Why do you think the 4th Generation didn't sell as well as it should have?
03-11-2008, 09:17 AM
#21
3. Alot of people saw the horsepower numbers and the 5.7L and assumed that it got terrible gas mileage (which we all know is not true)
03-11-2008, 10:59 AM
#23
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As far as its sales vs the Mustang.. it really does make sense. I mean performance trims aside.. look at our base model Firebirds/Camaros vs their base model Mustangs based on non-performance attributes.
You have a Mustang that sits at a normal ride height... has a trunk... sunroof option... blends in better with the rest the cars on the road and although there isn't a middle seat belt, it does have a bench seat in the back where you could carry 5 passengers if needed. And as I look at that list that describes the Mustang and think to myself how much more I like sitting lower, having a pony car that resembles more of a sports car and an option for T-Tops in my F-Body... I realize the huge market difference between the two cars that are suppose to directly compete with each other.
Plain a simple, the Mustang appeals to a much wider audience. Those V6 Mustangs bleed into the same market of ppl that are looking to buy a higher trim midsized coupe (for example, cars that compete in the same market as the G6 and the old Grand Am).. those just looking for a sporty looking car as an every day driver for a low price. The base model F-Bodies didn't have even close to the same type of buyer unless it was someone who wanted a pony car (for the most part).
Then u get into the V8 trims and you have a Mustang GT that has no direct competition. The Cobra (minus 00, 02 and the 03/04s obviously) was the car that competed with the V8 F-Bodies that we all drive.. and for anyone that was just looking for a V8 powered sporty car, the Mustang GT was a big seller because it was cheaper than the other V8s.
I wouldn't give up my Trans Am for anything, but thats because, just like the rest of you for the most part... am in the exact market our cars were directed at... and thats not a big market (but do notice how we have more V8s on the road vs our V6s than they do
). Obviously thats just one of many many many reasons that led to our cars being canned in 2002, but it does explain the big ratio difference of Mustangs on the roads vs F-Bodies and the ppl driving each.
You have a Mustang that sits at a normal ride height... has a trunk... sunroof option... blends in better with the rest the cars on the road and although there isn't a middle seat belt, it does have a bench seat in the back where you could carry 5 passengers if needed. And as I look at that list that describes the Mustang and think to myself how much more I like sitting lower, having a pony car that resembles more of a sports car and an option for T-Tops in my F-Body... I realize the huge market difference between the two cars that are suppose to directly compete with each other.
Plain a simple, the Mustang appeals to a much wider audience. Those V6 Mustangs bleed into the same market of ppl that are looking to buy a higher trim midsized coupe (for example, cars that compete in the same market as the G6 and the old Grand Am).. those just looking for a sporty looking car as an every day driver for a low price. The base model F-Bodies didn't have even close to the same type of buyer unless it was someone who wanted a pony car (for the most part).
Then u get into the V8 trims and you have a Mustang GT that has no direct competition. The Cobra (minus 00, 02 and the 03/04s obviously) was the car that competed with the V8 F-Bodies that we all drive.. and for anyone that was just looking for a V8 powered sporty car, the Mustang GT was a big seller because it was cheaper than the other V8s.
I wouldn't give up my Trans Am for anything, but thats because, just like the rest of you for the most part... am in the exact market our cars were directed at... and thats not a big market (but do notice how we have more V8s on the road vs our V6s than they do
). Obviously thats just one of many many many reasons that led to our cars being canned in 2002, but it does explain the big ratio difference of Mustangs on the roads vs F-Bodies and the ppl driving each. Last edited by LS1Transhed; 03-11-2008 at 11:24 AM.
03-11-2008, 11:06 AM
#24
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A better question would be why after many years of building up a popular product such as the Camaro would a large corporation suddenly decide to simply stop producing a profitable commodity . The company alleged that its product simply wasn't good enough to be competitive so they just decided to kill it . People , I'm sorry but that's just not the WHOLE truth . Buried deep within the corporation archives lies the records that reveal the truth . And one day in the distant future someone in the know will reveal the real reason why General Motors decided to kill the two most powerful muscle cars or pony cars in history . If it was as they alleged then all they would have had to do was kill off either the Camaro or the Firebird but not both . No my friends, GM is hiding the REAL reason . After much in fighting the decision was made to rescind the cancelled Pony car & the Camaro was reborn . The in fighting has continued until this very day . That's what has caused the long delay . That and the fact that everything it seems has conspired to kill off the Camaro before it even arrives . When it was first announced that the Camaro was to be discontinued was there an outcry like there was when Ford was going to replace the Mustang with the Probe ? Hell no ! Most all of the Camaro & Firebird enthusiast sat quietly by & simply let it happen , so we all got what we deserved. Well now its too late .
that seems relatively paranoid. the reason was money plain and simple. GM was killing RWD platforms.. and did not want to spend the money to retool and save a RWD platform that did not sell well... even though the reason that it did not sell well was mostly their fault.
ford put the money into marketing and build brand recognition.
