99 E36 M3 LSx Build
Ckpitt - I would design the mounts to allow for a 1 degree op angle and leave the option to shim later if needed up to a 3 degree op angle. Back when I was messing around with this, my final operation angle ended up at 1.6 degrees. And surprisely that extra 0.1 degrees really can make or break yoke vibrations. It was a lot of trial and error. Looks good though man, love the ingenuity.
Really hoping to get under the car this weekend and get some things done.
Last edited by ckpitt55; Nov 7, 2014 at 06:54 AM.
I completed both of my alignment fixtures over the weekend and started working on my motor mounts
Initially I had press fit the laser into place but discovered that I was tracing out about a 3" circle over a distance of about 9' once I put it on the output shaft of the trans and spun it around - meaning the laser wasn't shooting on center. So I traded the press fit for clearance and drilled for two sets of set screws at 4 places around the perimeter, each pair being 90 degrees apart. Then I pushed the laser around with the set screws until I got no visible motion from the beam when spinning.
I did the same with my differential fixture (shown here bolted to the pinion flange) and was able to achieve similar results. Takes some patience to walk it in but it lets you hone in on center very accurately.
Also got a start on my motor mounts - these will make more sense in context but figured I'd show them anyway. These are going to bolt to the rubber isolators on the subframe - from here all I need is a notched piece of tubing connecting them to the ls motor mount plates that bolt to the block - a lot of people have these for sale on ebay and similar places for dirt cheap. I think I paid $20 shipped for the pair.
Also powdercoated the steam vent parts so that project is officially wrapped up (save for final assembly and leak checking).
Initially I had press fit the laser into place but discovered that I was tracing out about a 3" circle over a distance of about 9' once I put it on the output shaft of the trans and spun it around - meaning the laser wasn't shooting on center. So I traded the press fit for clearance and drilled for two sets of set screws at 4 places around the perimeter, each pair being 90 degrees apart. Then I pushed the laser around with the set screws until I got no visible motion from the beam when spinning.
I did the same with my differential fixture (shown here bolted to the pinion flange) and was able to achieve similar results. Takes some patience to walk it in but it lets you hone in on center very accurately.
Also got a start on my motor mounts - these will make more sense in context but figured I'd show them anyway. These are going to bolt to the rubber isolators on the subframe - from here all I need is a notched piece of tubing connecting them to the ls motor mount plates that bolt to the block - a lot of people have these for sale on ebay and similar places for dirt cheap. I think I paid $20 shipped for the pair.
Also powdercoated the steam vent parts so that project is officially wrapped up (save for final assembly and leak checking).
Made some decent progress this weekend
Got the engine and transmission situated where they need to be. Here's my alignment with the diff. Shooting rearward towards diff flange:
Shooting forward towards transmission:
Since the beams are directly above one another from both directions, the components are on center with each other. General engine placement
Engine mounts welded out
Engine sitting on its own mounts for the first time. Maintained all my angles so nothing moved during the welding process.
I also measured for the driveshaft length I need, so need to get that shortened before I make the transmission mount. I built the engine mounts with the transmission already matching the pitch of the diff pinion but want to leave myself with room to fine tune the driveshaft running angle if need be.
More soon, thanks for looking
Got the engine and transmission situated where they need to be. Here's my alignment with the diff. Shooting rearward towards diff flange:
Shooting forward towards transmission:
Since the beams are directly above one another from both directions, the components are on center with each other. General engine placement
Engine mounts welded out
Engine sitting on its own mounts for the first time. Maintained all my angles so nothing moved during the welding process.
I also measured for the driveshaft length I need, so need to get that shortened before I make the transmission mount. I built the engine mounts with the transmission already matching the pitch of the diff pinion but want to leave myself with room to fine tune the driveshaft running angle if need be.
More soon, thanks for looking
Interesting setup. I dont think there is a set of mounts like that anywhere (yes, I know they are home made, lol). Very isometrical, I approve! One question though. You say those are stock BMW mounts? What gives with the 6" stems? Who what where are those about?
