1973 RS Camaro LSX Swap
11-20-2011, 06:05 PM
#601
Man I know you have to be happy to see positive results from so much work!!! Awesome car for sure. I see you yanked the front tires on several occasions. That is a sweet ride all around!!! I love the pic with the front tires in the air!!! Those trick springs sure do keep the front up high during the entire run. Look forward to seeing this car run locally. I will definately have to check you out. Maybe even line up beside ya, who better to outrun me than a fellow LS1techer!!! Of course I will prolly have to spray it to keep up. We need to get the videographer a tripod as I am nausious after the first three runs, lol!!! Great job and thanks for all your help!!!
11-20-2011, 07:35 PM
#602
Man I know you have to be happy to see positive results from so much work!!! Awesome car for sure. I see you yanked the front tires on several occasions. That is a sweet ride all around!!! I love the pic with the front tires in the air!!! Those trick springs sure do keep the front up high during the entire run. Look forward to seeing this car run locally. I will definately have to check you out. Maybe even line up beside ya, who better to outrun me than a fellow LS1techer!!! Of course I will prolly have to spray it to keep up. We need to get the videographer a tripod as I am nausious after the first three runs, lol!!! Great job and thanks for all your help!!!
It would be alot of fun to hit the track together some day Tony! How far of a drive are you from Richmond? What other tracks would be close to both of us once I get to Charlottesville, VA? It'd be a blast to line up with you with this car, or even my TA since it'd be six speed vs. six speed
. But I don't think you'll need the spray. You're car is gonna run like a bastard, I'm sure! The TA ran 12.11 @ 115.74 out here in similar air to the runs I've been making with the Camaro, so it doesn't get down the 1320 quite as well. Of course, a lot of that was due to me trying 27 inch tires on it. That took too much gear out of it and it didn't like it at all! It just won't 60' anymore....at least not the way I launch it (easy).You know, the funny thing is I do own a tripod for that camera and can't for the life of me figure out why I never take it with me to the track. That was my buddy's wife filming
. Shaky film is better than none, I guess....but now that I've seen her video work I won't be asking her to run the camera again.....tripod or no tripod. You wouldn't believe how much footage of the ground I had to sort through and delete just to find the shots of my car. 
Thanks again for the kind and motivating words! Means a lot from you guys that have built such awesome cars too!
01-15-2012, 01:19 PM
#603
I thought I'd blow the dust off this thread. Man it's hard to believe it's been almost two months since I've posted in here. Anyway, I went back to the track yesterday to do some more testing and I have some interesting results to share. My previous best ET/MPH were achieved through a full 3-inch exhaust with an x-pipe, Flowmaster 40-series mufflers, and full tail pipes. So this time out, I wanted to see if there was anything to be gained with by ditching the exhaust system and running open headers. Since I had already set a baseline "best time" with the exhaust on, I took the exhuast off before heading to the track. To achieve a fair standard for comparing runs made on different days, I have corrected all my timeslips down to a DA of 0ft. This should eliminate any day to day weather effects on power.
So just as a reminder, here are the conditions and results of my previous best pass made on 19 November.
Previous Best (through exhaust)
DA: 4572ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.70
1/8: 7.49
MPH: 92.73
1/4: 11.74
MPH: 115.41
This pass corrects to 11.07@122.34 at a DA of 0ft
And now for my results from yesterday......
First Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 3908ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.67
1/8: 7.33
MPH: 94.36
1/4: 11.50
MPH: 117.63
This pass corrects to 10.95@123.60 at a DA of 0ft
Initially this pass looks to have shown an impressive gain over my previous best. Even when comparing the corrected times, this is .12 sec quicker and 1.25 MPH faster than my previous best. However, the first thing to consider is that the exhaust I removed weighed 71 lbs. Following the rule of thumb that says a 100lb weight reduction is equal to about .1 sec ET reduction initially tells me this gain was mostly from the weight savings. However, based on my next two runs, I'm thinking even more so that this gain was almost completely because of the intake manifold and carburetor being completely cold on the first pass and had nothing to do with the exhaust at all. You'll see why in a second when you look at my second and third passes with no changes made to the car at all besides heat soak.
