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The Single Plane/Carbureted LS Engine Camshaft Thread

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Old 08-20-2014, 01:44 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Zmg00camaross View Post
Probably the best post in YEARS here on tech! Can't wait to go super Vic.
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Originally Posted by My6speedZ View Post
Fantastic thread Tigger. Great job on collecting and organizing this information. It will help many people, get a better grasp on what these numbers and figures mean when rattling them off in a tech thread, plus it is always good to throw some love in the carb intake direction for the single plane guys.
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Originally Posted by mOtOrHeAd MiKe View Post
Thanks to all involved for taking the time to put some actual tech back into this site!

It was great to read about cam and intake theory without "pet name" cams or eleventybillion millimeter multi-piece composite intakes (and the associated heat soak debate).

Is there any consideration going to be given to the differences in cylinder filling as it relates to a wet manifold vs. a port injected version, and cam design/characteristics?
Thanx guys. It continues to be a work in progress. I hope to have Martin and Jason's Q & As up soon.

Mike, as far as cam considerations in regards to method of fuel delivery, I have not personally seen any testing on this. If you have resources on that topic, please do share them.

For, the most part, all of the conversations I have had were more about cross sectional area, runner length and air/fuel charge mass. I could certainly see how introducing fuel into the mix sooner, as a carburetor does, would affect air/fuel charge mass.
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Old 08-20-2014, 02:31 PM   #22
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Default Some Wisdom From The Top LS Cam Gurus - Martin Smallwood

Q & A with Martin Smallwood of Tick Performance
Question: How did you get into LS powered cars?
Martin: LS engines in general have always intrigued me. Their capability to produce 500-600 flywheel HP N/A with relative ease and reliability is a testament to what GM was able to do with the LS family of engines.

Question: When did you get hooked on drag racing?
Martin: I've been hooked on drag racing ever since the first time I was taken to a race track by my Dad. He raced for years himself and his interest and time in the sport rubbed off on me from the time I was probably 6 years old.

Question: You have gained a tremendous amount of knowledge about racing and LS engines in a very short period of time. How have you learned so much so fast?
Martin: I have just tried to become a sponge to my surroundings. Working at Tick Performance is the biggest reason I have learned so much in such a short amount of time. I like to think of myself as a quick study. Being able to visualize exactly what is occurring inside of a running engine is one thing I feel I am very good at. Also, asking questions to the right people has helped tremendously as well. The other names you have me mentioned with in this thread are very humbling. The amount of experience they have reminds me just how much further I have to go in comparison to what they have accomplished

Question: You are consistently one of the most helpful people in the LS community.
What drives you to help others with their builds?
Martin: I think the main thing that drives me to help others with their builds is the help I've received myself. I've had help with not only my latest personal build, but a lot of what I have gained regarding my own knowledge can be attributed to other's in the industry taking the time to teach me and help me. I personally get a feeling of accomplishment knowing that someone is better informed about what they're buying for their engine after speaking with me even if he doesn't purchase a single part at that time. There's nothing wrong with paying it forward that's for sure.

Question: You have taken a particular interest in Carbureted and Single Plane LS combinations.
What is it about these combos that pique your interest?
Martin: I really enjoy working with single plane LS combinations. I felt like for a while single plane manifolds got a bad rap and to some extent they still do. Some people on the forums would say, "Single plane manifolds are only good for high RPM". I've personally had great results with single plane intakes in combinations that weren't 7000+ RPM screamers. I often recommend single plane manifolds to a lot of my more serious street/strip customers or those who are serious about N/A or nitrous performance. I'm also a big fan of the Holley High Ram. I think it has huge potential in the right hands. There is no magic intake manifold or camshaft by itself. It is about putting together the right combination for your intended application.

Question: What do you think is the most common mistake people make when building a single plane or short runner equipped LS engine?
Martin: Using off the shelf camshafts designed for the factory style EFI manifolds. Typically the person says, "This camshaft will work well enough". People assume that the camshaft profiles between two categories of fuel delivery methods (EFI vs. Carbureted) and two categories of intake manifold design (long runner vs. short runner) are identical. Unfortunately for them, I would say that 75% or greater of the more popular, readily available, off the shelf EFI camshafts have an intake valve close event that is at least 43-45*@.050 ABDC some even later. For the average stock bottom end combination that is utilizing a single plane intake manifold, a 43-45*@.050 ABDC closing event is much too late for their intended RPM range. In addition, an earlier intake valve opening event and a later exhaust valve closing event, results in added valve overlap which helps a short runner engine. This added overlap is not needed in long runner EFI manifolds and may be detrimental. That is why an off the shelf EFI camshaft does not allow the single plane intake manifold combination to perform to its highest potential.

