Ok, all, long time reader, first time poster.

Finances are prepped, beginning my build on the 70 Nova. A lot has changed since I've driven it last. Painted in '16, its been sitting in the garage since. I recently pulled it completely apart and decided all the old driveline just wasn't going to go back in. I'm going to start a similar thread on Steves Nova forums to address the interior, etc, but am turning here for the powertrain and driveline advice. What I'm very much interested in hearing is information concerning kits and known combinations that will allow me to save time and money by only doing work once. I have a fairly decent mechanical background but no real shop anymore and not many connections locally. Just myself in a 1.5 car garage with a level of tools that stops at the torque wrench, air compressor, and electric impact level! I.e. no welder, lift, limited specialty tools, etc.

- What I want out of the car: strong street cruiser. This car will realistically never see a track but I want to run it up and down the back roads and have fun on the weekends with the kids. Goals are somewhere around 500 hp/ 500 tq through a 5/6 speed manual. Targeting cruising to work every now and then around 1800 rpm at 60 or so mph so thinking 3.46-3.73 rear gears with some sort of limited slip.

- What I'm thinking: used 6.0-6.2L LS based motor with LS3 heads/intake, reworked factory computer, longtube headers, and a rowdy sounding cam (sound is non-negotiable!). Trans; seems like the new TKX would be perfect with a .68 fifth gear and a 3.55-3.73 final. I'm liking the GM LS7 clutch for this setup. I'm very interested in mini-tubbing the car and going with a 295-ish tire in the rear. Getting a complete 12 bolt rear from a company like American powertrain (open to leafs or coil-overs, don't think a back-half is necessary or in the budget) and upgrading the front stock with a basic disc setup. Probably 2in drop spindles.

- What I do have so far. 70 Nova body shell complete. Most recently a tired 355 ci SB and Muncie 4 Spd car with stock small 10 bolt rear and single leaf setup. 2007 Suburban 1500 with over 200K on the clock. However, I put a brand new 5.3 crate engine in it about 3K mi ago. 2003 Yukon Denali XL 6.0 with about 250K mi. Only issue with that is I gave it to my brother when his car died with the caveat that I get it back when it finally goes or he gets something else. I wasn't expecting it to last him another 10 years! Easy answer is to get my brother to buy the 'Burban for cheap and I get the 6.0 out of the Denali, but, his finances are prioritized to replacing his wife's vehicle before his.

- Budget: I'd like the car to be moving its self reliably under about $10K.

So, over to you guys to flesh out the plan with what you'd do and any advice on the direction to go, companies, LS swap products, etc that I need to be looking at. I have a local tuner (National Speed in Wilmington NC) that I'm going to be having a similar conversation with as they are who I've chosen to do the computer work. I'm at a career where my time is at a premium, so junkyard diving, etc, is not something Im interested in. Also, more importantly, PLEASE answer any question Im not smart enough to be asking; you dont know what you dont know!

Thanks for your time and look forward to the discussion.



How it’s sitting now

 

Well you're in luck, since there has never before been so much aftermarket support for doing what you want to do. Holley makes a kit that will literally allow you to drop the engine in in a day, no fab work necessary. Sounds like you know what you want, so just go for it! You will get better answers if you ask specific questions that may pop up, since these swaps have been done a lot, people get tired of retyping the same info all the time. Looks like you've got a nice roller to start with, should be nice when it's done, and you won't regret doing the swap!

 

Well said LS1nova. I have the same frame that you do and went with the Holley kit which dropped right in. There was clearance around everything and it is just a very well designed kit. I think you are on the right track with the 6.0 with LS3 top end, but I'll tell you building an LS motor adds up very quickly. The only other comment I'll make which will likely be a common reply, is ditch the stock ECU and harness and get a Terminator X kit. Unless you can do it all yourself from tuning to reworking the harness, the Holley EFI makes life so much easier. Plus you get a brand new harness not a 20+ YO harness with brittle wires. Also be sure to research your engine accessories as it may require notching the frame to fit them properly.

Nova looks great, keep us posted on your progress.

