LS3 / 525 crate motor.... what's a "normal" operating temperature range
10-11-2019, 08:43 AM
#61
10-11-2019, 07:28 PM
#64
10-11-2019, 08:42 PM
#66
I'm confused (my usual state) -- earlier I asked if you could make a right turn and pick up air from that side. "No --- (edited for brevity) -- no room."
Then I see this pic --
I have 2 different intake setups.
I'd sure try to build a shield or pipe in some cold air to that filter location rather than use the one that sits in the middle behind the rad.
Then I see this pic --
I have 2 different intake setups.
I'd sure try to build a shield or pipe in some cold air to that filter location rather than use the one that sits in the middle behind the rad.
10-11-2019, 09:38 PM
#67
I'm confused (my usual state) -- earlier I asked if you could make a right turn and pick up air from that side. "No --- (edited for brevity) -- no room."
Then I see this pic --
I have 2 different intake setups.
I'd sure try to build a shield or pipe in some cold air to that filter location rather than use the one that sits in the middle behind the rad.
Then I see this pic --
I have 2 different intake setups.
I'd sure try to build a shield or pipe in some cold air to that filter location rather than use the one that sits in the middle behind the rad.
You asked if i can "go through the passenger side inner fender to pick up cold air".
I cannot go through the inner fender or duct air in from there. I have my trans cooler lines, fan wiring and ac lines routed right there plus the upper control arm is literally right below the filter in this setup. If i can't duct in cool air and build a box then it's probably worse off then what i already have.
The current setup actually gets air from over the radiator. It's actually a cai setup for a gto slightly modified to fit. Obviously sitting with no air flow over the radiator the iat's do go up.
Hope this clears up what i meant or how i understood your question. Sorry for any confusion.
Ryan
10-11-2019, 10:07 PM
#69
TECH Addict
FWIW,, on the various additives,,, (Watter wetter, Blue Ice etc.. )
In most cases there will be little if any change on the gauge,,
the important changes are internal in the water jacket..
Wetting agents are standard in pretty much allbig building glycol heating and cooling systems.
They increase overall efficiency, the lubricate the system and really really reduce corrosion.
The is not new tech and all the wetting agents contain pretty much the same chemicals..
If adding one significantly drops your temps, its typically because you had air in the system and
the added benefit of a wetting agent is the reduction of the ability for bubbles to form and maintain
their presence. Additionally, if you do end up with cavitation due to RPM the bubbles formed will usually dissipate
more rapidly. Cavitation can create steam bubbles not air bubbles, in the low pressure area of the water pump.
Its a good thing to use it,, even in a motor that runs cool..
You can really see it if you run one of the clear
segments in a radiator hose so you can see the coolant..
In most cases there will be little if any change on the gauge,,
the important changes are internal in the water jacket..
Wetting agents are standard in pretty much allbig building glycol heating and cooling systems.
They increase overall efficiency, the lubricate the system and really really reduce corrosion.
The is not new tech and all the wetting agents contain pretty much the same chemicals..
If adding one significantly drops your temps, its typically because you had air in the system and
the added benefit of a wetting agent is the reduction of the ability for bubbles to form and maintain
their presence. Additionally, if you do end up with cavitation due to RPM the bubbles formed will usually dissipate
more rapidly. Cavitation can create steam bubbles not air bubbles, in the low pressure area of the water pump.
Its a good thing to use it,, even in a motor that runs cool..
You can really see it if you run one of the clear
segments in a radiator hose so you can see the coolant..
10-13-2019, 07:11 AM
#70
Well the autometer gauge is an analog dial gauge, i won't get an exact read out unless it's at the number indicated. The ecm temp readout is on my phone via bluetooth as posted above. Judging by the approximate location of the needle I'd say they're within 5* of each other. Ecm temp (driver front) seems to be the higher of the 2.
There is nothing wrong with your tune. Folks want to start blaming the tune whenever there is a problem that cannot be easily located. Yes the ECM will pull timing based on several factors, but it will not exceed the threshold to cause a lean condition enough to melt a piston in a stock tune from GM. In fact, all the ones I have seen are fat on fuel.You can force it to go too lean but if nobody has screwed with your tune, then it is very safe right now. Contributing factor, maybe to some degree, but not root cause. I would not suspect the tune, unless someone has had their hands in there. You need to get the heat away from your air intake. In addition, probably put a 160 stat in and lower your fan temp on, to get a head start on temp. and get the water moving.
