Third gen Camaro Options?
01-31-2011, 01:21 AM
#1
Third gen Camaro Options? Im just wondering what the best reasons are to switch to a gen III/IV engine over a gen 1 TPI 350. Also what would be better (or cheaper) (including installling) to build to around 400 rwhp.
basically someone sent me a message when i suggested that they switch to a gen 3, and they said this...
There's alot to be said for a SBC engine making good numbers. More so than can be said for an LS1 modded since it's obvious those are better from the get go. But the Gen. 1 engine have been around much much longer than LS based engines, and are proven ones at that.
Then you get the wow factor for yourself and from others when your SBC whoops an LS engine's ***. It's really not that hard to make a SBC motor faster than a LS1 engine and it's cheaper too. That and several years of parts and experienced people make working and modding one that much more enjoyable. If I wanted something along the lines of LS based like I know some others have done (personally) then I probably would've already started in that direction 2 years ago. But after racing a LS car 2 years ago and not losing so badly against it before I got serious with my car, I'd be really stupid to give up on the Gen. 1 engine.
Parts to parts as for prices go, non-LS is the way to go. LS based parts are way more expensive but are starting to go down a little. Most guys with LS cars aren't toting around with 450 or 500 to the wheels, most are usually stock or less than 450hp. It takes alot of money to do that with either engine choice. Plus I feel that it's disrespectful to the IROC to take a non-SBC engine and throw in a LS engine, you know? But to make between 300 to 400rwhp on a street/highway/strip car, that's plenty of power for me and the torque, lol, that's even more fun.
basically someone sent me a message when i suggested that they switch to a gen 3, and they said this...
There's alot to be said for a SBC engine making good numbers. More so than can be said for an LS1 modded since it's obvious those are better from the get go. But the Gen. 1 engine have been around much much longer than LS based engines, and are proven ones at that.
Then you get the wow factor for yourself and from others when your SBC whoops an LS engine's ***. It's really not that hard to make a SBC motor faster than a LS1 engine and it's cheaper too. That and several years of parts and experienced people make working and modding one that much more enjoyable. If I wanted something along the lines of LS based like I know some others have done (personally) then I probably would've already started in that direction 2 years ago. But after racing a LS car 2 years ago and not losing so badly against it before I got serious with my car, I'd be really stupid to give up on the Gen. 1 engine.
Parts to parts as for prices go, non-LS is the way to go. LS based parts are way more expensive but are starting to go down a little. Most guys with LS cars aren't toting around with 450 or 500 to the wheels, most are usually stock or less than 450hp. It takes alot of money to do that with either engine choice. Plus I feel that it's disrespectful to the IROC to take a non-SBC engine and throw in a LS engine, you know? But to make between 300 to 400rwhp on a street/highway/strip car, that's plenty of power for me and the torque, lol, that's even more fun.
01-31-2011, 01:55 AM
#2
The Executive brief of my opinion can be summed up in four words: Power, reliability, weight and economy. The Gen I / II platform can not touch the Gen III / IV platform on any of those accounts - like for like (key element) while keeping the others in check.
01-31-2011, 02:01 AM
#3
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well talk to my boy 1nasty86 he he start off swaping to a 5.3 and just put a 6.0 in it and im going to tell you the junk yard 5.3 hurt alot of peoples feelings ! also he really didnt have that much in it either
01-31-2011, 05:04 PM
#7
I'm sure it CAN be done, but the tuned port intake will be one of many limiting factors. Since you have to replace that and everything else, you may well go to the newer more flexible platform.
On the flip side of the coin, there are 500+ HP cars straight from the factory using Gen IV engines with full warranty - that in my opinion say a lot. The Gen III / IV platform is a much better platform, do a search here or on youtube for 500+ HP turbo Gen III / IV engines running 9's in the quarter on a stock short block and sometimes a completely stock cam only engine.
Agreed.
The Mustangs I've played with wished I hadn't.
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01-31-2011, 06:52 PM
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I bought my 88 IROC with 60k miles and a bone stock 5.7 TPI. Over the years I did all i could to get every bit of power from the stock long block. Had all the bolt ons and a mild cam. It was a TAD faster than my bone stock 2000 SS (12.90s). After owning two LS1 Camaros it was no contest to put a LS based engine in my IROC. Im almost a year and a half into my swap and its just about to fire up. I wouldnt think twice about LS swapping any gen I or II SBC car that I ever have. Its just a better power plant all around but i guess everybody has their thing.
