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Thanks for the response Todd. It makes more sense to be threading a steel bolt into steel threads. It just seemed weird that the bag was sealed and only torn at the drain plug area. I wasn’t overly worried about this issue or the blue Teflon cream on the filter adapter. I have purchased the pan and still waiting on the engine mount along with the trans X- member for my 70 Chevelle. This has been a long time coming as this was my first car and have owned it for the last 36 years. Thanks again, I’ve been following your swap components for a very long time before any of the chevelle stuff was designed.
That's awesome. I've owned my 70 GTO for 34 years, coming this spring. As I recall I got it in March or April of 1986...
Thanks for the response Todd. It makes more sense to be threading a steel bolt into steel threads. It just seemed weird that the bag was sealed and only torn at the drain plug area. I wasn’t overly worried about this issue or the blue Teflon cream on the filter adapter. I have purchased the pan and still waiting on the engine mount along with the trans X- member for my 70 Chevelle. This has been a long time coming as this was my first car and have owned it for the last 36 years. Thanks again, I’ve been following your swap components for a very long time before any of the chevelle stuff was designed.
We appreciate you choosing to use the Hooker Blackheart method to swap your car.
Thanks P-GTO. I graduated HS in 86 LOL. I also acquired a 70 Olds Cutlass Supreme around 88 from my dad. It was my second car and my sister’s first car. Still own it today.
Just installed your 71221006HKR mounts, nice quality pieces.
A little further along in the installation and finding that with these mounts, and with the rear of the trans lifted right up till its touching the tunnel in several places, I have about 4* engine/trans down angle. Driveshaft is pretty much flat, car is lowered about 2-3" out back. Pinion angle is currently zero but can be set anywhere with adjustable UCA's. However, if I lengthen them to match the trans with a 4* up angle the the operating angles are both over 4* and the rearend is noticeably too far back in the wheel well.
If I get adjustable LCA's and shorten to bring the diff back to the center of the wheelwell, is the 4* operating angle OK?
I specifically researched motor mounts and oil pans to death and bought the Holleys because I thought they seemed the best-researched setup. the Holley 302-3 pan sits about 1/2" above the crossmember. Why is the 4L80e still so tight? All indications were that with the 1" forward mounts the 4L80 should fit without hacking the tunnel. I'm not much of a purist but Im going to stop short at floorpan mods, it's one of the reasons I didnt go with a manual trans. Damned if I'm going to start cutting the tunnel now.
A little further along in the installation and finding that with these mounts, and with the rear of the trans lifted right up till its touching the tunnel in several places, I have about 4* engine/trans down angle. Driveshaft is pretty much flat, car is lowered about 2-3" out back. Pinion angle is currently zero but can be set anywhere with adjustable UCA's. However, if I lengthen them to match the trans with a 4* up angle the the operating angles are both over 4* and the rearend is noticeably too far back in the wheel well.
If I get adjustable LCA's and shorten to bring the diff back to the center of the wheelwell, is the 4* operating angle OK?
I specifically researched motor mounts and oil pans to death and bought the Holleys because I thought they seemed the best-researched setup. the Holley 302-3 pan sits about 1/2" above the crossmember. Why is the 4L80e still so tight? All indications were that with the 1" forward mounts the 4L80 should fit without hacking the tunnel. I'm not much of a purist but Im going to stop short at floorpan mods, it's one of the reasons I didnt go with a manual trans. Damned if I'm going to start cutting the tunnel now.
What are my options?
Hello Blacksix, I have a couple of questions off the bat to establish a reference baseline from which to help you. The questions would be the following...what type of rearend and rear suspension are you using in your car? Do you have new body mounts installed on your car? Does your 4L80E trans have both trans cooler lines up near the bellhousing, or is the return line at the rear of the transmission? Have you mocked-up a driveshaft in your car yet? If you haven't mocked one up, you will need to do so to be able to calculate your U-joint working angles.
...what type of rearend and rear suspension are you using in your car? Do you have new body mounts installed on your car? Does your 4L80E trans have both trans cooler lines up near the bellhousing, or is the return line at the rear of the transmission? Have you mocked-up a driveshaft in your car yet?
1970 GTO stock 8.2 GM 10-bolt.
2" lowering coil springs, Spohn control arms.
Original body mounts in decent condition. What is the compressed height of new mounts for comparison?
4L80 return line at rear.
Driveshaft is in, sits at +- 0*.
Theoretical options for lessening U-joint working angles would be to lower the front of the engine (which can't be done in your case as you already have engine mounting brackets and an oil pan that provide the lowest installed engine height available for A-bodies), or raising the tail of the transmission. Using a stock GM 10 bolt or 12 bolt rear end will have greater limiting effect on how much you can lower the rear of your car, than would using a Ford 9" rear end, which has a pinion height that is just over 1" lower than that of the GM rear ends.
