Shimming ls7 slave
05-01-2014, 01:46 PM
#61
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no you are wrong, the gm oem clutch is made by luk. Not sure why you keep spreading this false information saying luk isn't oem. Also not sure of what you don't understand that I bought both kits, sat them side by side looked at both pressure plates/clutch disks. They were identical from the numbers to where the weights were. Same with the clutch disk, even down to the same spring rattle. The "gm oem" were both stamped with luk. While true I didn't pull out a microscope to verify they were an "exact match" I don't believe luk is selling "gm seconds" or deliberately selling inferior parts.... tinfoil hats
Most parts are made for gm by ac delco, are you saying when I search by the ac delco number I am not getting an oem part because it comes in a different box?
Most parts are made for gm by ac delco, are you saying when I search by the ac delco number I am not getting an oem part because it comes in a different box?
05-01-2014, 02:03 PM
#62
My guess is that the variances are in the aftermarket parts being used in these various clutch setups. If the cars varied that much, they wouldn't be consistent off the showroom floor.
Combining parts from different manufacturers is always a scary proposition because you have no idea if their on the same page from an engineering perspective and you definitely can't depend on some vendor/sales guy to get it right.
And I doubt GM would let Luk sell completely identical to OE clutch packages on the aftermarket. And I also doubt Luk would take a chance at pissing off a client as big as GM and just sell identical to OE kits on ebay because they like us so much and we deserve OE quality at a lower price.....maybe they're selling GM seconds (you know they exist) but I bet if you break out the calipers and mics, you'll find a slight difference somewhere between the ebay Luk kits and the OE ones...could be wrong but I'm not willing to bet an afternoon flat on back pulling my transmission back out on it.
I've been dealing with aftermarket parts for 25 years....I'll always chose the factory option if there is one.
Combining parts from different manufacturers is always a scary proposition because you have no idea if their on the same page from an engineering perspective and you definitely can't depend on some vendor/sales guy to get it right.
And I doubt GM would let Luk sell completely identical to OE clutch packages on the aftermarket. And I also doubt Luk would take a chance at pissing off a client as big as GM and just sell identical to OE kits on ebay because they like us so much and we deserve OE quality at a lower price.....maybe they're selling GM seconds (you know they exist) but I bet if you break out the calipers and mics, you'll find a slight difference somewhere between the ebay Luk kits and the OE ones...could be wrong but I'm not willing to bet an afternoon flat on back pulling my transmission back out on it.
I've been dealing with aftermarket parts for 25 years....I'll always chose the factory option if there is one.
PS...I don't see the word inferior in here anywhere.
PSS...there are different grades of AC Delco parts these days and I'm careful about what I buy.
Last edited by ls1247; 05-01-2014 at 02:14 PM.
05-01-2014, 02:40 PM
#63
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I also doubt Luk would take a chance at pissing off a client as big as GM and just sell identical to OE kits on ebay because they like us so much and we deserve OE quality at a lower price.....maybe they're selling GM seconds
Posts exactly like yours which bring zero factual information is what is wrong with all the ls7 threads and why they are so hard to understand when someone is doing research.
Do you work for gm or something? You sound exactly like the master tech who said no don't take out your dualmass your car won't run right, the ls7 won't work or the same people who said a lightweight flywheel won't work on our cars because it is to light for good driveability. While all the real people who have actually installed the flywheel/clutches say it is great. I would go lighter than my 16lb ram based on what I learned/know now. So if you want to go with the "oem kit" because your head is telling you that is better than that is great but saying something is wrong with the lighter flywheels is def propaganda.
For every 1 thread with problems there are 20 with people who have no problems or problems that were user/car related. I think the theory of something is wrong with Wes setup/install/car is a little better than your tinfoil hat theory that luk is selling gm seconds or kits for a lower price which are not the same. Maybe something is wrong with the flywheel but that doesn't mean all the flywheels are bad.
As soon as he gets his problem figured out he will post back how awesome the clutch/flywheel are despite all the headaches thanking everyone who helped contribute. His V revving way faster thanks to the lighter flywheel
05-01-2014, 02:58 PM
#64
My guess is that the variances are in the aftermarket parts being used in these various clutch setups. If the cars varied that much, they wouldn't be consistent off the showroom floor.
Combining parts from different manufacturers is always a scary proposition because you have no idea if their on the same page from an engineering perspective and you definitely can't depend on some vendor/sales guy to get it right.