Question: There is a lot of talk about custom cam lobe selection. How do you determine which lobe is appropriate for a particular engine combo?
Martin: The main thing I look at is the weight of the valve train, the operating range of the engine and intended use. First I will look at the rocker arms the customer is utilizing, the material the valves are made out of and their corresponding weights, stock OEM lifters or aftermarket and the operating range of the engine. Finally, I look at how the customer uses their car. Take for example a customer who drives his car thousands of miles per year versus an application that might see a maximum of 1k miles a year. The lower mileage, race application might best utilize a more aggressive lobe, while the heavily street driven combo might appreciate a less aggressive lobe

Question: You have been a very vocal advocate about evaluating camshafts based on the valve events as opposed to duration and lobe centers. Why should a racer care about this?
Martin: Great question. A racer should care about the actual valve events of their camshaft so that they can truly understand what is going on inside their engine. We've all been told by our elders for our entire lives, "You can't judge a book by its cover," and that is 100% true when it comes to camshafts. While two camshafts may appear to be very similar to one another, they might have very different valve events. When you look at when the intake valve opens (IVO), when the intake valve closes (IVC), when the exhaust valve opens (EVO) and when the exhaust valve closes (EVC), you are looking at the actual valve events. With this you can visualize what effect each event has on the performance of an engine. ICL, LSA and durations are just mathematical interpretations of these event’s relationships to one another. Comparing camshaft valve events can at least allow one to determine how close the cams truly are to one another or just how different they really are.

Question: There are a lot of differences between the LS3/L92 square port heads and the LS1/LS6/LS2 cathedral port heads. How do you change the cam design to accommodate for this in a given engine combo?
Martin: The main thing about a LS3/L92 square port head versus a LS1/LS6/LS2 cathedral port head is the difference in intake port cross sectional area between the two cylinder heads and the difference in valve area. The minimum cross sectional area of a LS3 head is roughly 2.78 in^2. The minimum cross sectional area of a LS1 head is roughly 2.32 in^2. The main thing I do with square port camshafts is close the intake valve earlier due to the head having a larger intake port MCSA. With a cathedral port camshaft I will close the intake valve later due to the head having a smaller MCSA. The other main difference between a square port head and a cathedral port head is the intake to exhaust flow percentage. The larger intake valve and larger intake port of the square port head is able to flow more CFM than a cathedral port head. More air and fuel into the cylinder means there will be more spent exhaust gas created as a byproduct. This means I need to open the exhaust valve sooner in relation to my intake events to give more time for that added spent exhaust gas to evacuate the cylinder. This always necessitates a wider intake to exhaust duration split in the camshaft profile.

Question: The LS community seems to be particularly willing to push piston to valve clearance. How close will you push it? And, do you think some cam lobes are better than others if one is pushing piston-to-valve clearance to the edge?
Martin: When it comes to piston to valve clearance I like to see at least .050"/.100". I've personally run my own engine at .030" intake clearance and .050" exhaust clearance. That engine never gave me a bit of trouble, but that still doesn't mean that everyone should do it. We've measured our Polluter cam to have between .045"-.050" intake clearance and to my knowledge have not had a customer hurt something because of it. Whenever I sell a customer a cam that will be that tight on P to V I fully disclose the clearance it will most likely have and what could happen in a worst case scenario. This discourages a lot of people, but still some choose to go forward with it. Some customers, after hearing what could happen, end up fly cutting valve reliefs. I will say, fly cutting pistons with a single plane combination opens up the doors tremendously to allowing a cam with the proper timing events for the combination.

As far as some cam lobes in relation to P to V, yes there are. A cam lobe that has less tappet [email protected] will have more P to V at TDC when P to V is tightest. If you can reduce the amount of lift the lobe has while the piston is at top dead center you will increase the amount of P to V available.
Bio:
Martin Smallwood is the camshaft specialist at Tick Performance and an avid racer. Martin designed the new Tick Elite Series of camshafts and is known throughout the community as a rising star in the custom camshaft industry. Martin has been lauded by racers and street performance enthusiasts alike for his impressive performing, carefully crafted, custom camshaft designs.