01-31-2011, 07:03 PM
#10
the oe ls family has many excellent heads choices for n/a performance
stock ls heads are on par with aftermarket sbc heads or even superior to some.
with an ls its not neessary to upgrade to aftermarket heads.
for a stout n/a sbc its mandatory
stock ls heads are on par with aftermarket sbc heads or even superior to some.
with an ls its not neessary to upgrade to aftermarket heads.
for a stout n/a sbc its mandatory
01-31-2011, 07:48 PM
#11
Fun fact: Fully built naturally aspirated TPI motors (stock cube) with hand ported AFR heads, aftermarket hand ported upper and lower intake, cammed, full bolts ons, modified internals, etc. have not made over 400rwhp as of yet.
Cam only LS1’s make 400rwhp pretty easily.
TPI’s are cool for nostalgia purposes but there is a reason they stopped making the TPI platform along with quadrajets carbs.
01-31-2011, 07:59 PM
#12
Only gripe Ive got about the LSx world is the cost hike over SBCs. They skunk SBCs in absolutely every other category, but you think about it, 20 y/o tech vs 70 y/o tech. Its no surprise that it does better, just like engines designed in the future will lay waste to LSx's of today
01-31-2011, 11:51 PM
#13
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Can you go to a junkyard and get a Gen1 smallblock that is rated over 300 net hp ? Not counting the '60s era smallblocks, which were rated gross and have been snapped up long ago anyways.
Pretty much every LS truck engine makes at least that and the junkyards are full of em. Aluminum heads too !
I read a number of threads where guys are debating between a Big Block and the LS motor.....
Pretty much every LS truck engine makes at least that and the junkyards are full of em. Aluminum heads too !
I read a number of threads where guys are debating between a Big Block and the LS motor.....
02-01-2011, 01:09 PM
#15
eh, this guy im talking to says were all biased, and that these new engines are just a fad. lol
here is his response....
Uh, I hate to tell you but most healthy bone stock L98 TPI's make 205 to 220rwhp. Plenty of those are on TGO's website which makes the crank horsepower more close to 260-270 which means GM fudged the numbers abit. That's okay though.
But there are way too many things to cover with you via email like this but I could go all day about how there are alot of "TPI" 350's making over 350rwhp. I'm sure you've been on TGO but maybe not. I don't know.
However, my car isn't going to be a TPI anymore very soon. If you noticed on my videos, I'm switching. My goal is nothing big, just a modest 400rwhp and 450 foot of torque to drive/race on the street/strip/highway. The HSR will more than be able to do that with the combo I'll be doing. But you need to remember something, LSX maybe what is cool now and one day that'll be gone too. As for the LT1 stuff, no thank you. Too many problems with those intakes and the HSR is a much better choice. If I choose to I can just throw a procharger on my ride or turbo it later and have a good stroker kit and make over 420rwhp. I'm still weighing on which one to get but a turbo 350 with an aftermarket intake/heads/exhaust will make so much torque and horsepower that it'll be amazing. There are some of those vids on Youtube now that I think of it.
More than enough to be happy with.
here is his response....
Uh, I hate to tell you but most healthy bone stock L98 TPI's make 205 to 220rwhp. Plenty of those are on TGO's website which makes the crank horsepower more close to 260-270 which means GM fudged the numbers abit. That's okay though.
But there are way too many things to cover with you via email like this but I could go all day about how there are alot of "TPI" 350's making over 350rwhp. I'm sure you've been on TGO but maybe not. I don't know.
However, my car isn't going to be a TPI anymore very soon. If you noticed on my videos, I'm switching. My goal is nothing big, just a modest 400rwhp and 450 foot of torque to drive/race on the street/strip/highway. The HSR will more than be able to do that with the combo I'll be doing. But you need to remember something, LSX maybe what is cool now and one day that'll be gone too. As for the LT1 stuff, no thank you. Too many problems with those intakes and the HSR is a much better choice. If I choose to I can just throw a procharger on my ride or turbo it later and have a good stroker kit and make over 420rwhp. I'm still weighing on which one to get but a turbo 350 with an aftermarket intake/heads/exhaust will make so much torque and horsepower that it'll be amazing. There are some of those vids on Youtube now that I think of it.
More than enough to be happy with.
02-01-2011, 02:01 PM
#16
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People love to claim that the TPI "makes as much torque" or, as stated by his rebuttle above "plenty make 350rwhp", but that is over such a small power band. If you compare the power bands of 350rwhp LSX to that of a 350 rwhp TPI, the choice becomes obvious. One is a one hit wonder with the other being a flat wide beast. An LS6 top end will support more power and be cheaper than an HSR intake, which costs over $1500 at the minimum. Not to mention, how much will he spend on the bottom end, fueling, and tuning of his GenI? The term "moddest" is missleading. A 400+rwhp TPI is not as "moddest" as a 400+rwhp LSX. Its at the high end of that set-up and at the mercy of the tuning limitations of generations ECM. The $ per HP rule cannot compare to the LSX platform. The only consideration that remains is platform adaptabilty. You will be forced to make changes to a non LSX platform to make it work. That is the cost you need to consider. Not about power.