And I doubt GM would let Luk sell completely identical to OE clutch packages on the aftermarket. And I also doubt Luk would take a chance at pissing off a client as big as GM and just sell identical to OE kits on ebay because they like us so much and we deserve OE quality at a lower price.....maybe they're selling GM seconds (you know they exist) but I bet if you break out the calipers and mics, you'll find a slight difference somewhere between the ebay Luk kits and the OE ones...could be wrong but I'm not willing to bet an afternoon flat on back pulling my transmission back out on it.
I've been dealing with aftermarket parts for 25 years....I'll always chose the factory option if there is one.
Combining parts from different manufacturers is always a scary proposition because you have no idea if their on the same page from an engineering perspective and you definitely can't depend on some vendor/sales guy to get it right.
And I doubt GM would let Luk sell completely identical to OE clutch packages on the aftermarket. And I also doubt Luk would take a chance at pissing off a client as big as GM and just sell identical to OE kits on ebay because they like us so much and we deserve OE quality at a lower price.....maybe they're selling GM seconds (you know they exist) but I bet if you break out the calipers and mics, you'll find a slight difference somewhere between the ebay Luk kits and the OE ones...could be wrong but I'm not willing to bet an afternoon flat on back pulling my transmission back out on it.
I've been dealing with aftermarket parts for 25 years....I'll always chose the factory option if there is one.
I would like to remind you that MANY people have installed the "eBay" kit withOUT these issues. Blaming things solely on the parts is as reasonable as blaming things solely on variations on the car. And, as has already been stated by someone who physically held these 2 units side by side and compared them (albeit, in a cursory fashion) - It's LUK stuff, besides the flywheel, which is aftermarket. LUK is GM's manfacturer for this part, but they're NOT exclusive to GM. Just like TRW makes auto parts for Toyota, etc.. they also send those parts to NAPA stores, Autozones, and so on. Why would LUK not sell to Gripforce? That would be awfully bad business, unless they had an agreement of exclusivity with GM (which I have yet to see any evidence of).
Regardless, the combination of my guesses and your guesses as to why this is happening is worth just a little less than...well...nothing. It's just hyperbole.
Unfortunately my situation just "is what it is", and some of us have to be the unlucky ones to deal with being the 1 in a bunch that has issues with things that the majority have not.
05-01-2014, 03:26 PM
#65
Well I installed a ls7 clutch, ram aluminum flwheel, arp pressure plate and flywheel bolts, and ls7 slave a few months back. Break-in went smooth, except I could not go into reverse with the car running. It would lock me out of gear above 4500 rpms(no grind, just wouldn't slide into gear), and failed rev test.
I pulled the trans to measure and ended up with measurement A- 2 7/16 or 2.4375 and measurement B- 2 5/16 or 2.3125. I installed a (.113) shim from Tick, now everything is perfect. Shifting into reverse is as smooth as any other gear, and can shift at 6500. Maybe it was the aluminum flywheel that made me have to shim but I recommend checking measurements anyway since it only takes a few seconds. Hope no one else has this problem.
I pulled the trans to measure and ended up with measurement A- 2 7/16 or 2.4375 and measurement B- 2 5/16 or 2.3125. I installed a (.113) shim from Tick, now everything is perfect. Shifting into reverse is as smooth as any other gear, and can shift at 6500. Maybe it was the aluminum flywheel that made me have to shim but I recommend checking measurements anyway since it only takes a few seconds. Hope no one else has this problem.
05-01-2014, 04:32 PM
#66
There are automatic adjuster on the pressure plate that as the clutch breaks in or you put miles on it, they adjust and eventually bring the pedal to around stock height. When I was researching for my install I had read of people setting those adjuster springs prior to install and the pedal was immediately at normal height.. but was also told not to touch it.. this may or may not be true and am only telling what I was told.
05-01-2014, 04:46 PM
#67
The words maybe and probably are spread all over my post because we don't know.
What we seem to know is that every once in a while, people using a aftermarket clutch parts seem to be having problems with there setup seemingly around clutch shimming issues that revolve around .1 to .2mm of installed depth differences which nobody has been able to quantify one way or the other.
I submit that you two are the hard headed ones because neither of you have bothered to measure any of this stuff to figure out why some parts seem to work better than others and then blast me for making a judgement based on the evidence we do have. Without real world measurements and based on the successful experience others are having with OEM parts, it isn't hard to come to the conclusion that some parts work better than others...if you want to think that makes the aftermarket stuff inferior, that's your assessment. I'm just saying they appear to be slightly different at times. If anyone is having clutch shimming issues with all OE parts, we have yet to hear about it and I have asked repeatedly for reports of it.