Approach this in an orderly fashion. Get a temperature gun and measure temps in 20 different places if you need to, but get some baseline data and write it down, so as you document the steps, and you can quantify your results. You have a couple of pretty sharp guys helping you out in here (me excluded), so it's important to start harvesting data to narrow the problem down. This is how we do root cause analysis where I work, and it's very effective. It will give some real time data to look at, instead of estimates.
T,
10-13-2019, 08:11 AM
#71
Based on Tom's post - I just went back and reread the entire post. Perhaps I missed it -- I don't think you ever answered questions about 1) what temp t'stat is in the engine; and 2) what temps are the fans programmed to turn on/off -- are they ecm controlled or controlled by a separate controller? While my crate motor was new on the stand, I pulled the OEM t'stat out and got it in a pan of water on the cook top to measure the opening temp range. That's the only way I know to be certain what temp range MY t'stat is actually operating at. My SPAL fans are controlled by a separate variable speed controller. I get to set the fans' on/off temps -- so I know what those are doing too.
I think I'm gonna let go of the IAT temp issue. You said clearly, IAT temps climb when sitting in traffic, but once you get moving they come back to with 10F of ambient pretty quickly. Would it be better if you could pick up intake air that's always at ambient? Yes - but I see how that's gonna create some work on your set up. In the spirit of Tom's comment about data -- I'd sure like to know -- what temp t'stat is in the car? Exactly how are the fans controlled? What are the L x W dimensions of the radiator core? If the SPAL fans fit, I know you're at least 24" x 16", right?
BTW - we're running exactly the same fan set up. My rad is a 2 x 1" rows aluminum unit with a core that is 24" x 16". As mentioned before - mine runs 195F-197F when the t'stat is controlling. And 202F-205F when the fans are controlling and the A/C is off. With the A/C on, my fans are set to run at 70% of full speed (unless commanded to turn faster because of coolant temps) - so with A/C on mine behaves as if I'm cruising down the road at 45-50 mph - so I see 195F-197F with the A/C on - because the fans are on. The only thing higher/lower ambient temps seem to affect on mine is how long it takes to ramp up/down fan speeds and how long they stay on. When it's 40F outside - I've run the 25 mile round trip to one of our local Cars&Coffee events, and NEVER had the fans come on at all. When it's 90F-95F outside with the A/C on - she pretty much sits at 198F all the time, moving or idling.
Oh - I'm running a small oil cooler as well, on it's own switched fan. And it's positioned so the hot air coming off of it DOES NOT flow back over the radiator -- so it's not putting the heat from the oil right back into the radiator. That just gives my rad more capacity to work with in keeping the coolant where I'd like it.
I think I'm gonna let go of the IAT temp issue. You said clearly, IAT temps climb when sitting in traffic, but once you get moving they come back to with 10F of ambient pretty quickly. Would it be better if you could pick up intake air that's always at ambient? Yes - but I see how that's gonna create some work on your set up. In the spirit of Tom's comment about data -- I'd sure like to know -- what temp t'stat is in the car? Exactly how are the fans controlled? What are the L x W dimensions of the radiator core? If the SPAL fans fit, I know you're at least 24" x 16", right?
BTW - we're running exactly the same fan set up. My rad is a 2 x 1" rows aluminum unit with a core that is 24" x 16". As mentioned before - mine runs 195F-197F when the t'stat is controlling. And 202F-205F when the fans are controlling and the A/C is off. With the A/C on, my fans are set to run at 70% of full speed (unless commanded to turn faster because of coolant temps) - so with A/C on mine behaves as if I'm cruising down the road at 45-50 mph - so I see 195F-197F with the A/C on - because the fans are on. The only thing higher/lower ambient temps seem to affect on mine is how long it takes to ramp up/down fan speeds and how long they stay on. When it's 40F outside - I've run the 25 mile round trip to one of our local Cars&Coffee events, and NEVER had the fans come on at all. When it's 90F-95F outside with the A/C on - she pretty much sits at 198F all the time, moving or idling.
Oh - I'm running a small oil cooler as well, on it's own switched fan. And it's positioned so the hot air coming off of it DOES NOT flow back over the radiator -- so it's not putting the heat from the oil right back into the radiator. That just gives my rad more capacity to work with in keeping the coolant where I'd like it.
Last edited by Michael Yount; 10-13-2019 at 08:25 AM.
10-13-2019, 12:47 PM
#72
So have you actually shot the senders at their location with any kind of measuring device, like an infrared thermometer etc? I have seen the temperature at the rear of the head as much as 20-30 degrees higher in a car that had the steam vent lines at the rear. You need to test the actual temperatures instead of trusting and estimating the temps. with gauges that haven't been quantified.