 

10K with your recipe will be tight.... All Holley swap components, terminator X harness.. its all going to add up really fast! Then if you want manual that is going to be a good amount of fab work cutting your tunnel up whereas an auto will bolt right in. Best thing to do is start reading other threads and make a list and price it. Know what you are getting into before you pull the trigger!

 

Although some of the threads are dated (mine included), you'll be well ahead to read through the X-body swap thread in my signature link. It gives a good breakdown of the adapters, headers, pans, trans crossmembers, and accessory drives people have used. Those items all work together to achieve physical fitment, so pay attention to what combinations "work" and whether they required modifications. The TKX exterior dimensions are not very different from the TKO, so you should get a rough idea of the worst case tunnel mods that would be required for that transmission.

Three areas that made fitment more difficult on my car:
(1) I wanted to use an OE low mount AC compressor and alternator so I notched my frame. Some people have put a low mount 00-02 F-body alternator in without notching, but that will very much depend on the engine mounts, accessory spacing, and drivetrain angle you use. If you want to avoid these issues, use higher mount accessories.
(2) I have factory AC, so I had to select headers with very close #6 & 8 primary tubes and relocate my ignition coils for AC "suitcase" clearance. I also did some very minor notching and fiberglass patching of my AC suitcase. I only know of a handful of people that have fit an LS with a factory AC suitcase, so hopefully you don't have this issue.
(3) I put a big/long Magnum-F transmission into my car which meant cutting a huge section of the tunnel out and building a new one (this is not yet reflected in my build thread). The TKX is shorter and will likely require a lot less modification to install. I highly recommend Silver Sport Transmissions as they were a great vendor to work with. Their hydraulic clutch setup for this application is great and they have all the right parts to put Tremec transmissions into these cars, even using the factory shifter location if desired. I would suggest getting mounts, pan, headers, and crossmember from one vendor (Holley for example), and get the TKX trans and pedal/hydraulic setup from Silver Sport.

Engine upgrades, wiring, and tuning will be the same for just about any swap. Depending on what pieces you have from the donor car you may find it cheaper to rework your harness or you may prefer to have everything new depending on your skills and risk tolerance. I reworked my harness. Making one stand alone isn't very complicated if you don't change much on the engine and you are okay with cutting and soldering wiring, removing pins, etc. But if you want to modify for better fitment or if you are mixing and matching sensors and things from different engines (for example, putting a car intake on a truck engine with different sensor types or replacing a tube type MAF with a card type MAF), it can get complicated and require some specialty tools to do it right. For that kind of thing a new, configuration-specific harness would be a good option.

If you have any questions or want to connect, I'm always happy to provide my $0.02. Feel free to connect on Instagram as well - I'm @ chevyhotrodder but you will have to let me know who you are so I can accept your follow request.

 

I like your approach. For the Nova specific stuff, I don't have anything I can offer, and the other have it handled well. For the engine, here are my thoughts.

You have some specific wants/needs: Muscle car sound, and Street/Cruiser with good torque to work with a stick shift. It also looks like a very nice build with good parts.

So, a 6.0 or 6.2 is the way to go. If budget would allow, I'd go right to a crate LS3, but it is more than many can swallow. So you'll want to think about how old of an engine you are comfortable with, or if you want to build something.

I think Cathedral vs Rectangle ports isn't such a big deal, either will work. Stock vs stock, cath ports make more torque under 3500-4000 rpm. For an automatic, or race application, not a big deal, with a stick that you want to cruise, then its useful. Frankly, I wouldn't care either way. The advantage of rec ports is they breathe fine on their own at that power level. On cathedral ports, getting stock heads CNCd is a good gain.

I'd say don't over cam it. Big mistake people make. If you want good sound, good throttle response and low end response with the stick, try to get compression up, if you can.

All that said, any 6.2 with a cam, with good intake and exhaust will meet your goal
Any 6.0 with cam, decent heads (rec port, CNCd stock, etc), and intake/exhaust, will meet your goal.

An LY6 gets you a newer 6.0, with rec heads, but compression is below 10:1
LQ9s get you flat tops (Iron LS2), but not many of them, and older
LQ4s are more common, but getting old/beat, and are the lowest compression at ~9.5 or so.