GM is not out to get you man... they;re out for themselves and their bottom line.
why did they kill oldsmobile? same reason. Oldsmobile was the king of the muscle car.
03-11-2008, 12:07 PM
#26
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Oh I agree fully. But tell that to some mom who buys the car as a grocery getter... Its not a big trunk, but its still a trunk. I can't image some middle aged lady being too happy after slamming on the brakes and getting hit in the back of the head with a can of campbell's chicken noodle soup cause she had to put the groceries in a hatch, hahaha.
Last edited by LS1Transhed; 03-11-2008 at 12:16 PM.
03-22-2008, 01:50 AM
#27
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Pretty much. The main reason the Camaro and Firebird didn't sell well was due to the fact that no one knew what was in them. ...and people still don't.
I remember during the Indy 500, they had a C6 Pace Car leading the pack and the announcer thought the car had a 5.7L engine in it. I think it was in 2006, probably 2007.
Another thing worth mentioning was when I bought a new desk from Office Depot in 2004 I had someone help me out to my car to load it up. The guy immediately thought it wasn't going to fit. Not only did I prove him wrong, but I impressed him by folding down my back seat. Upon doing so I got a response, "I didn't know you could do that."
Our cars weren't overpriced, we just didn't have a crappy version to appeal to the masses.
Does anyone else hate it when people immediately think your car wont move when it snows? Like it will just sit there spinning it's tires. I love passing front wheel drive cars in my Camaro with it's amazing ASR in the snow. (I say it's half the car and half the driver.) Also note that I never ever see any Mustangs out in the snow, and if you do, they are usually on the shoulder ...crying.
...I'm rambling. I'm sorry.
I remember during the Indy 500, they had a C6 Pace Car leading the pack and the announcer thought the car had a 5.7L engine in it. I think it was in 2006, probably 2007.
Another thing worth mentioning was when I bought a new desk from Office Depot in 2004 I had someone help me out to my car to load it up. The guy immediately thought it wasn't going to fit. Not only did I prove him wrong, but I impressed him by folding down my back seat. Upon doing so I got a response, "I didn't know you could do that."
Our cars weren't overpriced, we just didn't have a crappy version to appeal to the masses.
Does anyone else hate it when people immediately think your car wont move when it snows? Like it will just sit there spinning it's tires. I love passing front wheel drive cars in my Camaro with it's amazing ASR in the snow. (I say it's half the car and half the driver.) Also note that I never ever see any Mustangs out in the snow, and if you do, they are usually on the shoulder ...crying.
...I'm rambling. I'm sorry.
03-22-2008, 02:29 AM
#29
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overpriced compared to the competition. The trend was pushing away from heavy sports cars, remember all the talk about gas mileage being a big thing just a few years BEFORE the big spikes in gas prices?
Add to that big cities were starting to suffer heavy traffic problems and parking issues and it just compounded on the image of a sports car. My generation would have been the ideal market to sell the car to, just as my father's market was the 2nd gen/3rd gen, but when you compare prices, the 4th gen wasn't in that price range. All the while my generation was getting hammered by the small agile quick car concepts, racing games featured smaller quick agile imports and you begin to see how the f-body disappeared from North America's view of fast in the pop culture.
What's happened though is that in it's time overlooked, it's carried a sort of mystique to it that only now people have realized that they were amazing cars. Especially knocked down in price used. No one really realized just how fast these cars really were except those that followed the cars closely and those that bought them knowing full well what it was. I have the occasional import pull up beside my car thinking it's not that fast (3rd gen stigma) but the way it pulls on the top end and how well it reels cars in on the top end at the track really freak people out.
Add to that big cities were starting to suffer heavy traffic problems and parking issues and it just compounded on the image of a sports car. My generation would have been the ideal market to sell the car to, just as my father's market was the 2nd gen/3rd gen, but when you compare prices, the 4th gen wasn't in that price range. All the while my generation was getting hammered by the small agile quick car concepts, racing games featured smaller quick agile imports and you begin to see how the f-body disappeared from North America's view of fast in the pop culture.