There is nothing wrong with your tune. Folks want to start blaming the tune whenever there is a problem that cannot be easily located. Yes the ECM will pull timing based on several factors, but it will not exceed the threshold to cause a lean condition enough to melt a piston in a stock tune from GM. In fact, all the ones I have seen are fat on fuel.You can force it to go too lean but if nobody has screwed with your tune, then it is very safe right now. Contributing factor, maybe to some degree, but not root cause. I would not suspect the tune, unless someone has had their hands in there. You need to get the heat away from your air intake. In addition, probably put a 160 stat in and lower your fan temp on, to get a head start on temp. and get the water moving.
Approach this in an orderly fashion. Get a temperature gun and measure temps in 20 different places if you need to, but get some baseline data and write it down, so as you document the steps, and you can quantify your results. You have a couple of pretty sharp guys helping you out in here (me excluded), so it's important to start harvesting data to narrow the problem down. This is how we do root cause analysis where I work, and it's very effective. It will give some real time data to look at, instead of estimates.
T,
There is nothing wrong with your tune. Folks want to start blaming the tune whenever there is a problem that cannot be easily located. Yes the ECM will pull timing based on several factors, but it will not exceed the threshold to cause a lean condition enough to melt a piston in a stock tune from GM. In fact, all the ones I have seen are fat on fuel.You can force it to go too lean but if nobody has screwed with your tune, then it is very safe right now. Contributing factor, maybe to some degree, but not root cause. I would not suspect the tune, unless someone has had their hands in there. You need to get the heat away from your air intake. In addition, probably put a 160 stat in and lower your fan temp on, to get a head start on temp. and get the water moving.
Approach this in an orderly fashion. Get a temperature gun and measure temps in 20 different places if you need to, but get some baseline data and write it down, so as you document the steps, and you can quantify your results. You have a couple of pretty sharp guys helping you out in here (me excluded), so it's important to start harvesting data to narrow the problem down. This is how we do root cause analysis where I work, and it's very effective. It will give some real time data to look at, instead of estimates.
T,
I have not shot the sensors at thier locations. I did just a few minutes ago. See below for results. They look close to gauge readings.
As far as the ecm goes i do agree that it should be correct especially being from gm and would likely be a very conservative tune. In my case with the engine bay heat generated i do wonder if some of the heat could be reduced by bumping timing up some. Only thing that had even been done to the ecm was tilden motorsports programmed it to have the tcm communicate. I don't think any parameters wouldve been messed with causing my the hot temps at idle in doing this.
Thanks for chiming in. It was easier to just take a pic and post my findings.
Ryan
10-13-2019, 01:27 PM
#73
Based on Tom's post - I just went back and reread the entire post. Perhaps I missed it -- I don't think you ever answered questions about 1) what temp t'stat is in the engine; and 2) what temps are the fans programmed to turn on/off -- are they ecm controlled or controlled by a separate controller? While my crate motor was new on the stand, I pulled the OEM t'stat out and got it in a pan of water on the cook top to measure the opening temp range. That's the only way I know to be certain what temp range MY t'stat is actually operating at. My SPAL fans are controlled by a separate variable speed controller. I get to set the fans' on/off temps -- so I know what those are doing too.
I think I'm gonna let go of the IAT temp issue. You said clearly, IAT temps climb when sitting in traffic, but once you get moving they come back to with 10F of ambient pretty quickly. Would it be better if you could pick up intake air that's always at ambient? Yes - but I see how that's gonna create some work on your set up. In the spirit of Tom's comment about data -- I'd sure like to know -- what temp t'stat is in the car? Exactly how are the fans controlled? What are the L x W dimensions of the radiator core? If the SPAL fans fit, I know you're at least 24" x 16", right?
BTW - we're running exactly the same fan set up. My rad is a 2 x 1" rows aluminum unit with a core that is 24" x 16". As mentioned before - mine runs 195F-197F when the t'stat is controlling. And 202F-205F when the fans are controlling and the A/C is off. With the A/C on, my fans are set to run at 70% of full speed (unless commanded to turn faster because of coolant temps) - so with A/C on mine behaves as if I'm cruising down the road at 45-50 mph - so I see 195F-197F with the A/C on - because the fans are on. The only thing higher/lower ambient temps seem to affect on mine is how long it takes to ramp up/down fan speeds and how long they stay on. When it's 40F outside - I've run the 25 mile round trip to one of our local Cars&Coffee events, and NEVER had the fans come on at all. When it's 90F-95F outside with the A/C on - she pretty much sits at 198F all the time, moving or idling.