What did you end up doing for the left/right engine placement? With the tailshaft lined up with the pinion shaft, did the crank CL sit right in the middle of the chassis, or, do you have the motor cocked? Kinda curious as I dont see any exhaust on there, so, I am wondering if the cart is before the horse, or, your just going to keep on breaking bad and spown another engineering feat with the exhaust?
To add to that, looks like you have a lot of room between the pan and the subframe, do my eyes see correctly? If thats the case, LS1 camaro pans just seem to be a fad and not needed? The truck pans are like 2.x" or so where the LS1 is 1" 3/8, or something like that, in the front and seem perfectly capable at $50 as opposed to $250 .
You have a side view of oil pan and sub frame you could share? I am tryingo tsee how far you can scoot forward with that thing.
What did you end up doing for the left/right engine placement? With the tailshaft lined up with the pinion shaft, did the crank CL sit right in the middle of the chassis, or, do you have the motor cocked? Kinda curious as I dont see any exhaust on there, so, I am wondering if the cart is before the horse, or, your just going to keep on breaking bad and spown another engineering feat with the exhaust?
To add to that, looks like you have a lot of room between the pan and the subframe, do my eyes see correctly? If thats the case, LS1 camaro pans just seem to be a fad and not needed? The truck pans are like 2.x" or so where the LS1 is 1" 3/8, or something like that, in the front and seem perfectly capable at $50 as opposed to $250 .
You have a side view of oil pan and sub frame you could share? I am tryingo tsee how far you can scoot forward with that thing.
Last edited by csmc711; Nov 17, 2014 at 08:05 AM.
What did you end up doing for the left/right engine placement? With the tailshaft lined up with the pinion shaft, did the crank CL sit right in the middle of the chassis, or, do you have the motor cocked? Kinda curious as I dont see any exhaust on there, so, I am wondering if the cart is before the horse, or, your just going to keep on breaking bad and spown another engineering feat with the exhaust?
Exhaust is next. I'm building my own long tube headers.
To add to that, looks like you have a lot of room between the pan and the subframe, do my eyes see correctly? If thats the case, LS1 camaro pans just seem to be a fad and not needed? The truck pans are like 2.x" or so where the LS1 is 1" 3/8, or something like that, in the front and seem perfectly capable at $50 as opposed to $250 .
You have a side view of oil pan and sub frame you could share? I am tryingo tsee how far you can scoot forward with that thing.
You have a side view of oil pan and sub frame you could share? I am tryingo tsee how far you can scoot forward with that thing.
Here's where I ended up relative to the firewall. Can only shove it so far back because of the intake manifold. Some light transmission tunnel "massaging" was required to tuck it in like this. No idea what clearances would look like with the stock bellhousing.
Last edited by ckpitt55; Nov 17, 2014 at 08:58 AM.
"To be clear, I really don't care about engine placement relative to the chassis. I'm setting it up to be deadnuts on-center with the diff and achieve proper driveline geometry."
I know. I am just curious what you ended up with since you have already done it. I am NOT (least I hope not) building my own headers, so, with your deadnuts on-center alignment, I am wondering how much room that gives a pre made exhaust system on the drivers side. Also gives me a good starting point/reference right off the bat.
Cant upload a picture to show what I am talking about until I get home, but, the mounts in picture 3 do not look like anything you made in picture 4 or 5, unless I am blind and just cant see it very well because it is dark in there.
Some other pans I have seen may have a 2" dip in the front, but, one or two d onot have that step, its more sloped. If one was to measure back to where that step was/is, I would assume as long as the gradual slope doesnt get any thicker at that point, she is still good to go. Again, good references to check into, thanks.
Also, thanks for the pics. Good to see it in action!
I know. I am just curious what you ended up with since you have already done it. I am NOT (least I hope not) building my own headers, so, with your deadnuts on-center alignment, I am wondering how much room that gives a pre made exhaust system on the drivers side. Also gives me a good starting point/reference right off the bat.
Cant upload a picture to show what I am talking about until I get home, but, the mounts in picture 3 do not look like anything you made in picture 4 or 5, unless I am blind and just cant see it very well because it is dark in there.
