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If anybody is thinking about getting the Hooker second gen Fbody swap kit, you may be interested in my experience. I have lost all faith in their company from my correspondence with them as well.
I purchased the 70-74 Fbody swap plates, trans crossmember, and headers. You have to swap early Fbody subframe stands offs with later GM clamshell mounts. Hooker's kit is advertised and coming with a template for GM clamshell mounts and engineered for proper drive line angle.
I waited (3) weeks for their back ordered parts only to receive a swap template that doesn't actually template my car. The alignment doesn't line up AT ALL. I spent several hours over (3) days trying to reach their customer service. When I finally did reach them, they were unaware that the Firebird and Camaro had different mount orientations in 70-74 and also depends on original powertrain in each.
I then spent another (6) hours test fitting and mocking up their mounts to report back to them the solution. They acknowledged a problem and said they were going to fix it. Now at this point I'm not happy having spent all this time on something I paid a premium for to be an engineered kit. This install should have been a simple bolt in.
I asked Holley for consideration since they sold me a bill of goods that didn't pan out. I was told I could uninstall the parts and send them back for a refund. I'm not quite sure that squares things up since I know have 10 hours in this, your thoughts? I would expect a comp on the crossmember and mounts personally.
Pic below of the engine / trans installed after I modified their "pre-engineered" cross member and then drilled new holes in my subframe for their "templated" brackets.
Isn't it wonderful working on T/A's instead of Camaros?
I wouldn't expect anything from them. I'm surprised they'll let you return the kit at all. Since you already went through the hassle of getting the engine in and making the parts work I'd just keep it.
That sucks big time, but I doubt you will get anything other than a full refund for the parts.
You could try to get a 10% discount off the corrected kit when it comes out but that will likely be months and I'm sure your ready to install.
Might just have to bite the bullet on the time lost and move on with a refund.
If you requested a partial refund and they offered you full refund instead, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Getting a full refund would allow you to purchase alternative components that you feel would suit your needs better. I'm not sure how a partial refund on products your not happy with would be better than that?
Todd,
They offered a full refund if I spend another couple hours uninstalling the parts I modified to work and return them. That would be a further loss of effort which I'm not sure makes sense. Would you be ok with someone spinning your wheels for 10 hours under false pretenses?
Originally Posted by Toddoky
If you requested a partial refund and they offered you full refund instead, that sounds pretty reasonable to me. Getting a full refund would allow you to purchase alternative components that you feel would suit your needs better. I'm not sure how a partial refund on products your not happy with would be better than that?
Todd,
They offered a full refund if I spend another couple hours uninstalling the parts I modified to work and return them. That would be a further loss of effort which I'm not sure makes sense. Would you be ok with someone spinning your wheels for 10 hours under false pretenses?
I can surely empathize with the annoyance of the loss of your time, but it's obvious that some type of offer has to be made by the manufacturer to resolve the matter and bring it to a close, and I don't know of any other company that will take a return on installed parts and offer a full refund these days. I don't know the details of the 10 hours of wheel spinning you are referencing, so I can't make a judgment in that regard as to whether I would be OK with the same kind of full refund offer if it was made to me.
This a tough one on both parts, yes you wasted your time, but at the same time if you felt it wasn't engineered correctly and you paid a nice penny I'm sure, I might have stopped right there and requested a refund before trying to make it work? I found with the majority of swap stuff I bought, in most cases nothing didn't fit or work like advertised.
I did my swap in 2008-2010 and there was very few if any kits available, and the parts I did buy it seemed I had to grind or hammer or weld or throw it against the wall to make it work, but there was no alternatives back then other than making your own parts which I eventually did on a number of parts and they came out better than the "engineered bolt on crap" I paid good money for.
Now there are quite a few options out there, I think I would have stopped and sent what you felt was crap from the get go back.
Agreed. Prob best play in hindsight. Although I still would have been shafted with the delays. Also to clarify, it's not that these parts didn't fit well... They were actually engineered incorrectly for this application. They were flat out wrong.
Moral of the story is that Holley / Hooker is no more reputable than your sleazy garage shop in the shady part of town.
Originally Posted by lizeec
This a tough one on both parts, yes you wasted your time, but at the same time if you felt it wasn't engineered correctly and you paid a nice penny I'm sure, I might have stopped right there and requested a refund before trying to make it work? I found with the majority of swap stuff I bought, in most cases nothing didn't fit or work like advertised.
I did my swap in 2008-2010 and there was very few if any kits available, and the parts I did buy it seemed I had to grind or hammer or weld or throw it against the wall to make it work, but there was no alternatives back then other than making your own parts which I eventually did on a number of parts and they came out better than the "engineered bolt on crap" I paid good money for.
Now there are quite a few options out there, I think I would have stopped and sent what you felt was crap from the get go back.