Second Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 3908ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.70
1/8: 7.43
MPH: 94.24
1/4: 11.62
MPH: 116.98
This pass corrects to 11.06@122.92 at a DA of 0ft
The interesting thing about this pass is that it was made in the same DA as the first pass, just 30 mins later. So the only difference between these two passes was the amount of heat the intake had soaked up. The engine was warmed up to around 150 for the first pass, but I'm certain the intake wasn't very warm. The water temp was the same on the second pass, but I'm certain the intake was heat soaked after sitting only 30 minutes. So for this reason I consider my first pass to be a cold "throw away" pass. Now compare the corrected time on my second pass with the corrected time of my "previous best with exhaust" pass. You'll see there was virtually no gain at all in ET and a very modest MPH gain without the exhaust, as the corrected times were almost identical. But wait there's more....... I still wanted to make a third pass to backup to the second heat soaked run. The third pass was made 45 mins later in slightly worse DA.
Third Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 4100ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.72
1/8: 7.46
MPH: 93.58
1/4: 11.67
MPH: 116.46
This pass corrects to 11.08@122.96 at a DA of 0ft
Notice how the 60', ET, and MPH all fell off slightly from the second pass due to the slightly higher DA. Yet the corrected ET and MPH again almost exactly match both the second pass and my previous best with exhaust. To me this again proves there was no gain by removing the exhaust.
Next up was to test with the addition of a 1-inch HVH Super Sucker carb spacer. I have heard mixed results with these things so of course I had to try it for myself. All I can say is that I'm "skeptically" pleased with my purchase. The results speak for themself, but with one caveat that I will address in a minute.
Fourth Pass (without exhaust/added HVH spacer)
DA: 4300ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.64
1/8: 7.33
MPH: 94.32
1/4: 11.51
MPH: 117.19
This pass corrects to 10.90@123.79 at a DA of 0ft
Man was I happy after this pass! Notice the DA was up an additional 200ft from my last pass, yet I ran my second quickest/fastest pass of the day. Comparing this pass's corrected values to that of my 2nd and 3rd passes, I show an average "corrected" gain of .17 and .85 MPH. My only skeptasim with this gain is that the intake was allowed to cool more, both before and during the install of the spacer. In fact, there was almost 2 hours between pass number three and pass number four. So one might say it is more fair to compare pass four to pass number one when the intake was much cooler. When you make that comparison, you still see a "corrected" gain of .05 sec and .19 MPH with the spacer. But I'm here to tell you that, even with almost two hours to cool, the intake was still much warmer on pass four than it was on pass one. The real test would have been to make one more pass with the spacer after a shorter cool down period, but unfortunately the staging lanes closed before I could make that happen. So I guess that just gives me an excuse for more testing another day.
Given my results this far I have drawn these two conclusions:
1. The exhaust is going back on the car and will probably stay there.
2. The HVH spacer was worthwhile, even if the intake temp is questionable.
So just as a reminder, here are the conditions and results of my previous best pass made on 19 November.
Previous Best (through exhaust)
DA: 4572ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.70
1/8: 7.49
MPH: 92.73
1/4: 11.74
MPH: 115.41
This pass corrects to 11.07@122.34 at a DA of 0ft
And now for my results from yesterday......
First Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 3908ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.67
1/8: 7.33
MPH: 94.36
1/4: 11.50
MPH: 117.63
This pass corrects to 10.95@123.60 at a DA of 0ft
Initially this pass looks to have shown an impressive gain over my previous best. Even when comparing the corrected times, this is .12 sec quicker and 1.25 MPH faster than my previous best. However, the first thing to consider is that the exhaust I removed weighed 71 lbs. Following the rule of thumb that says a 100lb weight reduction is equal to about .1 sec ET reduction initially tells me this gain was mostly from the weight savings. However, based on my next two runs, I'm thinking even more so that this gain was almost completely because of the intake manifold and carburetor being completely cold on the first pass and had nothing to do with the exhaust at all. You'll see why in a second when you look at my second and third passes with no changes made to the car at all besides heat soak.
