Likes
on
88 Posts
I'm curious what happened, too! It was at Summit Point, coming out of "the chute" into turn 5. I hit the brakes for turn 5, got a moment of braking, then heard a POP! and the car jerked to the left. I let off the brakes and went straight off into the grass, managing to bring the car to a stop before reaching the track by turn 7/8. (I probably could've stopped a little quicker, but I wasn't sure what had broken - something with the brakes, a control arm, ??? - so I was wary of giving too much input that might make the car do something unpredictable.) The second picture on this site shows the chute and turn 5 - my off track was basically coming right at the camera in that second pic.
The flagger waved me back onto the track, and I limped it through the last couple turns and into the pits. Didn't feel anything wrong with the steering or suspension, so I figured it was something brake related. Sure enough...
That is what I posted, yes. And I'm far from the only one to find that Centrics are a great, inexpensive option for track duty - they're pretty much the go-to recommendation on other forums I frequent. Like FWeasel said earlier, I couldn't care less what cast iron Centric uses or whether someone who has never used them on track thinks that they're inferior. The fact is that they work.
Because they're in contact with rotor rings that get really hot? Just spitballin' here.
Which way do you think the rotor was rotating, and in which direction do you think those holes in the tabs would have failed?
Not correct on either count.
Well, damn, I guess I should scrap my idea of making 2-piece rotors with aluminum rings and cast iron hats. 
One of my favorite parts of track events is sitting in the paddock, having parked my car without doing any cool-down (because I didn't learn about that at the first events I attended 14 years ago), and just watching my rotor hats turn colors.
I'll follow up on all this once I talk to Racing Brake.
The flagger waved me back onto the track, and I limped it through the last couple turns and into the pits. Didn't feel anything wrong with the steering or suspension, so I figured it was something brake related. Sure enough...
Because they're in contact with rotor rings that get really hot? Just spitballin' here.
Which way do you think the rotor was rotating, and in which direction do you think those holes in the tabs would have failed? I think that the failure occurred due to a combination of two things: using a pad that's not compatible with the RacingBrake rotor alloy (as evidenced by those deposit rings) and stopping/parking the car without doing a cooldown lap or two (as evidenced by the EDP coating on the hats turning brown).
I'll follow up on all this once I talk to Racing Brake.
03-25-2014, 11:45 AM
#68
If the perception is based on reality, it would be less infallible than grinding numbers IMHO because it all depends on who's grinding the numbers out. I know this is your first car but you will discover that you won't be able to explain all your challenges away with physics, thermodynamics and mathematics in general. It would require time and equipment that you more than likely don't have.
But I also don't know that I wouldn't necessarily take a racers word on what works on the street or vice versa....
But I also don't know that I wouldn't necessarily take a racers word on what works on the street or vice versa....
many sound principles fall off to thw way side once you get to a situation where in practice something doesnt work. and in practice is the final and most important factor here.
03-25-2014, 11:55 AM
#69
TECH Addict
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Where the Navy tells me to go
Posts: 2,397
Received 106 Likes
on
88 Posts
If I knew what happened I would say so, rather than saying, "I'm curious what happened, too!" I haven't found a smoking gun, and can't really think of any reason the failure occurred. What I do know is that neither of the things you attributed the failure to are true.
03-25-2014, 12:48 PM
#70
I don't believe you've given a good reason why what I said earlier could not true. Before I posted my questions, I knew that a big percentage of track guys would take offense from the "lack of cool down lap" question, but it doesn't make it an invalid question. I can only assume that your response indicates that you did perform a cool-down lap or laps.
Additionally, you have to ask yourself why RacingBrake would post warning upon warning about incompatible brake pad compounds unless they have had big problems with them in the past. I don't know, myself, but I'm curious because it limits my options. If you talk to them, would you mind asking them why pad deposits represent a threat to the health of the rotor? Is it because they create severe temperature differentials across the rotor face?
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 03-25-2014 at 01:06 PM.
03-25-2014, 07:26 PM
#71
TECH Addict
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Where the Navy tells me to go
Posts: 2,397
Received 106 Likes
on
88 Posts
After your post, I went looking for similar failures before I responded (research that was in addition to the research that led me to RB after someone on CF smoked those Coleman hats and 370mm rotors), but I could not find any examples of failed RB rotors or hats online.
