Hooker Fbody Swap, BAD EXPERIENCE
I don't want to come off as a smartass, but looking at this from a business perspective, the time and expense of dealing with this will exceed the 10 hours of labor and aggravation you wish to be compensated for. I know you're a little steamed right now and can understand why--we've all had some setback in our respective projects that we thought could have been prevented if a maker or vendor had done a bit more homework or QA.
I'm pissed at FAST right now. I've got a efi system that arrived new with bad wiring and a faulty map sensor.I'm out 10 + hours of troubleshooting and I've got a track event this weekend. It didn't even occur to me to ding them for my labor, as I've already factored Murphys Law into my build. Not worth the bother and high blood pressure. Yes, i will try to stick them for parts. If that fails, reputational damage will be next on my list. After that, I'm done. I can't keep focusing on a grudge without it costing me elsewhere.
Life is too short.
I'm pissed at FAST right now. I've got a efi system that arrived new with bad wiring and a faulty map sensor.I'm out 10 + hours of troubleshooting and I've got a track event this weekend. It didn't even occur to me to ding them for my labor, as I've already factored Murphys Law into my build. Not worth the bother and high blood pressure. Yes, i will try to stick them for parts. If that fails, reputational damage will be next on my list. After that, I'm done. I can't keep focusing on a grudge without it costing me elsewhere.
Life is too short.
Agreed. I've made my point on this forum already and will continue to share my stories with others. They can decide on their own.
Yes I will and already started the process on principal. Agreed, tons of time wasted on this already, I hate to waste more. I'm not bashing, I'm sharing a true story. You consider it bashing because its pretty absurd and I agree.
So your going to take a 100million dollar company to court over these items not fitting to your standards? you had the option to return these parts for a full refund and chose not to do so. you are the one that spent 10+ hrs test fitting, no one requested this to be done for development. you have also spent enough time bashing on here to remove the items and have them on the way back for the full refund. there are so many variables between older cars there is no way to accommodate all of them. I know for a fact that Holley will work with you on the return of these items and will listen to your findings during the 10+hr install if you want to share the info, but I highly doubt they will send you engineering salary for your time spent. id be more concerned about getting my car on the road and enjoying it then bashing on a forum. this is all just my opinion. good luck to you and your build.
Yeah Im with Holley on this one. Trust me I bought sold and returned several different items through out this build and the holley stuff was some of the best fitting I have had. Not to mention Todd has gone above and beyond to help anyone out on there that had a question. I contacted one company to try to get a measurement on a motor mounts and they would not answer basic questions nor give me a simple measurement when I asked if I could order them and if they didnt fit return them only for them to inform me there was a 25% restocking fee.
My honest opinion. If this if going to be you response for every part you buy that doesnt fit 100% correctly on the first shot you should give up on this build now. Its only going to get worse the more parts you bolt on.
My honest opinion. If this if going to be you response for every part you buy that doesnt fit 100% correctly on the first shot you should give up on this build now. Its only going to get worse the more parts you bolt on.
You are assuming that tech was available. Heck, I probably wouldn't be so steamed had I not tried reaching tech 4x and waited continually with no response. At one point I reached tech after an hour wait and was hung up on over bad connection. That was day 3...
I have built many cars over the years, both smooth and not so smooth builds. When I had fitment issues or questionable concerns about the part, I would call the tech line. If there response did not suit my expectations, I would then arrange to ship the part back instead of reinventing the wheel. Compared to 35 years ago when I built my first car, the quality is better now but there is still some "backyard" mechanic engineering needed from time to time. That is what hot rodding is all about unless you have the big bucks to have someone build it for you.
It has been discovered by yourself and Holley that the early Firebird and Camaro subframes have different engine mount hole pattern layouts, which requires a deviation in the drilling procedure listed for the Camaro to get them in installed in a Firebird such as yours.
Other than that difference, the parts fit both vehicles. The crossmember includes two angle brackets that are used to attach the crossmember to the side wall of the subframe when there is an alignment disparity between your trans mount and the top holes in the frame; it's defined on page 3 of the crossmember instructions in step #5. You chose to do it another way instead of asking to return the product(s) if you didn't like the installation method/requirements as mentioned by another previous poster.
Even after that, Holley offered to give you a full refund for the parts and you think that is somehow underhanded?