Some other pans I have seen may have a 2" dip in the front, but, one or two d onot have that step, its more sloped. If one was to measure back to where that step was/is, I would assume as long as the gradual slope doesnt get any thicker at that point, she is still good to go. Again, good references to check into, thanks.
Also, thanks for the pics. Good to see it in action!
Last edited by csmc711; Nov 17, 2014 at 10:44 AM.
Gotcha. Exhaust is going to be tight on the driver's side no matter what you do...
Picture 3 is before the mounts are built - the stubs are there for fitting up the diagonal as can be seen above.
Picture 3 is before the mounts are built - the stubs are there for fitting up the diagonal as can be seen above.
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Wow those last two primaries on the drivers side will be intense. I guess that means you might have to remove the steering shaft in order to install/remove the header... Correct?
Unless you can fit between the steering shaft and block. Looks like the primary will practically make a ~240 degree turn. Good luck buddy.
Edit: You could do a Tri-Y setup and fit around the steering shaft. However I'm not educated on required primary length prior to the first collector to maintain mid range torque.
Unless you can fit between the steering shaft and block. Looks like the primary will practically make a ~240 degree turn. Good luck buddy.
Edit: You could do a Tri-Y setup and fit around the steering shaft. However I'm not educated on required primary length prior to the first collector to maintain mid range torque.
Wow those last two primaries on the drivers side will be intense. I guess that means you might have to remove the steering shaft in order to install/remove the header... Correct?
Unless you can fit between the steering shaft and block. Looks like the primary will practically make a ~240 degree turn. Good luck buddy.
Edit: You could do a Tri-Y setup and fit around the steering shaft. However I'm not educated on required primary length prior to the first collector to maintain mid range torque.
Unless you can fit between the steering shaft and block. Looks like the primary will practically make a ~240 degree turn. Good luck buddy.
Edit: You could do a Tri-Y setup and fit around the steering shaft. However I'm not educated on required primary length prior to the first collector to maintain mid range torque.
Typically two primaries will route inside and two will route outside for guys that have made longtubes in this application before. I've done some research on primary lengths and collector positioning and all that, but the more I look at this the more I think that all the theoretical stuff is going to go out the window. I'm going to do my best to make a good performing header but ultimately I've only got so much room to work with. I'm thinking of doing a mockup in PVC and seeing what I can learn from that as a quick go-nogo.
I thought thats what it was but my mind was swaying from pipes to stems and couldnot quite make it out. When I commented, I went for the stems theory, lol.
How much you want for your LED alignment tools, lol?
How much you want for your LED alignment tools, lol?
Last edited by csmc711; Nov 20, 2014 at 07:25 PM.
Assuming you're using the 4-bolt diff flange, you could probably use that one as-is. I'd need to make you a new trans tool though to accurately pilot on the output shaft of the t56. The t56 magnum that I'm using has a larger output shaft (31 spline vs. 27), so it would be a pretty sloppy fit for you as-is. Shoot me a pm if you're interested.
A little progress over the past week - got my driveshaft shortened / balanced / assembled and received the transmission isolator. For anyone in the Pittsburgh area, Driveline Service of Pittsburgh comes highly recommended. I dropped it off at lunch time and they were done by 2:30pm the same day. The driveshaft is a single piece 2.75" steel with 1310 receptacles on it. To adapt the 31 spline slip yoke that is sized for 1330, I just used a 1310-1330 conversion u-joint. The isolator is the Prothane urethane mount that is sold for f-body t56's, fits the magnum just fine.
Got my final drive angles set and ended up with ~1' u-joint operating angles on both sides. Just need to build my trans mount and then I'll be moving on to headers.
Got my final drive angles set and ended up with ~1' u-joint operating angles on both sides. Just need to build my trans mount and then I'll be moving on to headers.
Last edited by ckpitt55; Nov 22, 2014 at 12:12 PM.
Im soooo jealous your at this stage, lol, but, cant wait to see what you do for headers. Thats really the only thing stopping me from advancing. I need to find an exhaust that works for me and a 4l80e before I can order it, and, or, fit it in the car. That will tell me where the motor mounts have to be. If it wasnt for that, I would be right there with you. 
Did you ever think of keeping the 2 piece? I mean it is there, so, why not use it? I have not looked into why or why not, but, seems logical.
