Hello,
I'm in need of some feedback from people with more experience than I have. Last winter I picked up an 89 foxbody as a project car. My project has ground to a halt because I cannot decide whether or not I should stick with the Windsor engine that is stock to the car or go with an LSx swap. Obviously I know in all performance aspects the LSx is superior. I am asking this question on an LS forum rather than somewhere else, because I've noticed that people here seem to be more open discussing swaps, whereas on Ford forums you get attacked for the idea of ever using anything other than a Ford engine. The reason why I haven't made up my mind is for a couple reasons. One, while I do have a budget for this project (or else I would have never even gotten the car), I don't have an UNLIMITED budget. The reasons why I could think of staying with the stock engine is, well, because it was made to be there and I already have one. The engine being stock to the car would cut down on the unknowns, like little bolts or pieces you didn't know you would need at the start of the swap, which add up after awhile. The second would be simplicity. I don't want to be 6 months into the swap and the car is torn apart, and I am suddenly in a position where the swap was much more difficult to complete than I imagined and I don't have the budget to dig myself out of the pit I'm in, and the project is derailed because of it. Then again, maybe the swap isn't the difficult. It's hard to tell with no definitive step by step guide out there.
The reason why I want to go LSx is because, as I'm sure everyone knows, that all but the most extreme built 5.0 Windsor engines make around the same power that an LSx makes stock. I'm not all about absolute power, my car will never be the fastest car to exist anyways, and I'm building for handling, not an all out drag car, but at the same time, I don't want to spend the same amount as what a swap might have costed on building the Windsor, only to make what a LSx makes stock power-wise. Secondly, the all aluminum LSx weighs a lot less than the 5 liter. Between a tubular K member and the LSx, it'll cut a lot of weight off the front of the car.
I guess before I commit to buying an LSx, I'm hoping to hear from someone who maybe has already done this. I've tried to read as many threads on different forums about it as possible, but either the swaps aren't well documented, their never finished, or the swap is a lot different from what I plan. I want to stick with a manual. If I go through with this I'll probably aim to get an L33 out of the Silverado, they're less expensive than the LS1,2,3 etc, but still all aluminum. Probably a TKO 500/600 using that Quicktime bellhousing. I don't really have any interest in going with an automatic, despite hearing it makes the swap easier. So basically my question is, will I be better off with a more mild build/refresh LSx swap, or should I stick with going with a built Windsor. Will my budget be nickle and dimed to death by small parts needed to complete the swap? I know of the big things you need, obviously. The engine mounts, swap headers, K member, bellhousing to adapt the transmission, but what other unknowns are needed? Unfortunately I have never found a complete list of what the swap requires. My budget is around $15,000 to build the car. That includes the engine, suspension, transmission, fuel, interior etc. Paint and body I have a separate savings for. I know that there are super budget builds out there, but unfortunately in my area, nothing "budget" seems to exist, and on top of that, I want this to be a well built car, not a car made up of junkyard parts. I want it to be reliable, not just get it to the point of running to make a few passes on the strip before the thing dies, like in most budget builds.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. I've always wanted to build a car. I want to do it right the first time and be able to enjoy it. I don't want a life long dream to turn into a nightmare because of some poor choices at the start. I'm itching to get going but I can't pull the trigger on anything before I have a plan in place. Thank you!

 

 

Well I mean I want to go LSx, but are there a bunch of small bits and pieces one wouldn't think of that can kill my budget? So far all I know you need in regards to the swap is a K member, engine mounts, swap headers, transmission, probably custom driveshaft, fuel system, and engine management. Is it an overly complicated swap? Is an LSx swap feasible on a budget around $15k without using junkyard parts/cutting insane deals that magazines get/etc, while still needing that budget to also cover suspension, brakes, interior, etc? Will the cost of a fairly built 302 pretty much equal the price of a mildly built/refreshed LSx swap by the end of it? If in the end the cost will be about the same, I can't see myself wanting to pour a bunch of money into a 302 for around the same price of an LSx swap only to have around the same power of a nearly stock LSx when everything is done. I'm just trying to get a better picture of what would be in store for me before ditching the stock motor. Every time I try to find answers to these questions, I'm always led to a story about a guy who has all kinds of connections and got insane deals, which isn't typical for the average person doing this, or the swap itself is completely different from what I want to do. I want to do a manual n/a swap, and I feel like most of the stories I run into are turbo cars with automatics. It's really hard for me to gauge how complicated things will get and how much it will cost.

In regards to what you said, thanks for clearing up what I thought about the weight. All I ever hear is about how much lighter all aluminum LSx's are compared to the iron block 302. I guess people just assume it's much lighter because of the different metals or something. Wouldn't you say, though, that the ease and potential to make much more power with an LSx offsets any slight weight increase vs the 302?