The lower you set the ride height of the rear suspension, the higher you'll need to set the tail of your transmission to maintain desirable U-joint working angles (I wouldn't expect you to be able to go much past 1.5" rear suspension drop with a 10 bolt or 12 bolt rear end without encountering U-joint working angles I would consider undesirable).
You'll get to a point where the stock tunnel just won't give you any more height to work with at that point you'll need to decide if maintaining the current ride height of your car takes priority over your desire not to have to cut the tunnel to complete the installation. Every vehicle used to develop Hooker Blackheart engine swap systems receives a new set of body bushing prior to the commencement of design work, so putting a new set in your car might be something to consider to ensure the geometry of your car is as close to that of the development vehicle as possible.
If you want to leave the tunnel untouched and maintain a 2-3 suspension drop, you could address those desires by using the before mentioned 9" rear end, or a CV type driveshaft in your build. Due to the design geometry of their rear suspensions, A-bodies were set-up from the factory with few degrees of static down-tip set into the pinion angle to account for the dynamic roll-up of the pinion that will occur during vehicle acceleration and I would keep it that way if you are keeping the rear suspension stock.
Due to the design geometry of their rear suspensions, A-bodies were set-up from the factory with few degrees of static down-tip set into the pinion angle to account for the dynamic roll-up of the pinion that will occur during vehicle acceleration and I would keep it that way if you are keeping the rear suspension stock.
Wait a minute. So the trans and diff are both pointed down towards the driveshaft from factory?
How much? Can I just go with that? The two working angles would be better, but in opposite directions. Sounds all wrong...
Wait a minute. So the trans and diff are both pointed down towards the driveshaft from factory?
How much? Can I just go with that? The two working angles would be better, but in opposite directions. Sounds all wrong...
Yeah, it does sound wrong, but you have to bear in mind that the rear pinion setting from the factory is based on the vehicle sitting/operating at its stock ride height, which results in the driveshaft running slightly down-hill. In an optimum scenario, you will want to avoid having an upward rising (towards the rear of the car) in its static setting as that will cause U-joint working angles to increase as the pinion rises on acceleration. With your car being lowered 2-3" in the rear, you need to expect to more than likely have to do some amount of pinion adjusting.
If the project was mine and did not have the option to change the rear axle out or mess with the tunnel sheet metal, I would install a set of new body bushings and raise the rear of the transmission tail as high as I could get it under the tunnel and then re-check/adjust my U-joint working angles to see if I could get them to match and be under 3 degrees. If they were still exceeding 3 degrees of working angle, I would temporarily raise the ride height of the rear suspension by 1" and re-measure/re-adjust the U-joint working angles again to see how minimal I could get them to be at that ride height setting. If 3 degrees, or less, of operating angle is achievable at the 1" higher ride height, then I would know that is the lowest I can go with the rear suspension without needing to obtain a lower pinion height (i.e. switch to using a Ford 9" rear end) so I could lower the rear suspension more. Once you get to 3" or less of static U-joint working angle at both joints, you will then tip the front of the pinion down a couple of degrees at towards the front and go drive the car (slowly at first) to check for any noticeable vibrations.
If none are present, you'll can further test drive the car at greater levels of acceleration to more greatly load the rear suspension. if you now notice vibration on acceleration, it indicates you don't have enough down-tip in your pinion and you'll need to add a little more. If you notice vibration during deceleration, it indicates you have too much down-tip in the pinion and need to take a little bit out of it.
Thanks for the advice, I will work on that. Again, is it OK to have trans 2* down, and diff also pointing, say, 2* down at the front? As long as the working angles are OK? Cause that seems to be the way the Pontiac 400/TH200 was set up and the pinion angle hasnt changed until now.
Thanks for the advice, I will work on that. Again, is it OK to have trans 2* down, and diff also pointing, say, 2* down at the front? As long as the working angles are OK? Cause that seems to be the way the Pontiac 400/TH200 was set up and the pinion angle hasnt changed until now.
Yes, it's OK for the pinion to have some down-tip in it on vehicles that have suspension systems that will experience deflection in their components during operation. Whether of not that 2 degrees down angle you have now will be suitable for your car depends on if that amount of static pinion down tip is what is required for the driveshaft and U-joints to dynamically achieve near matched U-joint operating angles that are less than 3 degrees while the vehicle is in operation. As I mentioned previously, pay a good amount of attention to whether or not you are ending up with an up-hill traveling driveshaft in your static geometry, as you'll want to avoid that if possible. With that said, if your trans and pinion angles are both pointing down towards the back of the car and your driveshaft is pointing up towards the back of the car, you will need to add the measured trans/driveshaft and driveshaft/pinion angles together instead of subtracting them from one another to calculate your U-joint working angles correctly.
