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Let me know how that works out, I have polished and dremmeled a channel, still not luck getting grease in between the flange and the washer. Also, you can make that sounds happen by jacking that wheel up and down slowly. The whole bushing rotates with the arm so it should be filled to where the flange slides on the washer, when it dries up, that is where your get that popping noise. As for the grease coming out, mine sometime do and dont do that, I jack that wheel up, pump grease, lower it and pump more grease.
Will do. I'll update this thread as I get this resolved. If the new design from CS combined with the CV-2 grease doesn't fix it, I will copy AAIIIC with revshifts, sanding, and zerks. I will definitely get this fixed somehow- my 15k miles a year need to be free of popping for my sanity. I'm really hoping the revised CS units will do the trick.
the Redline CV grease made a big difference for me, it just took some time to try and work it in, I am curious about the new design, they mentioned it earlier, hope we can get some discount
By the way, 75D bushings are custom order products and Revshift has not been given any feedback on fitment (at least, I haven't made the time to write them yet). On my car, no sanding was required but I did think the shoulder height should've been reduced by a couple hundredths. The dimensions are based on their 95A durometer bushings, since they sold their V1 and no longer have a test platform to verify fitment with.
For control arm bushings, the metal core needs to be a precise length relative to the shoulder to permit rotation of the control arm and prevent side-to-side movement. The shoulder height must be varied slightly (several hundredths of an inch) based on the relative squishiness of the polyurethane. The Creative Steel design reflects a lack of understanding of how polyurethane control arm bushings operate--that's what you get for copying others' and then trying to innovate. I think that AAIIIC might have shot himself in the foot a little by sanding the ends of the metal sleeve down.
You need two full-sized flanges on either side of the bushing to support the control arm during acceleration and braking. The steering tie rods only pin the rotation of the spindle--without the lower control arm, the wheel would fly forwards and backwards during braking and acceleration, respectively. Therefore the control arm bushings undergo a lot of cantilever stress. Also, grease goes between the metal core and the polyurethane sleeves ONLY. The polyurethane is press-fit into the control arm and the metal core is pinned by the subframe mounts. The polyurethane portion of the bushings rotate around the core in sync with the control arm. Doing it the other way is a recipe for popping sounds and/or breakage, particularly if the bushing swells due to chemical instability.
In the Revshift bushings, there is a very small gap between the bushing halves which allows grease to be pumped in through the control arm. This is a time-honored technique used by many teams. The reason why the grease goes where it should (i.e. between the metal core and the polyurethane sleeve) is because the polyurethane is press-fit into the control arm. The grease finds the path of least resistance between the polyurethane halves and travels between the metal core and the ID of the polyurethane sleeves until it squirts out the sides. That's how you know when you're done greasing.
Last edited by FuzzyLog1c; 04-17-2017 at 01:40 AM.
The Creative Steel design reflects a lack of understanding of how polyurethane control arm bushings operate--that's what you get for copying others' and then trying to innovate.
Fuzzy, for the final time, can you show everyone what, exactly, I have copied? None of our products resemble your beloved Revshift products. Not only that, but most of their designs I don't agree with in an engineering standpoint anyway (AKA Engine mounts).
But if you're such the wiz in suspension design, then why does it seem like everytime you talk about our products, you have no clue what they even look like? The bushings are designed to stop braking and accelerating force. That is why the flanges are on the opposite sides of the control arm (also the only side of the arm that is a machined surface.) Revshift is trying to make a *precision* bushing fit on a cast surface; brilliant. If you do not remember, revshifts control arm bushings were the only ones to EVER bind. Then they stated that they ALL bind, but they came up with some magic snake oil to cure the problem (AKA make the metal insert the correct length.) You have no idea how our products work and you dream up ways to belittle our products.
Congratulations, because of you we are the only V1/V2 suspension vendor on any of the forums. You should be able to find our address on our website, whenever you're ready to stop being THAT guy.
I think that AAIIIC might have shot himself in the foot a little by sanding the ends of the metal sleeve down.
I didn't touch the sleeves, their length was just fine.
Originally Posted by AAIIIC
I also used a belt sander and palm sander to reduce the thickness of the Revshift bushing flanges. They were too thick, so they would've generated all sorts of unnecessary binding against the mounts.
I only shaved down the flanges, not the sleeves.
Originally Posted by FuzzyLog1c
You need two full-sized flanges on either side of the bushing to support the control arm during acceleration and braking. The steering tie rods only pin the rotation of the spindle--without the lower control arm, the wheel would fly forwards and backwards during braking and acceleration, respectively.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're trying to say, but the upper and lower control arms constrain the rotation of the spindle; the steering tie rods aren't there for that. And the wheel/tire moves rearward under braking, not forward. The wheel/tire shouldn't move much at all under acceleration, other than due to its own inertia.