Keep us informed Sensay.
Did you ever think of keeping the 2 piece? I mean it is there, so, why not use it? I have not looked into why or why not, but, seems logical.
Keep us informed Sensay.
Im soooo jealous your at this stage, lol, but, cant wait to see what you do for headers. Thats really the only thing stopping me from advancing. I need to find an exhaust that works for me and a 4l80e before I can order it, and, or, fit it in the car. That will tell me where the motor mounts have to be. If it wasnt for that, I would be right there with you.
Did you ever think of keeping the 2 piece? I mean it is there, so, why not use it? I have not looked into why or why not, but, seems logical.
Keep us informed Sensay.
Did you ever think of keeping the 2 piece? I mean it is there, so, why not use it? I have not looked into why or why not, but, seems logical.
Keep us informed Sensay.
Last edited by ckpitt55; Nov 22, 2014 at 07:31 PM.
TECH Resident
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 954
Likes: 9
From: Encinitas CA
Did you consider a hydraulic brake booster? Much more room for that. I bought a new delco unit on Amazon for less than $150. It was from a 2010 Silverado 3/4 ton I think. With your skills adapting would be simple. Hoses could probably use off the shelf. I have a 51 ford truck with master underneath so I made custom hoses due to distance between the pump and booster unit.
Well, I wonder how complicated?? They already have set angles from the carrier to the center bearing. I am lucky I have two I can check on one while working on the other, but, if the tranny tail is close enough to the original, I would assume there is wiggle room if not right on to run it?
I know your an engineer, so, you have a few ups on the rest, not to mention i am sure you have put a lot of thought into it, but, a lot of people are concerned with vibrations they are getting. Not sure if it is because they didn't do it right, or, another factor involved, but.... Just saying, lol.
I know your not speaking to me, but, I thought about the hydraulic brake boosters. I cant speak for ckpitt55, but, I have heard enough stories about leaking units to want to go that route. Would be okay if they could be rebuilt, but, from what I have read, its near impossible to rebuild the part that leaks. Im not ready for that headache myself. If it wanst for that, "I" would go with one.
ckpitt55 ???
I know your an engineer, so, you have a few ups on the rest, not to mention i am sure you have put a lot of thought into it, but, a lot of people are concerned with vibrations they are getting. Not sure if it is because they didn't do it right, or, another factor involved, but.... Just saying, lol.
I know your not speaking to me, but, I thought about the hydraulic brake boosters. I cant speak for ckpitt55, but, I have heard enough stories about leaking units to want to go that route. Would be okay if they could be rebuilt, but, from what I have read, its near impossible to rebuild the part that leaks. Im not ready for that headache myself. If it wanst for that, "I" would go with one.
ckpitt55 ???
Originally Posted by DW SD
Did you consider a hydraulic brake booster? Much more room for that. I bought a new delco unit on Amazon for less than $150. It was from a 2010 Silverado 3/4 ton I think. With your skills adapting would be simple. Hoses could probably use off the shelf. I have a 51 ford truck with master underneath so I made custom hoses due to distance between the pump and booster unit.
Well, I wonder how complicated?? They already have set angles from the carrier to the center bearing. I am lucky I have two I can check on one while working on the other, but, if the tranny tail is close enough to the original, I would assume there is wiggle room if not right on to run it?
I know your an engineer, so, you have a few ups on the rest, not to mention i am sure you have put a lot of thought into it, but, a lot of people are concerned with vibrations they are getting. Not sure if it is because they didn't do it right, or, another factor involved, but.... Just saying, lol.
I know your an engineer, so, you have a few ups on the rest, not to mention i am sure you have put a lot of thought into it, but, a lot of people are concerned with vibrations they are getting. Not sure if it is because they didn't do it right, or, another factor involved, but.... Just saying, lol.
Anything is possible though - all depends on how well you can get everything aligned. I'll say that the way I did it isn't the only way to do this - I just never happened to consider that approach for my build. If I was building a bigger car like an e39 that required a longer driveshaft I would have absolutely considered a two piece. Based on my research it seemed to be unnecessary in an e36. Your mileage may vary.