 

 

I'm sorry I wasn't specific enough, I should have been. This is the list I have so far. I'm just going to copy and paste what I have:

Engine $1600
Cam Package (cam, valvesprings, retainers, Timing chain, oil pump, pushrods) $865.96
LS7 lifters $174.12

Holley Dual Plane Intake Manifold $271.95
Hooker engine mounts $150
Hooker Long tube headers $1000
Quicktime bellhousing $726
Holley GM LS RETRO-FIT OIL PAN BAFFLE KIT $211.95

$2359.90

Holley TERMINATOR LS TBI KIT $2270.95

$2270.95

TKO 600 Transmission $2595.00

$2595.00

K-Member Package $1756.40
Coil-Over Kit, Koni Shocks, rear, 1979-04 Mustang non IRS $319
Koni Package, SA Struts & Shocks $665.84
Steering Shaft Assembly $219.97
Steering Rack Bushings, Solid $50
MM Front Swaybar with bushings and endlinks $225.49
Adjustable Rear Swaybar, solid-axle Mustang $369.97
MM Full Length Subframe Connectors 159.97
Heavy-Duty Mustang Rear Lower Control Arms 249.95
Panhard Bar $384.97

$4401.56

MUSTANG SVE BASE 5-LUG CONVERSION KIT - 31 SPLINE $2,349.99

$2,349.99

FORD LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL – 31 SPLINE TRACTION-LOK $249.99
Mustang Ford Racing Rear Axle Girdle/Differential Cover $214.99
Mustang Ford Performance 3.73 Gear Kit for 8.8" Rear End $279.99


$1069.97

Mustang Lock Set w/ Black Bezel $54.99
Mustang Replacement Quarter Windows $350.96
Mustang Front Windshield Molding Kit Black $119.99
Mustang Headlight Kit w/ Amber Side Markers $84.95
Mustang Sunroof Latch Assembly $59.99
Mustang Acme Door Panels W/ Power Windows Black $354.99
Mustang Rear Seat Delete Kit $379.99

$1405.86

I realize that they have K member packages from places like Team Z and AJE that are significantly cheaper than the Maximum Motorsports one, but I've read about worries of them being good for road use as they are drag strip focused and not as sturdy as the MM one.

 

You've easily identified almost $15k in parts right there. Can't see how you're going to keep it at or under $15k with what you're showing above. For $1600 - you're unlikely to snag an aluminum block. On the other hand - for $3500 you might -- and if you don't go with the Holley efi system - just use the harness and ecu that (are likely) to come with the used engine, you save that $2300, less a little for figuring out the harness changes/ecu programming for stand alone use. I don't see anything for radiator, Quicktime bell housing, clutch, pressure plate or exhaust. That can be priced out. Perhaps you're thinking you'll reuse the OEM flywheel/pressure plate/clutch disc, etc. Also - how will you activate clutch? Mustang cable? Which can work with the QT bell - that's how mine is. But if you're going hydraulic -- build in the those parts cost. The last piece is -- how much of this will you do regardless of which engine you use? Back that out and add in the 5.0L mods so you can see what the incremental cost of going LS is.

I'd allow at least a 25% contingency..... With the stuff listed above -- and some of the other stuff I've mentioned - looks to me like you may come in closer to $20k.

Having had both motors - there's no comparison. LS so much quieter, more refined, smoother -- just a better all around experience. And that's without the HP/torque benefits especially if you go 6.0L/6.2L.

 

I planned on going with an L33 out of the Silverado. I've looked around in local listings online an the prices seem to range from $900 to $1600. Of course, I'm not sure exactly what the engine comes with. I think in most cases that it is just the engine itself, pullies and intake manifold. Is there somewhere reliable online you can buy used LS engines? I know the Holley EFI is a big expense, but if I lightly modded the engine in the future, wouldn't I need aftermarket engine management to tune it? I also haven't seen an ECU and harness listed in most of the sales I've seen, so I worry about getting it and what condition the stock harness and ECU would be in. You're right, I didn't list anything for cooling or the clutch, I did list the bellhousing, though. I need to find what I would go with for those things. Do most swap headers work with any K member? The more expensive Hooker ones I listed are the only ones I've seen that specifically mention they work with the Maximummotorsports K member, or else I could go with something less expensive like Dynamax headers. I plan to stick with a cable activated clutch.

Next thing I'm going to do is make a list to see what I will spend if I stick with the 302, that's a good idea.

Thank you for the feedback, I really appreciate it and the constructive criticism. I'm sure it's frustrated to answer questions from someone inexperienced like me, but I really appreciate it.

 

Not frustrating for me. Happy to help if I can. I've been in the fortunate position to be able to afford the swap just about whatever the cost was (I bought a new crate LS3) -- so I'm not the best to ask about budget approaches. If I need it - I just buy it. As for cost -- I was thinking LS1/LS2/LS3 - hence my higher prices. Yes, if you mod significantly in the future, you'll need some way to tune. However, if you're inexperienced, there can be a steep learning curve with the aftermarket systems.

As for reliable used engines - best to simply deal with a reliable vendor. You can end up with a used engine that doesn't work right - no way around it. You need someone who'll stand behind it.

 

Let us know how you end up on that $8k budget with the 2JZ and the Lexus.....

 

Lolz...

 

Wrong thread??
"RWD Wagon Starter Car"?

 

I’m an idiot. Damn phone - for some reason, it doesn’t segregate the threads by window/screen...so if you accidentally scroll past the last post, it rolls right into the start of some other thread. Argh. Screw it - ice cream will fix it.

 

I have done this and its SO annoying hahah.... you need to still makes that post about the 2jz. After reading through that thread it's just not the same without that comment!

 

Done.....but he/she's probably gone.