If you have installed anywhere near as much aftermarket stuff as I have, you would know that aftermarket parts (in general, not always) aren't held to the same standards as factory parts, be it motorcycles, tractors, cars what have you. if I'm wrong, prove it to me.
I've also been working in the real world for many years and if Luk is the sole supplier of LS7 clutches (i believe you) for GM, do you think GM would let them sell these exact same parts on ebay for less money...no I don't think they would.
The purpose of all this is to help people, not only myself, steer clear of these issues and with the evidence we have to date, people running all OEM parts aren't having them.
What we seem to know is that every once in a while, people using a aftermarket clutch parts seem to be having problems with there setup seemingly around clutch shimming issues that revolve around .1 to .2mm of installed depth differences which nobody has been able to quantify one way or the other.
I submit that you two are the hard headed ones because neither of you have bothered to measure any of this stuff to figure out why some parts seem to work better than others and then blast me for making a judgement based on the evidence we do have. Without real world measurements and based on the successful experience others are having with OEM parts, it isn't hard to come to the conclusion that some parts work better than others...if you want to think that makes the aftermarket stuff inferior, that's your assessment. I'm just saying they appear to be slightly different at times. If anyone is having clutch shimming issues with all OE parts, we have yet to hear about it and I have asked repeatedly for reports of it.
If you have installed anywhere near as much aftermarket stuff as I have, you would know that aftermarket parts (in general, not always) aren't held to the same standards as factory parts, be it motorcycles, tractors, cars what have you. if I'm wrong, prove it to me.
I've also been working in the real world for many years and if Luk is the sole supplier of LS7 clutches (i believe you) for GM, do you think GM would let them sell these exact same parts on ebay for less money...no I don't think they would.
The purpose of all this is to help people, not only myself, steer clear of these issues and with the evidence we have to date, people running all OEM parts aren't having them.
05-01-2014, 05:01 PM
#68
ls1247...you may be missing a crucial part about the LUK clutches... LUK doesnt strictly contract to only sell clutch assemblies to GM.. GM is a customer ordering LUK parts to use as their OEM components.. So other companies are buying the same components.. and selling these components. There is no difference in the clutches sold to GM as LS7 units or sold to other suppliers.
The same parts are had cheaper elsewhere because they are not incurring the same GM markup.
The same parts are had cheaper elsewhere because they are not incurring the same GM markup.
05-01-2014, 05:10 PM
#69
I get that they make clutches for all sorts of applications and you could be right but....GM designed these parts which, in my mind, would make them proprietary to some extent. If I was GM, I wouldn't let Luk build and sell the exact same parts I designed on ebay.
I followed the link for the FX stage 1 kit as supplied earlier in this thread and its saying the clutch application is for the ls2, ls3 and ls7 Corvettes. Are all these clutches the same?
I followed the link for the FX stage 1 kit as supplied earlier in this thread and its saying the clutch application is for the ls2, ls3 and ls7 Corvettes. Are all these clutches the same?
Last edited by ls1247; 05-01-2014 at 05:26 PM.
05-01-2014, 05:38 PM
#70
I don't mean to be offensive, but I can't think of any other way to say this.... You're either as thick as a brick, or you're as stuck in your ways as the Clipper's coach, Donald Sterling. It's useless to try to have a conversation about this with someone like you because you'll just keep defending your opinion rather than take an impartial look at things.
I rest my case....
There are automatic adjuster on the pressure plate that as the clutch breaks in or you put miles on it, they adjust and eventually bring the pedal to around stock height. When I was researching for my install I had read of people setting those adjuster springs prior to install and the pedal was immediately at normal height.. but was also told not to touch it.. this may or may not be true and am only telling what I was told.
ls1247...you may be missing a crucial part about the LUK clutches... LUK doesnt strictly contract to only sell clutch assemblies to GM.. GM is a customer ordering LUK parts to use as their OEM components.. So other companies are buying the same components.. and selling these components. There is no difference in the clutches sold to GM as LS7 units or sold to other suppliers.
The same parts are had cheaper elsewhere because they are not incurring the same GM markup.
The same parts are had cheaper elsewhere because they are not incurring the same GM markup.
Last edited by wes8398; 05-01-2014 at 05:45 PM.