There is a 71 Firebird similar to yours being assembled in the lab right now using the same engine brackets and crossmember as you have and aside from the revision to the hole drilling operation for the mounts everything bolted right in due to the fact that the crossmember instructions were followed as written.
You're obviously not satisfied with the parts, so why not send them back?
Other than that difference, the parts fit both vehicles. The crossmember includes two angle brackets that are used to attach the crossmember to the side wall of the subframe when there is an alignment disparity between your trans mount and the top holes in the frame; it's defined on page 3 of the crossmember instructions in step #5. You chose to do it another way instead of asking to return the product(s) if you didn't like the installation method/requirements as mentioned by another previous poster.
Even after that, Holley offered to give you a full refund for the parts and you think that is somehow underhanded?
There is a 71 Firebird similar to yours being assembled in the lab right now using the same engine brackets and crossmember as you have and aside from the revision to the hole drilling operation for the mounts everything bolted right in due to the fact that the crossmember instructions were followed as written.
You're obviously not satisfied with the parts, so why not send them back?
Incorrect again Todd. See below. My vehicle did have the proper holes in the subframe and was installed according to the instructions. The angle brackets are used in the instructions only if you don't have the subframe with the prepunched holes. I chose to install it per instructions, which by the way, required removal of the subframe and changing it on the fly is not easy.
"5. If your vehicle is an earlier model with pre-punched factory holes present in the subframe at the location of the crossmember, use
the holes to attach the crossmember with the supplied nuts and bolts and skip to step 6 now. If your vehicle is a later model that
does not have corresponding holes present in the frame in the area of the crossmember, proceed to step A below."
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 625
Likes: 0
From: Raleigh, NC
I think you are being unreasonable.
I believe Holley has offered you a reasonable solution.
Frankly your time is worth zero. If you don't want your time to be worth zero, don't participate in a hobby.
I believe Holley has offered you a reasonable solution.
Frankly your time is worth zero. If you don't want your time to be worth zero, don't participate in a hobby.
You are entitled to your opinion of course. I'm positive you would feel differently had you experienced the level of misinformation and bad service I received. From an outside perspective I'm sure it appears as whining and hence your response. Nonetheless, thanks for participating in the discussion.
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Let me close this out since the thread has gone from me telling my story to "we don't care about your wasted time". That's all fine, opinions are opinions and I appreciate you keeping this alive for more to see
FACT:
Holley sold a product with improper marketing that doesn't fit. This has been acknowledged.
OPINION:
I would surmise there are many other products in their arsenal with the same issues.
FACT:
There are cheaper options out there in which you can anticipate a custom install as that is how THOSE products are advertised.
OPINION:
If I had to do it again I would not have let someone persuade me to use Holley for the ease and engineering.
Everyone else its up to you. Good luck with your builds all!
FACT:
Holley sold a product with improper marketing that doesn't fit. This has been acknowledged.
OPINION:
I would surmise there are many other products in their arsenal with the same issues.
FACT:
There are cheaper options out there in which you can anticipate a custom install as that is how THOSE products are advertised.
OPINION:
If I had to do it again I would not have let someone persuade me to use Holley for the ease and engineering.
Everyone else its up to you. Good luck with your builds all!
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 330
Likes: 1
From: Chicago, Illinois (far south)
I too used Holley/Hooker engine mounts and cross member in my 71 Ls3/4L60E swap. When setting up the template, I immediately noticed that it seemed 'off' just before drilling. I decided to install the mounts to the engine and drop it in to see exactly where everything would land using the trans cross member as a location point. I was happy I didn't drill it before as it would have been way off. I contacted Holley to see what may be the issue. I was told that my sub frame was incorrect and may have been changed. I did feel as though they blew me off a bit explaining to them that everything else fit on the vehicle so how could this be?
I still used all their components but had to mark where the mounts had to be drilled. I still feel they make excellent products despite this issue. It looks like this may be resolved soon...I feel sooner if they would've looked into it when I brought it up.
The biggest pain in the *** was dropping the motor in a few times trying not scratch anything.
I talked about it here in Post #42:
http://transamcountry.com/community/...topic=68544.40
The world of car building is not an exact science. It seems to me that Holley is willing to give you your money back for their product. Your time on is on you as you decided to modify what was working in the beginning.