Oh - I'm running a small oil cooler as well, on it's own switched fan. And it's positioned so the hot air coming off of it DOES NOT flow back over the radiator -- so it's not putting the heat from the oil right back into the radiator. That just gives my rad more capacity to work with in keeping the coolant where I'd like it.
I think I'm gonna let go of the IAT temp issue. You said clearly, IAT temps climb when sitting in traffic, but once you get moving they come back to with 10F of ambient pretty quickly. Would it be better if you could pick up intake air that's always at ambient? Yes - but I see how that's gonna create some work on your set up. In the spirit of Tom's comment about data -- I'd sure like to know -- what temp t'stat is in the car? Exactly how are the fans controlled? What are the L x W dimensions of the radiator core? If the SPAL fans fit, I know you're at least 24" x 16", right?
BTW - we're running exactly the same fan set up. My rad is a 2 x 1" rows aluminum unit with a core that is 24" x 16". As mentioned before - mine runs 195F-197F when the t'stat is controlling. And 202F-205F when the fans are controlling and the A/C is off. With the A/C on, my fans are set to run at 70% of full speed (unless commanded to turn faster because of coolant temps) - so with A/C on mine behaves as if I'm cruising down the road at 45-50 mph - so I see 195F-197F with the A/C on - because the fans are on. The only thing higher/lower ambient temps seem to affect on mine is how long it takes to ramp up/down fan speeds and how long they stay on. When it's 40F outside - I've run the 25 mile round trip to one of our local Cars&Coffee events, and NEVER had the fans come on at all. When it's 90F-95F outside with the A/C on - she pretty much sits at 198F all the time, moving or idling.
Oh - I'm running a small oil cooler as well, on it's own switched fan. And it's positioned so the hot air coming off of it DOES NOT flow back over the radiator -- so it's not putting the heat from the oil right back into the radiator. That just gives my rad more capacity to work with in keeping the coolant where I'd like it.
Initially i was running a 160 tstat w/stock fan programming. Temp swings were large. I have changed out since beginning of this thread to a stock 187*. I actually did check both tstats on the stove with water just to do it before i installed motor. Fans are controlled by the ecm. I do know they come on at 204. I don't know when they're programmed to turn off. Should be a stock tune as far as that goes.
Radiator core (minus end tanks) is 26.25" wide x 17.625" high. The dual spal fans w/shroud cover the radiator top to bottom, there's abiut 2.5" not covered on driver side (due to control arm clearance) and about .25" on pass. side not covered. Radiator is now a dual pass with 2 1" rows.
See what i wrote down in post above for driving temps. They seem very similar to yours. Except that when I'm idling for 30+minutes in 95* weather it'll climb to 225-230 if i let it. I dont have any other comparisons with ambient temps because its always been hot since I've got it on the road.
I do have a small trans cooler in front of my radiator. 10" wide x 5" high. Innight a little spal fanbto put on it but just haven't gotten to it yet.
I did start putting some heat shield armor on from heatshield products. Comparing pass to driver side temps on my ss headers the temps dropped from around 330ish (not wrapped) to 170ish (wrapped with thier heat shield armor). 160* drop. I guess that isnt too bad? That crap is expensive.
Ryan
10-13-2019, 02:38 PM
#74
You've got plenty of rad. If you're certain they're coming on at 204F, then they're turning off at something lower than that. Which, of course, they're never reaching on these long idle periods as temps keep climbing above 204F. That means, to me, somehow, someway, you'll need to move more air across the rad to reject enough heat to keep things swinging between the fan off and on temps. Whether the fans aren't capable of it (I seriously doubt) or the movement is limited because the air can't easily get OUT of the engine compartment I don't know. I gotta think based on my experience in my car the fans are more than up to the task. I have a 'fan tach' on mine that lets me know how fast mine are turning. They're rarely above 30% max speed no matter the ambient. And with A/C on, they move way more than needed as my t'stat controls temp with them running at 70%. And I have less radiator than you do (L x W).
With fall upon us -- you're probably good to go....although, if I recall my Houston days correctly, you'll move straight from summer into a mild winter a little before Christmas. LOL Next summer you can experiment with hood venting.
With fall upon us -- you're probably good to go....although, if I recall my Houston days correctly, you'll move straight from summer into a mild winter a little before Christmas. LOL Next summer you can experiment with hood venting.