Second Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 3908ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.70
1/8: 7.43
MPH: 94.24
1/4: 11.62
MPH: 116.98
This pass corrects to 11.06@122.92 at a DA of 0ft
The interesting thing about this pass is that it was made in the same DA as the first pass, just 30 mins later. So the only difference between these two passes was the amount of heat the intake had soaked up. The engine was warmed up to around 150 for the first pass, but I'm certain the intake wasn't very warm. The water temp was the same on the second pass, but I'm certain the intake was heat soaked after sitting only 30 minutes. So for this reason I consider my first pass to be a cold "throw away" pass. Now compare the corrected time on my second pass with the corrected time of my "previous best with exhaust" pass. You'll see there was virtually no gain at all in ET and a very modest MPH gain without the exhaust, as the corrected times were almost identical. But wait there's more....... I still wanted to make a third pass to backup to the second heat soaked run. The third pass was made 45 mins later in slightly worse DA.
Third Pass (without exhaust)
DA: 4100ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.72
1/8: 7.46
MPH: 93.58
1/4: 11.67
MPH: 116.46
This pass corrects to 11.08@122.96 at a DA of 0ft
Notice how the 60', ET, and MPH all fell off slightly from the second pass due to the slightly higher DA. Yet the corrected ET and MPH again almost exactly match both the second pass and my previous best with exhaust. To me this again proves there was no gain by removing the exhaust.
Next up was to test with the addition of a 1-inch HVH Super Sucker carb spacer. I have heard mixed results with these things so of course I had to try it for myself. All I can say is that I'm "skeptically" pleased with my purchase. The results speak for themself, but with one caveat that I will address in a minute.
Fourth Pass (without exhaust/added HVH spacer)
DA: 4300ft
Launch: 3800RPM
60’: 1.64
1/8: 7.33
MPH: 94.32
1/4: 11.51
MPH: 117.19
This pass corrects to 10.90@123.79 at a DA of 0ft
Man was I happy after this pass! Notice the DA was up an additional 200ft from my last pass, yet I ran my second quickest/fastest pass of the day. Comparing this pass's corrected values to that of my 2nd and 3rd passes, I show an average "corrected" gain of .17 and .85 MPH. My only skeptasim with this gain is that the intake was allowed to cool more, both before and during the install of the spacer. In fact, there was almost 2 hours between pass number three and pass number four. So one might say it is more fair to compare pass four to pass number one when the intake was much cooler. When you make that comparison, you still see a "corrected" gain of .05 sec and .19 MPH with the spacer. But I'm here to tell you that, even with almost two hours to cool, the intake was still much warmer on pass four than it was on pass one. The real test would have been to make one more pass with the spacer after a shorter cool down period, but unfortunately the staging lanes closed before I could make that happen. So I guess that just gives me an excuse for more testing another day.
Given my results this far I have drawn these two conclusions:
1. The exhaust is going back on the car and will probably stay there.
2. The HVH spacer was worthwhile, even if the intake temp is questionable.
01-15-2012, 01:33 PM
#604
That is awesome to see you dip in the 10's!!! After everything settles in/down you will have one heck of a consistent car. I wonder if you might be a touch rich hence the better passes while cool? If so I would leave it and add the juice!!! What ya think??? Say a 100 rwhp shot through the exhaust with the wheels up in the air. I say you put the Camaro on a diet and lets see some low 10's, then add the juice and tap into the 9's. Are you going to bracket race this car? Great work Gary and thanks for the test/tune sessions to let us know what works and what doesn't. Real world results are the best.
01-15-2012, 02:37 PM
#605
. Hopefully it will be capable of those numbers though once I get back east.I wonder if you might be a touch rich hence the better passes while cool? If so I would leave it and add the juice!!! What ya think??? Say a 100 rwhp shot through the exhaust with the wheels up in the air. I say you put the Camaro on a diet and lets see some low 10's, then add the juice and tap into the 9's. Are you going to bracket race this car? Great work Gary and thanks for the test/tune sessions to let us know what works and what doesn't. Real world results are the best.