I would think a cam in the mid-upper 220s, lift matched to what the heads can flow, would be good for a great driving car. For a couple bucks more, one of the places can custom grind it, to get a little more sound out of it if you want. You can go into the low-mid 230s, but you are sliding the torque upward in the RPM. You'll need to watch PtV clearance for sure, if you start getting bigger.

In my case, in my 1972 GMC Jimmy, I have a low miles (GM reman) LQ4, with stock 317 heads that previous owner had CNCd (they ran a blower, so it's still the stock 9.4:1 compression ratio). I have a 223/231 cam, 0.637/0.617 lift, aggressive lobes (PCM of NC Attitude V2 LS2 cam, left over from another project), 1-7/8" long tubes, 92mm TB with TBSS intake manifold, free flowing intake and exhaust. This combo is very strong on the street, idles/cruises all day, no cam surging. Sounds good, but not super rowdy. I would expect this combo is in the range of 475 hp at the crank. Now, I run a 4L65e, with a 3200 stall Yank billet converter, but it has no gripes running with converter locked at 1700 rpm in 4th. This is a 4500lb truck on 33" tires. I rev to 6600 rpm. Decent flowing heads and the exhaust split on the cam lev it carry power well. I expect this would be an 11 second engine in a car.

I would like a little more. Right now, I hang nose to nose with low 13 cars on the street. I would love another 50 HP. So, I need to think how to do so. If I stay NA, I need to get compression up to around 11:1, which on an LQ4, then running CNCd / milled 5.3 heads would likely net me 20-25 ft-lbs across the board. And then I'd step up a little in cam, to maybe a 226 -> 228 range. Everyone's got a 'sloppy stage 2' style cam, they are good performers. LOL, for not much more cash, I could put a GT45 on it, run 5 lbs of boost and make 600+ HP.

For a 6.2, I'd run as is
For an LY6, i'd think about milling stock heads. Flycut if needed for valve clearance
For an LQ9, i'd get some 243/799s, CNCd
For an LQ4, I'd get some 5.3 heads, CNCd/milled.

Last, for 2 years, I ran stock 1999 computer, with a painless Gen 3 stand alone harness. I tuned myself with HP tuners.
I bought a Terminator X Maxx the day they were released, its been perfect, and great to work with. Much easier for me to tune, and offers a lot of benefits for me over stock.

If you plan to get a tune and never tinker with it, either is fine. The cost is often no different. I think the Holley is much easier to understand and tune. I love real time tuning and datalogging with it. It also integrates well if you want to run one of their digital dashes later.

 

Dorkiness aside, you might find some value in Richard Holdener's youtube channel. He has a ton of 6.0 and 6.2 dyno videos. Don't take it as the gospel, but it does give some good information.

 

All, Thanks for the discussion and advice. I'm surprised there wasn't more discussion of using either my Suburban or Yukon as a donor car. I was expecting more along the lines of recommendations of who to send the harness to for modifying and other parts I could use on the Nova such as the factory radiator, etc, as a response. But your replies all make sense.

@ryeguy2006a Thanks for the info concerning the TerminatorX kit; I didnt know that existed. For just a cruiser, how does that make life easier vice re-working the factory harness, and having a tuner go through the factory ECU? Dont read this as argumentative, I just wasnt expecting the recommendation to ditch the stock ECU. I was under the impression that the stock ECU dyno and road tuned via a program such as HPTuner and EFILive by a professional tuner for the exact engine/ trans combo in the car would be a much truer tune than what Im seeing the Terminator kits offer. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like Holley installs a base map and the computer "learns" what it needs from there? Just seems like a dedicated mapping of the MAF functions and timing tables would be better.

@-TheBandit- Amazing work on your writeup. Definately a solid research piece. BTW, Im a Mech-E by education as well so I like your thought processes! Couple of thoughts for anyone reading this later. Firstly, the TKX is a much easier swap than the TKO as it's slimmer in critical places to avoid having to modify the trans tunnels on muscle cars; it was specifically designed to replace the TKO as a swap transmission. Secondly, great recommendation on notching the frame. I've read about that, and was planning on doing just that to preserve the ability to use the low-mount accessories from either of the two trucks I can pull from.