Martin Smallwood
Tick Performance
179 Thunder Rd
Mount Airy NC
27030-2545
336-719-0599

Last edited by speedtigger; 08-20-2014 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 08-26-2014, 01:38 PM   #23
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This post is will be reserved to adding good camshaft tech resources and thread links. I will add them as I remember them or find them. If you have any, post them up.

Piston to Valve Clearance:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/7518342-post12.html
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...8&postcount=44

Exhaust Lift and Duration Testing for Maximum Performance:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/17732454-post15.html

Camshaft Design and Valve Timing for Single Plane Intake Equipped LS Engines:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...4&postcount=12
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...8&postcount=23
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...2&postcount=32
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...4&postcount=48
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/sh...2&postcount=54

An interesting conversation about Lobe Center Angle:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generatio...nt-matter.html

Here is an old thread the Bozzhawg shared. It is not single plane or carbed LS specific, but it has a lot of great, high level cam tech and conversation with some big names like Ed Curtis, Geoff Skinner, Brett Bauer and more:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/advanced-...part-ii-6.html

Last edited by speedtigger; 09-05-2014 at 07:23 AM.
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Old 08-26-2014, 02:28 PM   #24
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What about info like where to get the odd and end things. How to hook stock lines it new rails and thistle cable and brackets.
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Old 08-26-2014, 05:40 PM   #25
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Zach, I have a complete parts list that someone on LS1tech gave me. I have it in an e-mail at work. Tomorrow I will e-mail it to you. I would have today, but got busy this afternoon and didn't have time to search for it. I'll get it to you tomorrow morning though.
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:11 PM   #26
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Thank you much appreciated
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Old 08-28-2014, 09:12 PM   #27
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Useful LS Engine References (under construction - more to come)

Compression Ratio of Various Combos

LQ4: 9.41:1 - milled .020" = 9.74:1
LQ4 with LS6 heads = 10.14:1 - milled .020" = 10.53:1
LQ9: 10.04:1 - milled .020" = 10.42
LQ9 with LS6 heads: 10.88:1 - milled .020" = 11.34:1
LQ4 with 821/823 heads: 9.72:1 - milled .020" = 10.07
LQ9 with 823/824 heads: 10.38:1 - milled .020" = 10.80:1

LY6 9.6:1 - milled .020" = 9.95:1
L92 10.5:1 - milled .020" 10.91:1

each .006" milled = 1cc combustion chamber space is the often quoted equation.


Various Cylinder Head Combustion Chamber Size:

317(lq4/lq9) casting: 71.06cc
243/799(ls6/ls2/l33) casting: 64cc
823/821 (ls3/l92/ly6) casting: 68cc
862/706 (5.3 lm4/lm7) casting: 61.15cc
*Reference link: http://juicedmotorsports.com/techinfo_LSX_heads.html

Measured Valve Drop Statistics

#317 head casting used cores measured valve drop - head only = .160" intake / .170" exhaust measured by SpeedTigger.
#799 head casting PRC CNC LS6 measured valve drop assembled on a stock LQ9 engine .194" intake / .204" exhaust measured by SpeedTigger.

Last edited by speedtigger; 12-24-2014 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 08-29-2014, 12:24 AM   #28
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823 chamber milled 100thou is 58cc
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Old 08-31-2014, 11:54 AM   #29
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I would like to see some back to back dyno graphs (EFI cam vs single plane grind) with the super vic.
Also would like to see the area under the curve (shift recovery) in a 346" combo with a super vic. (because know body gives a rats *** about peak numbers...lol.)

Great thread, thanks for taking the time.
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Old 08-31-2014, 02:16 PM   #30
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A customer of mine made a thread a while back about his experiences and results switching from a Fast 102 to a Super Victor.

I do not remember the name of the thread though!
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Old 08-31-2014, 09:13 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
A customer of mine made a thread a while back about his experiences and results switching from a Fast 102 to a Super Victor.

I do not remember the name of the thread though!

Do you remember what section Martin ?

.
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Old 12-24-2014, 03:10 PM   #33
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One of the resources that I am trying to accumulate for Tech members use is measured valve drop numbers for various head castings and assembled engines. This is very useful for guys who are trying to determine "how big of a cam will fit". I will be adding everyone's input to post #27 as a reference.