I feel like this thing is just begging for some spray, so that is in the future plans for sure......maybe by next year! I may try my hand at a little bracket racing with this car in the future, but it wasn't the original intent of the build. The intent was to have a quick and reliable street car that I could occasionally test and tune at the track without being hassled by tech. Up until this point I haven't bracket raced either of my cars much at all, but my RT's are getting pretty decent with this car, so between that and it's consistency.....it may be fun to bracket race it a little.
I had a lot of fun testing at the track and figuring out what works. I'm a stickler for details so it drives me crazy that there are still so many variables that could have affected my testing. I really would have been much happier with my spacer test if I could have made just one more pass, but oh well.....
01-15-2012, 03:12 PM
#606
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Hi ! i follow your project since one year , and im about to do the same thing with my 1980 firebird , i want to know wich kind of headers you use on your setup , y dont find your headers part number on edelbrock website and y dont want to buy 5 headers set too put the rigth one in place , ... and for the motor mount ... i know camaro ant firebird are not the same but it will fit on my bird mount (with adapter like you , y have purshased one set , bon i dont know if they will fit or if i need to buy camaro suport to bolt on my frame
01-15-2012, 03:55 PM
#607
Hi ! i follow your project since one year , and im about to do the same thing with my 1980 firebird , i want to know wich kind of headers you use on your setup , y dont find your headers part number on edelbrock website and y dont want to buy 5 headers set too put the rigth one in place , ... and for the motor mount ... i know camaro ant firebird are not the same but it will fit on my bird mount (with adapter like you , y have purshased one set , bon i dont know if they will fit or if i need to buy camaro suport to bolt on my frame
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/NEW-Dy...030C#answerbox
http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=231683
I don't have a real good answer for you on your mount question, but I'm pretty sure you can use your stock Firebird clamshell mounts (upper and lower) with the adapter plates I'm using. I know the Firebird lower mounts are different from the Camaros, but I'm not sure about the upper half? But there are a few guys that have swapped LS motors into 2nd gen Firebirds, so maybe you can check their threads for mount information. Good luck with your swap!
01-15-2012, 07:46 PM
#609
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The pieces is no more availlable ... but i have find the same headers on summit racing , the same piece number , the they not mention that was for fitting an LSx in a 2th gen f-body ! that cost me 505$ (duty not inclued) shipped to canada
01-15-2012, 07:46 PM
#610
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01-17-2012, 10:41 PM
#612
I was doing some thinking tonight about the way I calculated and presented my track results after removing the exhaust. It occured to me that I was only comparing my best run with the exhaust to all of my runs without. What that came down to was that my best run with exhaust was equal to my worst runs without. So instead I went back and looked at the corrected times for ALL the passes through the exhaust on 19 November, and this is how it looks:
First Pass
11.12 @ 120.65
Second Pass
11.21 @ 120.52
Third Pass
11.17 @ 120.93
Fourth Pass
11.07 @ 122.34
Fifth Pass
11.13 @ 122.52
So the average ET and MPH for all these passes is 11.14 @ 121.39
And since I've already listed the corrected times for my "without exhaust" passes in a previous post, I'll just list the average of those runs. I'm only averaging the first three passes since the fourth pass was made with the HVH spacer.
The average ET and MPH for the "without exhaust" passes is 11.03 @ 123.16
So when looking at my data this way, I had an average gain of .11 sec and 1.77 mph by removing the exhaust. This is still not enough for me to want to pull the exhaust off the car regularly to hit the track and it still makes me feel good about the efficiency of my exhaust system. However, it's also good to know that my car is at least consistent enough to show a gain when 71lbs is removed (that had me confused), and it shows there is a modest amount of horsepower to be freed up if I ever need that last little bit to push me past an ET goal.