My car wasn't a factory AC car. I removed the factory heater box, etc, and am planning on going with Vintage Air. Thats another topic I have to learn about.

Again, Thanks all for your input.

 

I'd say that Aftermarket vs. OEM ECU is going to be a personal preference. I have run factory 0411 ECU's and harnesses in the past and currently have HP Tuners. I have tuned my own vehicles as well as some basic tuning for others. I switched to Terminator X about 1 1/2 ago and made things much easier to get up and running. The self-tuning is limited only to the fueling, and all other aspects are going to be very similar to any other tuning. However, where it really shines in my opinion is the ability to customize. If you want to add an input or output it's as simple as going into the software and making the change. You can use it to control external accessories, you can add safeties (such as low oil pressure shut off), integrated boost control, transmission control (or in my case the ability to more easily add VSS with The X Max), and etc. I recently swapped my base X ECU out for the X Max for some additional features such as DBW.

Do you plan on doing the harness rework and tuning or are you going to outsource that?

 

Sounds like a cool build.

So what I think out loud is, don't buy any cam/engine control components until you have bought the engine. Different year engines have different sensor locations, different reluctor wheels (so you need a different harness).

So one big item is the longblock. If you plan to keep this car forever, I'd be on the look out for an aluminum LS3 or variant. Aluminum blocks are 110 lbs lighter than iron. I run a Gwatney 229/243 in a L99 (5th gen auto trans), and it made 480rwhp with underdrive, hand ported heads and rod modded OE intake.

I'd go Holley EFI. Thing is if you try to go stock computer, you need that, someone to make you a custom harness, and you still need to tune it. At least with the Holley you can get it started on your own. Holley is also easier to tune, you can tune it real time. With a stock computer, you or the tuner will basically run the car, log it, shut it off, make changes, reflash, run it, log it again, and over and over. By the way I have both in two different cars.

My '67 I run a Holley 302 oil pan, fits great, excellent ground clearance.

Another tip is cooling. Lots of ways to go with the fan and radiator assembly, but first I'd figure out what's the widest one you can run. Also reach the inlet/outlet placement and what works with your planned combo.

 

Did some research on the TerminatorX and I can see why it's so recommended. Everyone touts it as the 'Easy Button'. I wouldn't think twice if I was buying a take-out motor.

*But, what's holding me back is the fact that I have both a 07 Suburban with a 5.3 (only about 5K mi on a crate motor to replace the original) and an 03 Yukon Denali XL with a 6.0. Both are on the table to be a good donor vehicle for this project. I was thinking: engine, wiring harness, ECU, radiator, and anything else I could cannibalize. This is one of the reasons I was thinking $10K would be a decent budget for the powertrain.

 

If you are doing the harness rework and have HP tuners to flash to get it started I'd say go for it. Like John said if you have to pay someone to rework it and pay someone to flash the ECU it makes Terminator X look very appealing. Plus with that ECU there is a lot of room to grow. Say you start out with the 03 6.0 which has 24x reluctor wheel and a few years down the road you want an LS3 with a 58x reluctor wheel. Just log in to the software and tell it you are 58x, update the tune and either repin a few wires or buy a 58x harness. It's really that easy. With a stock ECU you would need to get a whole new harness and ECU and then pay someone to reflash it again.

Also to add to what Clint said about having to modify the tunnel for the T56 Magnum. With my Holley mounts I didn't need any tunnel modifications to fit my T56 Magnum (Technically a TR6060/ T56 Magnum but has the same exterior dimensions). Not even a BFH clearance around anything. Another win for the Holley mounts and associated parts.

 

You know, you are really starting to convince me!! The more I look at that product, the more I like it. And with that nugget about the T-56, Ill start to look more seriously at the 6 Spd vice a TKX 5 spd. I wonder if there are still any used ones out there? I spent some time on the Holley website, and , after that and reading your build thread (Amazing job, by the way! That was an immense amount of work.), I'm pretty set on Holley swap products.

 

Perhaps folks who have had harnessed modified can share what they paid, I'm thinking $400-500 there. Add in $500 for an HPT tune?