Thanks Toddoky for doing this its pretty cool when you can chat with the engineer who designed the actual parts. I'm currently doing a LQ4 LS 6.0 swap in a 69 Chevelle with a Silversports TKO 600 perfect fit trans kit. I've gathered a list of parts and I'm going to order but wanted to see if there will be any issues or recommendations first.
Headers 70101519HKR
Oil pan 302-2
Engine mounts 71221006HKR
Exhaust 17200 flowmaster american thunder
Fuel tank 19-106
The engine bracket, header and oil pan part numbers you’ve referenced will certainly install well together in your car, but I can’t say how compatible they with be with your transmission and crossmember. The TKO transmissions are a fitment challenge due to the height of the top covers on them and that will be exacerbated by the low height of your tunnel (if you plan on cutting out the tunnel and rebuilding it, that will be helpful to your efforts). The Flowmaster exhaust system is not directly compatible with the Hooker Blackheart headers, so be aware that some degree of modification to it will be required to provide connection between those components.
I've got a 71 Chevelle that I'm putting an LS/4L80E combo into. It is a Dart LS next aluminum block with a modified holley 302-2 pan. The pan was just clearanced for stroker and had bungs added for turbo drains. I have the rear bias mounts, went with solid UMI pieces instead of rubber or poly for the 4th gen F body pieces. I have 2010 Camaro accessories on it (truck spacing) and am having issues with alternator/steering box clearance. When I was looking through the instructions the GTO alternator was listed as not compatible. I didn't see anything about the truck/2010 camaro spacing. Is there a specific alternator I need to get? I'd like to stay low if possible. I've currently got the up and forward flow tech turbo headers on it so relocating high would mean different headers. To keep the current headers I would still need to figure out the steering as the back header pipe goes to the outside of the collector where if it had the tighter radius of the 2nd from the front going to the inside it would clear just fine.
I have the blackheart cross member as well and was able to hammer clearance my tunnel to get the 4L80E to fit. I am running a ford 9" with a 10" baja gear in it. The trans is set back slightly extra for a mid plate. I was able to just slightly extend the slots on the holley crossmember where it bolts to the trans to allow the same frame holes to be used. The extension of the holes was towards the cantilever for the shorter transmissions so I figured that would be fine. I'm currently in the process of doing the helwig frame FX kit, so still deciding on whether to modify that or the trans crossmember.
Overall the fitment of all the Holley products has been great. The alternator is the only place I'm having any issues. Engine Mounts AC is tight but fits as advertised View from where the steering box would be up to where steering needs to go. Firewall clearance Transmission is tight, but I'll modify the tunnel a little more if required. Car is lowered in the rear but also has a modified ford 9" with a 10" gear set and wavetrac which should help with angles. Rear end, the watts link is not tightened down yet.
The only low-mount driver side alternator I am aware of that will install with the rear bias Hooker Blackheart A-body engine mounting brackets for sure is the 4th-gen F-body alternator. I suspect that the Holley low-mount alternator/bracket set-up would also clear if set-up at the F-body spacing, but I haven't had the opportunity to evaluate it first-hand. The GTO alternator doesn't fit due to the bearing cap of the one-way clutch on the alternator pulley interfering with the back side of the power steering gear housing. A truck alternator set-up will clear the box if you install a smaller pulley on the power steering pump (not my preference). The Holley high-mount alternator/bracket set-up will clear the steering box and so should the Holley mid-mount system. There may be others that fit also, but I wouldn't be aware of them as I only work with stock and Holley components in my development efforts.
Just test fitted the LY6 engine and 4L80E in my 70 Chevelle last weekend with the Holley forward mount frame mounts and the Holley clam shells. Everything dropped in perfectly.The transmission cooler line fittings are off of ebay from a company that makes them for the 4L80E for tight locations like this, they are just banjo style fittings.
If I do the F-body spacing will the AC become an issue on the passenger side? Maybe a different set of headers and going high mount is the best option. How far forward does the midmount system move everything?
If I do the F-body spacing will the AC become an issue on the passenger side? Maybe a different set of headers and going high mount is the best option. How far forward does the midmount system move everything?
The fitment of a low-mount A/C compressor would depend on the specific compressor/bracket you used. The Sanden SD7B10 compressor used in the Holley low-mount A/C set-up is the most compact compressor available, but I can’t say that it will absolutely install at the F-body spacing and clear the Hooker Blackheart rear-biased engine mounting brackets as I’ve never tried it before. The tip of the water pump snout on the Holley mid-mount accessory drive system is at the same fore/aft termination point as the end of the threaded snout of the water pump on the truck accessory drive.
01-14-2020, 04:21 PM