Last edited by blswan; 04-08-2015 at 04:48 PM.
Reason: Clarify
Agreed. Prob best play in hindsight. Although I still would have been shafted with the delays. Also to clarify, it's not that these parts didn't fit well... They were actually engineered incorrectly for this application. They were flat out wrong.
Moral of the story is that Holley / Hooker is no more reputable than your sleazy garage shop in the shady part of town.
It has been discovered by yourself and Holley that the early Firebird and Camaro subframes have different engine mount hole pattern layouts, which requires a deviation in the drilling procedure listed for the Camaro to get them in installed in a Firebird such as yours.
Other than that difference, the parts fit both vehicles. The crossmember includes two angle brackets that are used to attach the crossmember to the side wall of the subframe when there is an alignment disparity between your trans mount and the top holes in the frame; it's defined on page 3 of the crossmember instructions in step #5. You chose to do it another way instead of asking to return the product(s) if you didn't like the installation method/requirements as mentioned by another previous poster.
Even after that, Holley offered to give you a full refund for the parts and you think that is somehow underhanded?
There is a 71 Firebird similar to yours being assembled in the lab right now using the same engine brackets and crossmember as you have and aside from the revision to the hole drilling operation for the mounts everything bolted right in due to the fact that the crossmember instructions were followed as written.
You're obviously not satisfied with the parts, so why not send them back?
You're obviously affiliated with Holley via other posts so your opinion is not unbiased nor what I requested. Further your ignorant comments to the situation are unnecessary as you are only providing info second hand.
First and foremost, this kit is marketed solely to THE EARLY CAMARO AND FIREBIRD. Its a 70-74 which is different than the later versions. It is marketed as a direct engineered swap to save time and money.
Second, yes the cross member fits between the rails. So does a $100 universal unit. The Holley was supposed to be a bolt in app. The cross member fits but because their mount plate orientation is incorrect, the T56 mount and studs do not line up with the Holley holes on the cross member. This has nothing to do with the angle brackets, this unit lines up properly. It has to do with the fact that the trans doe not because of their mistake on the mounts. Stop spreading bad defensive assumptions.
Holley is offering me a full refund after I have spent 10 plus hours HELPING them figure out their problem and wasting my time. After I figured out how to modify their parts and install them. Now I am to uninstall them and send them back for a further waste of time? This is square one?
You are obviously not a business person so let me explain what you do in this situation. I am a business person, I own three different businesses. Last year a customer ordered $6000 worth of chairs from me for a franchise. I informed him that these were franchise approved chairs. The chairs got their, they were unpacked, and the customer was happy. The franchise decided the shade of the wood was off. So did I tell the customer to spend his time packing up my chairs, shipping them back to me, and then I would refund his money? No! I told him to keep them and I returned his money.
The moral of the story is when you inconvenience a customer to the extreme, you try to make amends.
As it stands I am going to take Hooker/Holley to claims court and submit them a bill for my mechanics time who helped me test mount and install the kit. It was falsely advertised, cost me time, and cost me money. Case closed.
Originally Posted by Toddoky
It has been discovered by yourself and Holley that the early Firebird and Camaro subframes have different engine mount hole pattern layouts, which requires a deviation in the drilling procedure listed for the Camaro to get them in installed in a Firebird such as yours.
Other than that difference, the parts fit both vehicles. The crossmember includes two angle brackets that are used to attach the crossmember to the side wall of the subframe when there is an alignment disparity between your trans mount and the top holes in the frame; it's defined on page 3 of the crossmember instructions in step #5. You chose to do it another way instead of asking to return the product(s) if you didn't like the installation method/requirements as mentioned by another previous poster.
Even after that, Holley offered to give you a full refund for the parts and you think that is somehow underhanded?
There is a 71 Firebird similar to yours being assembled in the lab right now using the same engine brackets and crossmember as you have and aside from the revision to the hole drilling operation for the mounts everything bolted right in due to the fact that the crossmember instructions were followed as written.
You're obviously not satisfied with the parts, so why not send them back?
I have and all Todd has done is become defensive. Hooker/Holley has made no attempts other than to say send it back.
They took my money, then told me the product was backordered 3 weeks. They sent me improperly engineered parts then I had to call (4) times and wait (4) hours just to reach tech. I reached tech and they said their should be no problems. I then had to research, take photos, and basically prove to tech the mount holes were different.
After a month delay in the project, wasted hours of my time, bad service, the answer is "uninstall the stuff and send it back".
As mentioned, I'm just going to take them to court. I don't need the money, I make a ton of it. I was going to take them to small claims but they are avoiding sending me their contact info to be served. Next step is I'm just paying my attorney to go after them.