If one does find the correct page in the "Product Knowledge" section, you find a poorly worded warning without enough specifics to be useful. "...be sure to use true racing pads in conjuntion [sic] with RB rotors: brands like Mintex, Raybestos, (Porterfield), Cobalt or Pagid. We have worked closely with Hawk to develop rotors that are compatible with these pads." Which "these" pads? Any of the Hawk compounds? Is Carbotech a brand "like" Mintex, Raybestos, etc? What about Carbonne-Lorraine, are they like those other brands? Performance Friction? Why is Porterfield in parentheses? If proper pad selection is so critical one would think they would actually put some definitive information (read: specific pad compounds to use) on that pad warning page rather than wording it the way they do.
03-25-2014, 07:29 PM
#72
That's a fair criticism. RacingBrake should have included those warnings on each product page, and included a link to a list of all tested pads (compatible and not). It wouldn't surprise me if the engineers wanted it included, and the sales/marketing guys had it taken off.
Because blown up brakes make for lots of repeated sales.
Because blown up brakes make for lots of repeated sales.
03-27-2014, 12:48 PM
#75
I would provide references, lest you inadvertently propagate FOD. You should also consider that the possibility that you're falling prey to reporting bias--because these rotors are most often purchased for track use by people that drive hard and want to drive harder, and they that they may have been driven to purchase these products because of previous hardware failures.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 03-27-2014 at 12:56 PM.
03-27-2014, 01:48 PM
#76
I would provide references, lest you inadvertently propagate FOD. You should also consider that the possibility that you're falling prey to reporting bias--because these rotors are most often purchased for track use by people that drive hard and want to drive harder, and they that they may have been driven to purchase these products because of previous hardware failures.
but im not falling prey to anything, since i have also had a track failure using their equipment. nothing wrong with wanting to drive a performance vehicle hard on track, thats what they are for.
03-27-2014, 01:58 PM
#77
On The Tree
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 179
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ooookay. So if previous companies products failed, and this has led people to buy RacingBrake products...and they then failed, why is it okay for RacingBrake to fail, but not say, Girodisc?
04-02-2014, 03:27 PM
#78
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
I noticed you used some kind of adapter on the girodisc brake lines or maybe you just grinded away that part of the boss? Could you post up a part number or picture of what kind of adapter you are using. It'll be good to have that information in this thread.
I'm finding my temporary "double washer" trick using the girodisc lines to clear the height of the caliper boss isn't a good solution as it doesn't provide a good "seal". I'm finding some seepage, no drips, but some moisture at that joint after putting a few miles on the new setup.
I'm finding my temporary "double washer" trick using the girodisc lines to clear the height of the caliper boss isn't a good solution as it doesn't provide a good "seal". I'm finding some seepage, no drips, but some moisture at that joint after putting a few miles on the new setup.
04-02-2014, 09:25 PM
#79
TECH Addict
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Where the Navy tells me to go
Posts: 2,397
Received 106 Likes
on
88 Posts
I just transferred the lines straight over from the V1 calipers and haven't had any issues. The fact that you recognize them as Girodisc lines puts you one up on me - I couldn't remember which they were. (Now that I think about it, I most likely got them from Luke, which means they're UUC, which means Girodisc.)
I need to put my summer wheels/tires on the car, probably Friday or this weekend, so I'll try to remember to snap some better pictures to show how mine are set up.
(Now that I think about it, I most likely got them from Luke, which means they're UUC, which means Girodisc.)I need to put my summer wheels/tires on the car, probably Friday or this weekend, so I'll try to remember to snap some better pictures to show how mine are set up.
04-08-2014, 07:49 PM
#80
TECH Addict
iTrader: (19)
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Where the Navy tells me to go
Posts: 2,397
Received 106 Likes
on
88 Posts
Here are a few more shots of the brake lines. Probably not really showing anything that the other pics didn't already show, but it's all I've got.
There is very little space between the 90deg fitting and the caliper, but if it is actually in contact it's light enough that I didn't feel I was forcing the thing to fit such that it would compromise the seal.
There is very little space between the 90deg fitting and the caliper, but if it is actually in contact it's light enough that I didn't feel I was forcing the thing to fit such that it would compromise the seal.