What's happened though is that in it's time overlooked, it's carried a sort of mystique to it that only now people have realized that they were amazing cars. Especially knocked down in price used. No one really realized just how fast these cars really were except those that followed the cars closely and those that bought them knowing full well what it was. I have the occasional import pull up beside my car thinking it's not that fast (3rd gen stigma) but the way it pulls on the top end and how well it reels cars in on the top end at the track really freak people out.
03-27-2008, 09:51 PM
#30
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I may not be 100% factual on this but I believe V-6 Mustangs were the driving force behind Mustang sales. Most people aren't going to go for a pricer V-8 if they plan on daily driving the car everyday. The V-8's were meant to be specialized toward gear heads and weekend warriors for middle aged men. (instead they have turned into a mostly underground obsession with kids in their 20s, but that is besides the point) However, I still don't understand why someone who had the intention of purchasing a V-6, more times than not chose a Mustang over a Firebird/Camaro. This is how the F-bod really died.
03-27-2008, 10:55 PM
#31
-Lack of marketing (The Corvette is the only GM model that sells itself and can get away without marketing)
-The Mustang appealed to a wider audience, most importantly women.
-The SUV trend was in full swing
-Increasing safety standard necessitating a redesign
-GM was focused on FWD cars, no RWD replacement chassis
-The F-body was used for Camaro's and Trans Am's only, in an age where chassis are used for 4+ different models
-The Mustang appealed to a wider audience, most importantly women.
-The SUV trend was in full swing
-Increasing safety standard necessitating a redesign
-GM was focused on FWD cars, no RWD replacement chassis
-The F-body was used for Camaro's and Trans Am's only, in an age where chassis are used for 4+ different models
Last edited by SS#1531; 03-28-2008 at 10:12 PM.
03-28-2008, 01:57 AM
#32
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That's what i heard. GM Had a 40 year contract with Canada or something, the only way to end it was to end production of the F-body. Read it on CamaroSource.ca which is a canadian F-body Forum.
03-28-2008, 02:23 AM
#33
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The second someone sat in an Fbody theyd know the interior was straight from the 80s. ugly *** steering wheel (which huge bubble air bag, front lit switches, not even fully powered seats. the interior was just dated.
and i heard/read something about how the rake on the windshield didnt pass 2003 safety regulations, so the camaro would have been due for a restyle.
i guess the low sales numbers are due mainly to bad marketing (as been stated in almost every reply here) and IMO the half assed interior.
and i heard/read something about how the rake on the windshield didnt pass 2003 safety regulations, so the camaro would have been due for a restyle.
i guess the low sales numbers are due mainly to bad marketing (as been stated in almost every reply here) and IMO the half assed interior.
03-28-2008, 03:11 PM
#34
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I am currently reading the book 'All Corvettes are Red', which documents the development of the C5 Corvette. I find the book to be very interesting reading giving a lot of insight into what was going on in the late 80s and early
90s at GM. They simply lost their way! They were bleeding money lost stuck pigs and didn't have any real leadership. They almost pulled the plug on the Corvette! The C5 was originally supposed to have debuted as a 93 model, but was delayed until 97 for a variety of economic reasons, and almost didn't make it to production due to lack of real leadership at GM. So if Corvette, the #1 GM and US automotive icon almost was killed off, it is not surprising that the Camaro and Firebird were even more neglected.
90s at GM. They simply lost their way! They were bleeding money lost stuck pigs and didn't have any real leadership. They almost pulled the plug on the Corvette! The C5 was originally supposed to have debuted as a 93 model, but was delayed until 97 for a variety of economic reasons, and almost didn't make it to production due to lack of real leadership at GM. So if Corvette, the #1 GM and US automotive icon almost was killed off, it is not surprising that the Camaro and Firebird were even more neglected.
03-28-2008, 05:54 PM
#35
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I dont rember seeing one add or comercial for the camaro in 01/02 , can't recall any as a matter of fact.
I wasnt a big fan of them in 02 but my bud took me out and I test drove a used 98 red SS and I was hooked just had to get black and found a 01.
But I still have peopel today that have no idea what my car is, Just today I had a lady and her kid pull next to me in the video store parking lot and I could See the kid lip " LOOK A CORVETT!" haha and then they got out and the lady asked what kind of car it was I told her she said she thought it was a Viper lol , no joke and this isn't the first time.
Small market for the car and no Adds. Look at what sold back then people just wernt looking for a V8 sports car. They wanted a giant gas hogs.
I wasnt a big fan of them in 02 but my bud took me out and I test drove a used 98 red SS and I was hooked just had to get black and found a 01.
But I still have peopel today that have no idea what my car is, Just today I had a lady and her kid pull next to me in the video store parking lot and I could See the kid lip " LOOK A CORVETT!" haha and then they got out and the lady asked what kind of car it was I told her she said she thought it was a Viper lol , no joke and this isn't the first time.