I just don't like bad service to this degree. It makes my skin crawl. I hate it when people waste my time and think its OK. Anytime I see a Holley/Hooker post on this forum or the others I'm on, I will share this story. At least I can help others from assuming they are going to get a quality product just by paying more for Holley Hooker stuff.
[QUOTE=Kansas Bu Wagon;18749540]Have you tried talking to Toddoky about your problems?
If you look at the 2nd gen preview thread, he welcomes any and all questions because he's the one who designed and prototyped it.
I don't want to come off as a smartass, but looking at this from a business perspective, the time and expense of dealing with this will exceed the 10 hours of labor and aggravation you wish to be compensated for. I know you're a little steamed right now and can understand why--we've all had some setback in our respective projects that we thought could have been prevented if a maker or vendor had done a bit more homework or QA.
I'm pissed at FAST right now. I've got a efi system that arrived new with bad wiring and a faulty map sensor.I'm out 10 + hours of troubleshooting and I've got a track event this weekend. It didn't even occur to me to ding them for my labor, as I've already factored Murphys Law into my build. Not worth the bother and high blood pressure. Yes, i will try to stick them for parts. If that fails, reputational damage will be next on my list. After that, I'm done. I can't keep focusing on a grudge without it costing me elsewhere.
[QUOTE=blswan;18750361]I have and all Todd has done is become defensive. Hooker/Holley has made no attempts other than to say send it back.
They took my money, then told me the product was backordered 3 weeks. They sent me improperly engineered parts then I had to call (4) times and wait (4) hours just to reach tech. I reached tech and they said their should be no problems. I then had to research, take photos, and basically prove to tech the mount holes were different.
After a month delay in the project, wasted hours of my time, bad service, the answer is "uninstall the stuff and send it back".
As mentioned, I'm just going to take them to court. I don't need the money, I make a ton of it. I was going to take them to small claims but they are avoiding sending me their contact info to be served. Next step is I'm just paying my attorney to go after them.
I just don't like bad service to this degree. It makes my skin crawl. I hate it when people waste my time and think its OK. Anytime I see a Holley/Hooker post on this forum or the others I'm on, I will share this story. At least I can help others from assuming they are going to get a quality product just by paying more for Holley Hooker stuff.
Originally Posted by Kansas Bu Wagon
Have you tried talking to Toddoky about your problems?
If you look at the 2nd gen preview thread, he welcomes any and all questions because he's the one who designed and prototyped it.
Defensive? No one is disputing that the components were exhibited not to be as you expected upon your installation attempt and that Holley was ignorant to the fact that the holes in the Firebird subframe have a different hole layout than a Camaro does until we brought one in recently to do a swap in one ourselves (using the exact same engine mount hole location as you). We used the angle brackets included with the crossmember to attach it to the subframe as it's designed to install in such case and is spelled out in the instructions. You choose not to like that arrangement, and I can't begrudge you for that as people's tastes are different.
That's all understandable and easily dealt with by the customer calling the business they bought the parts from (I assume you bought them from Summit or Jeg's) and asking to return them for a full refund. In your case you called Holley Techservice to report the discrepancy (which we really appreciate by the way) and before your predicament was full understood on our end you took it upon yourself to install them in such a manner that you personally thought was appropriate.
Your dissatisfaction with the parts is wholly understandable, but your disparaging remarks made towards the collective character of the folks that work at Holley who've made attempts to satisfy you is not in my opinion. Holley offered to give you a full refund on parts you choose to install in your car even though you knew you were not happy with them before doing so; in my opinion as a consumer, I'd choose to accept some amount of fault for the situation being what it is and consider it a reasonable fix to the problem.
The fact that you mention your intent to pursue legal action instead of returning the parts and accepting the full refund just means you and I have a different opinion as to what is reasonable.
We all participate in these forums to voice our opinions and I respect your right to have a different one than myself.
You're obviously affiliated with Holley via other posts so your opinion is not unbiased nor what I requested. Further your ignorant comments to the situation are unnecessary as you are only providing info second hand.
First and foremost, this kit is marketed solely to THE EARLY CAMARO AND FIREBIRD. Its a 70-74 which is different than the later versions. It is marketed as a direct engineered swap to save time and money.
Second, yes the cross member fits between the rails. So does a $100 universal unit. The Holley was supposed to be a bolt in app. The cross member fits but because their mount plate orientation is incorrect, the T56 mount and studs do not line up with the Holley holes on the cross member. This has nothing to do with the angle brackets, this unit lines up properly. It has to do with the fact that the trans doe not because of their mistake on the mounts. Stop spreading bad defensive assumptions.
Holley is offering me a full refund after I have spent 10 plus hours HELPING them figure out their problem and wasting my time. After I figured out how to modify their parts and install them. Now I am to uninstall them and send them back for a further waste of time? This is square one?