Today I measured a set of used stock #317 truck heads. The intake valve drop was .160" and the exhaust was .#170".

If you get an opportunity to measure valve drop on heads or assembled engines, please share your findings with the community. You could help out other members and cam makers know what type of clearance they have to work with.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:13 AM   #34
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Default Looking for cam advice for drift carbureted LS

Hello,
I just found this post. very interesting post. I currently have a drift car with an L76 Australian engine, which is something as an LS2 with LS3 heads and DOD, which is not active. the same engine can be found on Pontiac G8, I think. My car is stock engine, with a Victor Jr intake and demon 850 carb. The car is M6, and 3.90 rear end ratio. it is a BMW E30 of about 1 000 kg. As I have to get the engine out, I'm thinking to do a cam change at same time, and I'm worrying about the cam to choose. The engine must stay smooth for drifting operations and not been too brutal. I would appreciate your opinion for a best combo and know how much HP I should gain from it. I have a dyno sheet of my car as it is, if needed.

regards
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Old 09-02-2015, 02:44 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sporty-X View Post
Hello,
I just found this post. very interesting post. I currently have a drift car with an L76 Australian engine, which is something as an LS2 with LS3 heads and DOD, which is not active. the same engine can be found on Pontiac G8, I think. My car is stock engine, with a Victor Jr intake and demon 850 carb. The car is M6, and 3.90 rear end ratio. it is a BMW E30 of about 1 000 kg. As I have to get the engine out, I'm thinking to do a cam change at same time, and I'm worrying about the cam to choose. The engine must stay smooth for drifting operations and not been too brutal. I would appreciate your opinion for a best combo and know how much HP I should gain from it. I have a dyno sheet of my car as it is, if needed.

regards
Sorry I missed this post. For what you are doing I would use this grind: 228/240 112+4. You can order this cam from Cam Motion under grind number XA228/365-XA240/350-12+4. This cam should pick you up 30-40 HP and have excellent power everywhere in the powerband. Order yourself some good double springs adn hardened pushrods when you order too.
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Old 09-02-2015, 02:48 PM   #36
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Here is a really sweet camshaft valve event calculator you can download for free. I thought it would be a perfect addition to this thread:

http://www.cammotion.com/cam-timer.php
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Old 09-22-2015, 04:47 PM   #37
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Here is another handy one for you all. It is a static & dynamic compression calculator. Like the Cam Motion Cam Timer, it is quick and easy to use, allows you to update any field (except for the calculated compression ratios) and you can have multiple instances open at once, which can be very handy when comparing different compression or camshaft scenarios. Check it out!

http://www.cammotion.com/engine-calculators.php

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Old 11-04-2015, 10:59 AM   #38
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Default LS jet boat motor cam

I need a better cam for my 416 c.I.LS. it has 243 heads, Vic Jr, 1050 carb, .036 quench. It needs to make all its power between 4000 and 6000 rpm. No concern about idle quality or high rpm. It also has NOS. It will need about 800 HP to see 6000 rpm. Not much load on motor below 4000. Currently running a comp grind #13158r\13045r HR113. 605\598lift,226\231@.050 installed +2 with +4 ground in from comp. I inherited this cam in a turbo 6.0 where it was pretty good but now its in my NA stroker. I'm thinking I need tighter lobe centers and more duration. Help?
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Old 11-04-2015, 01:41 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by OkieDave View Post
I need a better cam for my 416 c.I.LS. it has 243 heads, Vic Jr, 1050 carb, .036 quench. It needs to make all its power between 4000 and 6000 rpm. No concern about idle quality or high rpm. It also has NOS. It will need about 800 HP to see 6000 rpm. Not much load on motor below 4000. Currently running a comp grind #13158r\13045r HR113. 605\598lift,226\231@.050 installed +2 with +4 ground in from comp. I inherited this cam in a turbo 6.0 where it was pretty good but now its in my NA stroker. I'm thinking I need tighter lobe centers and more duration. Help?
Are these 243 heads ported? I assume you have stainless exhaust valves?
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Old 11-04-2015, 11:36 PM   #40
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Default no. and yes.

Heads are not ported. Ex are ss. I bought it as a turbo 6.0 w blow thru bw
476. Bent the rods three times before I put in forged along w 4.125 crank. I put the turbo on my other boat w a forged rot assy 5.7. So now it still has the turbo cam and its na. It seems to like nos but I'd like more power before the nos.
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