Small market for the car and no Adds. Look at what sold back then people just wernt looking for a V8 sports car. They wanted a giant gas hogs.
03-28-2008, 06:52 PM
#36
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I've always herd the car was to big. I took my ex's father for a ride in my TA,(before LT's and 4.10's) he has a 03 mustang gt, he was so impressed with my car. He said he never knew these cars were that fast. They under estimated them
Thats my guess, I don't really know why. I always thought F-bodies were awesome looking cars with great performance. People have bad taste
Thats my guess, I don't really know why. I always thought F-bodies were awesome looking cars with great performance. People have bad taste
03-29-2008, 03:27 PM
#38
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my car should be worth a good amount if i keep garaging it lol. (another rare clean LT1)
dont you guys think its kind of wierd seeing the 4th gen die with the LS1 in it compared to the sales of the LT1? i seriously think if GM had designed a better GENII sales wouldve been a little better.
then the fact GM couldnt afford the plant in canada to continue production which couldve played a role.
dont you guys think its kind of wierd seeing the 4th gen die with the LS1 in it compared to the sales of the LT1? i seriously think if GM had designed a better GENII sales wouldve been a little better.
then the fact GM couldnt afford the plant in canada to continue production which couldve played a role.
03-30-2008, 10:08 AM
#39
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I am currently reading the book 'All Corvettes are Red', which documents the development of the C5 Corvette. I find the book to be very interesting reading giving a lot of insight into what was going on in the late 80s and early
90s at GM. They simply lost their way! They were bleeding money lost stuck pigs and didn't have any real leadership. They almost pulled the plug on the Corvette! The C5 was originally supposed to have debuted as a 93 model, but was delayed until 97 for a variety of economic reasons, and almost didn't make it to production due to lack of real leadership at GM. So if Corvette, the #1 GM and US automotive icon almost was killed off, it is not surprising that the Camaro and Firebird were even more neglected.
90s at GM. They simply lost their way! They were bleeding money lost stuck pigs and didn't have any real leadership. They almost pulled the plug on the Corvette! The C5 was originally supposed to have debuted as a 93 model, but was delayed until 97 for a variety of economic reasons, and almost didn't make it to production due to lack of real leadership at GM. So if Corvette, the #1 GM and US automotive icon almost was killed off, it is not surprising that the Camaro and Firebird were even more neglected.
04-08-2008, 06:02 PM
#40
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It comes down to marketing, and that the Mustang appeals to a much broader market. Ford has done a great marketing job with the Mustang, starting back in the day of the first generation.
And to all the guys that say all Mustang drivers are pussies- That's like saying all Camaro owners are inbred rednecks with mullets.
Simple, they really weren't profitable. Had they been, GM would have found any excuse to keep them. It didn't make financial sense, so they axed both.
Ahem... remember the '00 Cobra R? And the '99 and '01 Cobras were right up there with the LS1 cars. Not to mention the '03 and '04 Cobras and the Mach 1s even though they were two years after the F body kicked the bucket.
And to all the guys that say all Mustang drivers are pussies- That's like saying all Camaro owners are inbred rednecks with mullets.
A better question would be why after many years of building up a popular product such as the Camaro would a large corporation suddenly decide to simply stop producing a profitable commodity . The company alleged that its product simply wasn't good enough to be competitive so they just decided to kill it . People , I'm sorry but that's just not the WHOLE truth . Buried deep within the corporation archives lies the records that reveal the truth . And one day in the distant future someone in the know will reveal the real reason why General Motors decided to kill the two most powerful muscle cars or pony cars in history . If it was as they alleged then all they would have had to do was kill off either the Camaro or the Firebird but not both . No my friends, GM is hiding the REAL reason . After much in fighting the decision was made to rescind the cancelled Pony car & the Camaro was reborn . The in fighting has continued until this very day . That's what has caused the long delay . That and the fact that everything it seems has conspired to kill off the Camaro before it even arrives . When it was first announced that the Camaro was to be discontinued was there an outcry like there was when Ford was going to replace the Mustang with the Probe ? Hell no ! Most all of the Camaro & Firebird enthusiast sat quietly by & simply let it happen , so we all got what we deserved. Well now its too late .
Ahem... remember the '00 Cobra R? And the '99 and '01 Cobras were right up there with the LS1 cars. Not to mention the '03 and '04 Cobras and the Mach 1s even though they were two years after the F body kicked the bucket.
Last edited by jman511115; 04-08-2008 at 06:13 PM.