You are obviously not a business person so let me explain what you do in this situation. I am a business person, I own three different businesses. Last year a customer ordered $6000 worth of chairs from me for a franchise. I informed him that these were franchise approved chairs. The chairs got their, they were unpacked, and the customer was happy. The franchise decided the shade of the wood was off. So did I tell the customer to spend his time packing up my chairs, shipping them back to me, and then I would refund his money? No! I told him to keep them and I returned his money.
The moral of the story is when you inconvenience a customer to the extreme, you try to make amends.
As it stands I am going to take Hooker/Holley to claims court and submit them a bill for my mechanics time who helped me test mount and install the kit. It was falsely advertised, cost me time, and cost me money. Case closed.
So your going to take a 100million dollar company to court over these items not fitting to your standards? you had the option to return these parts for a full refund and chose not to do so. you are the one that spent 10+ hrs test fitting, no one requested this to be done for development. you have also spent enough time bashing on here to remove the items and have them on the way back for the full refund. there are so many variables between older cars there is no way to accommodate all of them. I know for a fact that Holley will work with you on the return of these items and will listen to your findings during the 10+hr install if you want to share the info, but I highly doubt they will send you engineering salary for your time spent. id be more concerned about getting my car on the road and enjoying it then bashing on a forum. this is all just my opinion. good luck to you and your build.
[QUOTE=blswan;18750361]...As mentioned, I'm just going to take them to court. I don't need the money, I make a ton of it. I was going to take them to small claims but they are avoiding sending me their contact info to be served. Next step is I'm just paying my attorney to go after them. ...
....
Originally Posted by Kansas Bu Wagon
Have you tried talking to Toddoky about your problems?
If you look at the 2nd gen preview thread, he welcomes any and all questions because he's the one who designed and prototyped it.
There is another customer that posted about fitment issues in a firebird. Todd replied to him using the pictures the customer posted in a very reasonable time frame. Your user ID never shows up in that thread asking questions. Did you even use this forum to help find a solution? Todd has even admitted to seeing the problem first hand, maybe after you found it, but they have acknowledged the problem exists and made a VERY reasonable offer to refund you for the parts if they are returned. As a hot rodder, I expect that there might be some rework/fabrication on these kits since GM did not always do the same thing across the makes back then. Make sense that the firebird sub-frame has different mounting holes for the Pontiac engine before things became standardized for costs later.
I saw in your build that you have CPP stuff. You admit their instructions suck and there was missing hardware. It was also parts that were engineered and sold for your car, but you don't seem to mind with those parts and you are not them...
I usually don't respond to posts like this, but after reading all your posts and many others on this subject, it just made my skin crawl that call yourself a hot rodder....Ok, I'm off my now.
So your going to take a 100million dollar company to court over these items not fitting to your standards? you had the option to return these parts for a full refund and chose not to do so. you are the one that spent 10+ hrs test fitting, no one requested this to be done for development. you have also spent enough time bashing on here to remove the items and have them on the way back for the full refund. there are so many variables between older cars there is no way to accommodate all of them. I know for a fact that Holley will work with you on the return of these items and will listen to your findings during the 10+hr install if you want to share the info, but I highly doubt they will send you engineering salary for your time spent. id be more concerned about getting my car on the road and enjoying it then bashing on a forum. this is all just my opinion. good luck to you and your build.
I have built many cars over the years, both smooth and not so smooth builds. When I had fitment issues or questionable concerns about the part, I would call the tech line. If there response did not suit my expectations, I would then arrange to ship the part back instead of reinventing the wheel. Compared to 35 years ago when I built my first car, the quality is better now but there is still some "backyard" mechanic engineering needed from time to time. That is what hot rodding is all about unless you have the big bucks to have someone build it for you.
Yes I have to agree well said. Everybody runs into a snag on a motor swap. It seems like you just want to take all of your frustation out on Hooker. Hooker made you a reasonable offer and that should be the end of it.
Welcome to cars. Since you're not capable of accepting that the aftermarket is an unmarked territory, please use your GPS to return yourself to the warm, comfy confines of stock, boring parts that offer no challenge in their service or replacement. While Holley does endeavor to offer parts that work across a range of a model, there will always be areas where an OEM difference in assembly or fitment is going to challenge the aftermarket installer. You need to accept that and return the parts since you're not capable of dealing with the reality of cars.
Originally Posted by RowJon13
Compared to 35 years ago when I built my first car, the quality is better now but there is still some "backyard" mechanic engineering needed from time to time. That is what hot rodding is all about unless you have the big bucks to have someone build it for you.
Well said. And information is HUGELY available now compared to years ago.
04-08-2015, 01:07 PM
Hooker Fbody Swap, BAD EXPERIENCE 
them...
now. 