11-03-2019, 06:13 PM
#75
You've got plenty of rad. If you're certain they're coming on at 204F, then they're turning off at something lower than that. Which, of course, they're never reaching on these long idle periods as temps keep climbing above 204F. That means, to me, somehow, someway, you'll need to move more air across the rad to reject enough heat to keep things swinging between the fan off and on temps. Whether the fans aren't capable of it (I seriously doubt) or the movement is limited because the air can't easily get OUT of the engine compartment I don't know. I gotta think based on my experience in my car the fans are more than up to the task. I have a 'fan tach' on mine that lets me know how fast mine are turning. They're rarely above 30% max speed no matter the ambient. And with A/C on, they move way more than needed as my t'stat controls temp with them running at 70%. And I have less radiator than you do (L x W).
With fall upon us -- you're probably good to go....although, if I recall my Houston days correctly, you'll move straight from summer into a mild winter a little before Christmas. LOL Next summer you can experiment with hood venting.
With fall upon us -- you're probably good to go....although, if I recall my Houston days correctly, you'll move straight from summer into a mild winter a little before Christmas. LOL Next summer you can experiment with hood venting.
Something else i thought of is my cold air intake tray/box doesn't seal to the hood and it gets air from over the radiator. Obviously this causes my high iat's but I wonder how much of that hot engine bay air is getting pulled/recycled back through the radiator while at idle (especially if fans are sufficient) causing the slow rise of coolant temps?
Thanks for the help and ideas working through this problem.
Ryan
11-03-2019, 06:26 PM
#76
So things on my to do list are, header wrap, hood vent, seal off airbox / radiator from engine bay. Can anyone recommend a good insulation material to wrap my air box in? IAT's were about 163* at idle. Coolant temps were stable. New infrared gun had a thermocouple probe so it isn't too far off from iat temps. My airbox wasn't sealed to hood at this time. Headers were wrapped.
Header wrap (actually heat shield)
Hood vent
Header wrap (actually heat shield)
Hood vent
11-03-2019, 06:38 PM
#77
I did a lot of test fitting and plastic welding to get this airbox sealed up to the hood. I'll probably use thus as a mold and make another out of fiberglass. I'm not wild about the foil wrap look. With recent ambient temps between 70-75 my max iat was 164 before. Once box was sealed up to hood i was getting 128. Just for fun I opened the hood and iat was 113 (sitting in direct sunlight too). Please let me know if these seem like reasonable temps for ambient temp.
Ryan
Ryan
11-04-2019, 05:20 PM
#78
The IAT's are definitely better. That's a full 50 degrees and certainly won't hurt. I suspect they will probably go down when you get some air moving across it....
Back to your temperatures. I went back and re-read your data. It seems that you don't have a problem in my opinion. The temperature coming out of the engine is a full 50 degrees cooler than the temp at the head where the OE sensor is located. Looks like you are about 20 degrees delta T on the inlet and outlet. That is the actual temperature of the coolant/water coming out of your engine, scrubbing off heat, and returning into your engine.
While I'm sure the OE's have their reasons to locate the sender there, a lot of factors can play into that decision. Primarily being really close to exhaust ports and seeing latent heat from exhaust gasses. Are you really sampling actual water temperature? I have my suspicions.....but have never quantified any results, other than, as I said before, I have seen 20-30 degrees hotter temps at those sender locations than at the outlet.
I put my sender in the upper hose to sample the temperatures, and feel that is more accurate IMO. My fans come off and on very close to the set points that match the water temps. If you wanted to move your sender there, I suspect it will see lower temps., and ease your mind considerably....
T,
Back to your temperatures. I went back and re-read your data. It seems that you don't have a problem in my opinion. The temperature coming out of the engine is a full 50 degrees cooler than the temp at the head where the OE sensor is located. Looks like you are about 20 degrees delta T on the inlet and outlet. That is the actual temperature of the coolant/water coming out of your engine, scrubbing off heat, and returning into your engine.
While I'm sure the OE's have their reasons to locate the sender there, a lot of factors can play into that decision. Primarily being really close to exhaust ports and seeing latent heat from exhaust gasses. Are you really sampling actual water temperature? I have my suspicions.....but have never quantified any results, other than, as I said before, I have seen 20-30 degrees hotter temps at those sender locations than at the outlet.
I put my sender in the upper hose to sample the temperatures, and feel that is more accurate IMO. My fans come off and on very close to the set points that match the water temps. If you wanted to move your sender there, I suspect it will see lower temps., and ease your mind considerably....
T,
Last edited by TomM; 11-05-2019 at 05:43 AM.