How much did those Delrins cost and how many miles have you put down on them? I always thought they were to stiff to use for an application like that
Not if you don't care about road noise. Junior-1 is running a stripped down lightweight V1 with no interior. It's a track monster designed to do a couple of things well and cabin noise reduction is not one of them.
I fondly remember my first and only experience with Delrin and HMWPE. I ordered a full set for the IRS on my old Cobra and of course when the package came in I couldn't wait to tear in. One of the largest bits fell out on the tile floor of my kitchen and it bounced sky high and then proceeded to bounce all the way out the door like an old Coke bottle. I think that was one of the black/HMWP pieces but the Delrin wasn't far behind. That stuff will definitely keep the wheels where they are intended to be.
The sales pitch for the Cobra was that it actually made the IRS work better and therefore really didn't make for an unbearable ride. I ended up selling the car immediately after(unfortunate mistake for sure) so didn't get to experience it. How is it on the front end? Would it be altogether regrettable on the street if not a DD? Do you run the same on the rear?
What you called Delrin is the registered marketing name of DuPont, the real name of that product is POM or in my case called Hostaform!
So there is one big trouble on POM, the same like nylon, which can also be used on that application, it has no correction of accruals, so you have a sideload in different angle then exactly 90° during a long time, it will still stay in this deformed position which creates more play in the bushing to the metal sleeve in it, POM has no rubber in it like Poly, which works against deforming and correction of accruals, the same in nylon!
I would suggest POM or Nylon only on real racecars, parts like these are intend to change more then one time in their lifetime, you always have to throw an eye on play between sleeve and bushing and then change it, if needed!
This statement comes from a assistant of the world leader in POM production, i have 25yrs experience in this product, i have every mixture from POM on my lathe and many more other type's of plastic, i'm a child of the plastic industries...
If someone is interested in a set of POM bushings, i can make that for you, no problem...
Here's a photo taken looking up and toward the back of the car (the rearmost mount of the LCA). I circled the gap in red. This is about 1/16 or less, but I saw it get bigger when the steering wheel was being actively turned. This is where it settled at full lock.
The popping is more like a stick/slip in the bushing. It's not wear- the bushings were installed in September and it started doing it within a few weeks. I thought it was steering/tie-rods/etc., but two different shops diagnosed it as the bushings. I didn't bias them- I just said I have a popping noise while steering, please take a look. They both called me out to take a look and you can tell the popping is coming from the bushings. You can feel it if you put your hand on the LCA by the bushing, too.
It also goes away every time it rains, because the water gets in there and acts as a lube. Once the roads dry up, popping returns. I can't even get it to hold grease- it just takes the path of least resistance, i.e., straight out the end with no flange. You can see in the photo where it comes straight out. I figure at least the revshifts will have the other flange to provide some protection from water ingress and also some pressure resistance to force the grease to fill the gaps instead of running straight out.
After the recent rain we've had and a longer grease interval (can't seem to find mini-tubes with synthetic grease at the auto part stores I've checked), mine are now popping pretty badly too.
That stinks. I was hoping I might be the only one. If yours are like mine, they'll actually sound fine while it's raining, but once it dries up, it's pop city. Maybe it's just bushings in the Atlanta area... LOL.
I have a new set with grease channels ready to install. Looks like it should do the trick. I'll report back once I get them installed, but it will probably be a few weeks due to work and other crap on my calendar.
For the grease, amazon has a lot of options, including redline and the superlube.
Just the thread I was looking for. Just pulled my LCAs to solve the squeaking issue. Installed the full CS set probably 6k back, been making noise ever since. Pumped a ton of grease in to them but it hasn't shut up. Upon removing the aluminum pivots, it looks like the interface is too tight to allow the grease to flow around it, was able to slide them in but had to pound them out just now. The thrust face seemed to be where most of the noise was coming from, and was bone dry. The channels in the poly thrust face were also completely dry. It looks like the only grease still on the pivots was what I applied at assembly and had burned up in spots. Surface finish on the pivots could be a bit better, somewhat resembles a record, but they've been a joy to drive on compared to the stockers.
My current thought on a countermeasure would be to clean them up first then drill and chamfer 2 small holes equally spaced from the existing hole then mill some longitudinal channels down the length of the pivot to help spread and capture the grease. Will also try to open up the corners of the grooves on the thrust face of the poly to make it easier for the grease to turn the corner and lube the thrust surface.
I'm on the same way like you, have an idea and seen something like that, will make a drawing these days and post it here, we will find a solution, for sure!
Pumped a ton of grease in to them but it hasn't shut up.
I've done the same and they're still popping like mad. It's embarrassing. I'm considering just swapping in a stock replacement pair of lower control arms and wiping my hands (literally) of the issue.
04-15-2017, 03:35 PM