05-01-2014, 06:17 PM
#73
Yup, I'm having issues with "aftermarket" parts. Just like you *might* have issues with a "GM" kit. NONE of this stuff - including your GM stuff - is made to put into a CTS-V. I wish you luck with your purchase/install. My last suggestion to you would be to spend the $40 on Tick's shim kit...JUST IN CASE you need it. It's just as possible that you will need it as it was that I was going to need it...
05-02-2014, 06:53 PM
#77
Back to the purpose of this thread... here's a bit of an expansion/follow-up from the OP. It's part of a PM from him to me, and I got his permission to post it here for the use of anyone searching these threads in the future. I had asked him about how is clutch pedal felt (where the engagement point was) when he was having the issues he described in the OP. Here was his response...
Originally Posted by sonicblue
Hey buddy, not a problem at all. Before the shim my clutch pedal felt perfect/stock, normal driving was great. So I thought all was well. The car WOULD NOT go into reverse if I was sitting still, not even after trying other gears first.
when doing the rev test, it was consistently right around 4500 when the car would move, and about the same when full throttle as in it wouldn't let me shift
Because I had read so much about NOT SHIMMING the slave I picked up another ls7 pressure plate(I had installed a ls7 flywheel and pressure plate a year prior in my ws6 with 0 issues) I also read there use to be a lot of issues with ls7 pressure plates.
Swapped the pressure plates(48 ft lbs with ARPs) had the same results. So I picked up shims, when I measured and came up with my results being within spec, I knew I still had a problem so I shimmed the slave as close as I could without going over. When I finished I started the car out of gear, pushed it over and it slid in like 1st gear does.
The crazy part is after the shim my pedal didn't get any higher but still feels like stock, I haven't been happier and I don't have to start the car in reverse anymore lol sorry this was so long just wanted to give you what all I went through. Anymore questions feel free to ask. Good luck
when doing the rev test, it was consistently right around 4500 when the car would move, and about the same when full throttle as in it wouldn't let me shift
Because I had read so much about NOT SHIMMING the slave I picked up another ls7 pressure plate(I had installed a ls7 flywheel and pressure plate a year prior in my ws6 with 0 issues) I also read there use to be a lot of issues with ls7 pressure plates.
Swapped the pressure plates(48 ft lbs with ARPs) had the same results. So I picked up shims, when I measured and came up with my results being within spec, I knew I still had a problem so I shimmed the slave as close as I could without going over. When I finished I started the car out of gear, pushed it over and it slid in like 1st gear does.
The crazy part is after the shim my pedal didn't get any higher but still feels like stock, I haven't been happier and I don't have to start the car in reverse anymore lol sorry this was so long just wanted to give you what all I went through. Anymore questions feel free to ask. Good luck
05-06-2014, 04:08 PM
#78
FWIW, I picked up my car this morning with the OEM LS7 setup installed and my only initial complaint is a small vibration between 2-3K RPM. I haven't had enough seat time to know if its just a clutch imbalance that some have spoken of or a result of a new (used) drive shaft that was also installed. As everyone else has reported in the past, the pedal grabs low to the floor, pressure is the same as OEM, and the revs rise and fall quicker. I did grind 3rd twice, but I attribute that to learning the new engagement point and not having driven the car for 3.5 weeks. All other gears engage smoothly.
05-06-2014, 06:40 PM
#79
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Awesome! thanks for the PM post. That sums it up. I agree when I buy my LS7 (I have everything but the clutch kit) I will be buying a tick shim kit, if I dont use it great...but If I am laying under the car all torn apart I might as well measure the slave clutch to see if I need it.
Hope it all goes well, someday...Got some other projects tying up my money at the moment.
Hope it all goes well, someday...Got some other projects tying up my money at the moment.
05-07-2014, 10:41 PM
#80
Awesome! thanks for the PM post. That sums it up. I agree when I buy my LS7 (I have everything but the clutch kit) I will be buying a tick shim kit, if I dont use it great...but If I am laying under the car all torn apart I might as well measure the slave clutch to see if I need it.
Hope it all goes well, someday...Got some other projects tying up my money at the moment.
Hope it all goes well, someday...Got some other projects tying up my money at the moment.
Very good plan! I think Tick would accept a return if you didn't open/use the shim(s) too. It's just good insurance since this need to shim has come to light (for some of us).
Last edited by wes8398; 05-07-2014 at 10:56 PM.