First Pass
11.12 @ 120.65
Second Pass
11.21 @ 120.52
Third Pass
11.17 @ 120.93
Fourth Pass
11.07 @ 122.34
Fifth Pass
11.13 @ 122.52
So the average ET and MPH for all these passes is 11.14 @ 121.39
And since I've already listed the corrected times for my "without exhaust" passes in a previous post, I'll just list the average of those runs. I'm only averaging the first three passes since the fourth pass was made with the HVH spacer.
The average ET and MPH for the "without exhaust" passes is 11.03 @ 123.16
So when looking at my data this way, I had an average gain of .11 sec and 1.77 mph by removing the exhaust. This is still not enough for me to want to pull the exhaust off the car regularly to hit the track and it still makes me feel good about the efficiency of my exhaust system. However, it's also good to know that my car is at least consistent enough to show a gain when 71lbs is removed (that had me confused), and it shows there is a modest amount of horsepower to be freed up if I ever need that last little bit to push me past an ET goal.
01-19-2012, 12:24 AM
#615
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I see in HOT ROD magasine , a 79 camaro with a LS3 , with stock exaust and catalytic converter on it ... only minor modification on the rigth rear lower control arm mount was needed
soo this mean after market for 10-11 camaro headers will fit ?
what you think about ?
Heres for the project page
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/h...ory_drive.html
soo this mean after market for 10-11 camaro headers will fit ?
what you think about ?
Heres for the project page
http://www.hotrod.com/projectbuild/h...ory_drive.html
Last edited by oxidenx; 01-19-2012 at 09:02 AM.
01-19-2012, 12:33 AM
#616
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01-19-2012, 09:21 AM
#617
Thanks. I'm still learning but getting a little better.
Hmmmm, I don't know? It sure looks like they may work since the factory exhaust seems to fit, but it may also depend on your engine location, which would be dictated by what mounts and adapter plates you use. Maybe you can be the first to try them and let us all know.....
. I know some guys have used 4th Gen F-body headers (I don't remember which brand) to swap LS motors into 2nd Gens but they had to bend the drivers side collector inwards quite a bit so it aims straight back. Otherwise it will be aimed towards the subframe. If you try the 5th Gen headers, let us know if they work!
. I know some guys have used 4th Gen F-body headers (I don't remember which brand) to swap LS motors into 2nd Gens but they had to bend the drivers side collector inwards quite a bit so it aims straight back. Otherwise it will be aimed towards the subframe. If you try the 5th Gen headers, let us know if they work!
01-19-2012, 01:14 PM
#618
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Thanks. I'm still learning but getting a little better.
Hmmmm, I don't know? It sure looks like they may work since the factory exhaust seems to fit, but it may also depend on your engine location, which would be dictated by what mounts and adapter plates you use. Maybe you can be the first to try them and let us all know...... I know some guys have used 4th Gen F-body headers (I don't remember which brand) to swap LS motors into 2nd Gens but they had to bend the drivers side collector inwards quite a bit so it aims straight back. Otherwise it will be aimed towards the subframe. If you try the 5th Gen headers, let us know if they work!
Hmmmm, I don't know? It sure looks like they may work since the factory exhaust seems to fit, but it may also depend on your engine location, which would be dictated by what mounts and adapter plates you use. Maybe you can be the first to try them and let us all know.....
. I know some guys have used 4th Gen F-body headers (I don't remember which brand) to swap LS motors into 2nd Gens but they had to bend the drivers side collector inwards quite a bit so it aims straight back. Otherwise it will be aimed towards the subframe. If you try the 5th Gen headers, let us know if they work!
01-19-2012, 03:25 PM
#619
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Finally i have found a dealer 2d , at lease 75km from house , who can have the Dynatech kit , and ive ordered this complete kit , headers and complete line for 1130 $ CAD , +shipping ... tank you for all the link and help you given to me ! i apreciate this !
01-19-2012, 06:31 PM
#620
Gary........ I was wondering what you have been up to. Glad to see you back at it. I was missed seeing your posts/car.
Jim
Jim