I still used all their components but had to mark where the mounts had to be drilled. I still feel they make excellent products despite this issue. It looks like this may be resolved soon...I feel sooner if they would've looked into it when I brought it up.
The biggest pain in the *** was dropping the motor in a few times trying not scratch anything.
I talked about it here in Post #42:
http://transamcountry.com/community/...topic=68544.40
The world of car building is not an exact science. It seems to me that Holley is willing to give you your money back for their product. Your time on is on you as you decided to modify what was working in the beginning.
Yeah you had the same prob for sure. I sent them multiple photos of different frames and they have/are revising instructions. I also sent them a template of the actual mounting hole locations.
As a further update Mr Shane Wickerly the VP of engineering contacted me a very professionally apologized. They are working with me to make it right and for that I am thankful.
As a further update Mr Shane Wickerly the VP of engineering contacted me a very professionally apologized. They are working with me to make it right and for that I am thankful.
I too used Holley/Hooker engine mounts and cross member in my 71 Ls3/4L60E swap. When setting up the template, I immediately noticed that it seemed 'off' just before drilling. I decided to install the mounts to the engine and drop it in to see exactly where everything would land using the trans cross member as a location point. I was happy I didn't drill it before as it would have been way off. I contacted Holley to see what may be the issue. I was told that my sub frame was incorrect and may have been changed. I did feel as though they blew me off a bit explaining to them that everything else fit on the vehicle so how could this be?
I still used all their components but had to mark where the mounts had to be drilled. I still feel they make excellent products despite this issue. It looks like this may be resolved soon...I feel sooner if they would've looked into it when I brought it up.
The biggest pain in the *** was dropping the motor in a few times trying not scratch anything.
I talked about it here in Post #42:
http://transamcountry.com/community/...topic=68544.40
The world of car building is not an exact science. It seems to me that Holley is willing to give you your money back for their product. Your time on is on you as you decided to modify what was working in the beginning.
I still used all their components but had to mark where the mounts had to be drilled. I still feel they make excellent products despite this issue. It looks like this may be resolved soon...I feel sooner if they would've looked into it when I brought it up.
The biggest pain in the *** was dropping the motor in a few times trying not scratch anything.
I talked about it here in Post #42:
http://transamcountry.com/community/...topic=68544.40
The world of car building is not an exact science. It seems to me that Holley is willing to give you your money back for their product. Your time on is on you as you decided to modify what was working in the beginning.
I fully understand your frustration since i started building my car being i went mostly all custom nothing i buy seems to fit without some sort of work or mod! It just gets old after a while but after 3 years into it i have grown to expect it now i assume everything i buy needs work to fit regardless of what those directions say!
You said your peace and i would be unhappy also but dont waste more time or money you made the parts work just move on life is to short!
Good luck either way~!
You said your peace and i would be unhappy also but dont waste more time or money you made the parts work just move on life is to short!
Good luck either way~!
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 732
Likes: 1
From: alburnett, iowa
just grab some booze get into garage on work it out. crank the radio to whatever cuss it kick the tires, throw a wrench. when all done its still there tomorrow. thats supposed to be the the thing you figure it out & move on something else that needs finished.
Bottom line: the people at Holley give a ****.
When making parts for 40 year old cars, there are a ton of issues to deal with. Sometimes you find out that GM (or other makers) did goofy things. The 1st ten F-body subframes were drilled for both Chevrolet and Pontiac engine stands. The same was true for 64-72 GM a-bodies. My 1970 GTO's front crossmember looked like Swiss cheese from the factory because all the different bolt patterns for the various engine clones were there. So it wasn't a big stretch to think that later F-bodies had all the holes there regardless of the clone variety. Clearly that was not the case, but Holley is fixing it, which is more than can be said for a lot of other aftermarket companies.
Andrew
When making parts for 40 year old cars, there are a ton of issues to deal with. Sometimes you find out that GM (or other makers) did goofy things. The 1st ten F-body subframes were drilled for both Chevrolet and Pontiac engine stands. The same was true for 64-72 GM a-bodies. My 1970 GTO's front crossmember looked like Swiss cheese from the factory because all the different bolt patterns for the various engine clones were there. So it wasn't a big stretch to think that later F-bodies had all the holes there regardless of the clone variety. Clearly that was not the case, but Holley is fixing it, which is more than can be said for a lot of other aftermarket companies.
Andrew