I know 1-2 remote tuners who charge $300-400 to tune a car, and that includes touchups.

 

For 500 crank hp I would not do 5.3, I'd go 6.0-6.2, make 420-450rwhp cammed with a moderate cam.

 

I would use the 6.0 that you have. It already there and you know its good. I did a 2001 Denali 6.0 LQ4 swap in my 78 Nova. I love the drive by wire. I changed to 243/799 heads for a little more compression, WS6 store ASA high lift cam and all new internals since I plan to keep the car. I used the factory ECM with a PSI harness mostly because I love to go out and cruise and I have one touch cruise control that you cant get with Holley. It made 413 HP to the tires with a decent stall converter new but after swapping from turbo mufflers to Borla Pro mufflers and breaking in the engine it has more by the seat of my pants HP. I had LT1swap.com do the initial tune on the ECM and then had a local shop (Powerhouse Performance, in Grifton NC) do the dyno tune. I used speed engineering headers, (perfect fit) and an LS6 intake. The front drive is all ICT Billet truck spacing with an F-body water pump and ICT billet spacers with the Denali alternator and PS pump and the AC compressor, lines and parts are new from Original Air, (great to work with). I swapped in a 3:73 8.8 rear with new leafs and Caltrack bars but still have traction issues but no regrets.

 

I've done several full on stand alone harness conversions and charged $450, plus the cost to unlock the ECU which is another $99 from HPT. I've also done several where guys mail me the ECU and I will do basic stuff like VATS unlock and rear o2 deletes for around $150. The other great thing about Holley that I've found is guys are willing to share tunes. So if you have a similar build as another guy and he's willing to share, you can get a great baseline tune for your car.

 

Results will vary! The tunnel shape and floorpan/crossmembers are not the same between the 1st gen Camaro and 3rd gen Nova. On the Nova there is a crossmember just under seat area. I haven't seen anyone put a T56 or Magnum in a Nova without having to notch or completely cut through that crossmember. The front part of the tunnel sometimes doesn't always need cutting if the engine is far enough forward and the drivetrain mounted low enough, but I did have to cut mine.

The TKX was not available when I selected my transmission. It would have been in the running due to the advantage of fitment, but the ratios would not have been very good with my current rear gear ratio (3.73s) and tire height (25.4in). The first gear ratio on the TKX is 2.87 or 3.27 vs my close ratio magnum-f is 2.66. I think the TKX 1st gearing is just too deep. I'm already shifting out of 1st about 2/3 the way through a corner after stopping and turning from a stop sign. If I had a lower first like the TKX or wide ratio Magnum, 1st gear would not be very useful. Also I find the two overdrive gears 0.8 and 0.63 are both very useful on my Magnum-F. Around town I often find myself in 5th gear when humming down a 45mph road. Then as I get onto the background or highway, I can drop to 6th and hum along. The overdrive gears have been a game changer for me! Definitely run the ratio/speed calculators and think about your intended use before deciding on ratios.

Another very important consideration for trans selection is shifter location. Engine placement and trans length are going to influence this. I noticed others using the TKO and standard Magnum transmissions tended to have long swept back shift levers similar to the original shifters on Muncis. That long shift lever can exaggerate any slop in the system and feel more disconnected from the transmission, not to mention result in longer throws. I measured carefully to see where my shifter would end up with these transmissions and felt it was way too far forward to be comfortable for me. So I chose the Magnum-F which has the shifter about 1.5" behind the rearmost Magnum position. This location worked out perfectly for me. I am using a 6" laid-back shift lever which gives it a very good feel and positions the ball perfectly. This was the result of mocking up different positions and potential lever lengths until I found a perfect fit. I don't think I'd want the TKX shifter location. But this came at the cost of cutting more of the floor away.

I really need to write up my trans swap. I just haven't had time yet to do so. If you connect with me on Instagram I have lots of photos there. I'm @ chevyhotrodder. DM me so I know who you are and I can accept your friend request.

 

I think you're on the right track looking closely at the Holley EFI stuff. I might have gone that route from the get-go if the Terminator stuff was available when I did my swap.

 

I think ALOT of us would. Not just Holleys stuff either.