Thinking about putting an LS7 into my e46 M3
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Teching In
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Originally Posted by E36LUVA
The LS7 swap would be awesome and it would work great with a Speartech harness but the rest of the car will not like it at all because of the CAN system. Your ABS, Tranction, HVAC system would be so confused that they probably wont work at all. You'll end up messing up the whole car. It'll make a great race car where all those items wont matter but as a street car forget it.
I'm contacting some BMW specific tuning shops to see if they have interest in dealing with that end of things...
Originally Posted by Obioban
why would i need to change the speedo at all? I would think it's wheel speed based, not engine based?
And guys you are letting this CAN data bus system scare you. I'm a Audi tech and its not that big of a deal once you know what it does... the car still uses very similar controllers, and actuators it just use this CAN system to get information to them much faster. I'm sure there is a way to over lap the ECM from the BWM to keep all the systems working as normal and turn off the engine controls, just like in tuning a LS1 when you delete functions the read as ready
Teching In
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LS2 based engine ECM's are CAN compliant. You will need to do a lot of research to see if the protocol is robust enough to allow the GM ECM to talk to all the BMW modules.
In regards to wheel speed the sensor is located in the diff. On my E36 I didn't have to change anything. The GM ECM already outputs the appropriate pulse train for the Tach on a 6 cyl. For your sake, I hope the same is true of the E46.
Apparently LS2Edit has some ability to modify the CAN portion of the GM ECM. Maybe with a lot of research you can make it work.
Matt
In regards to wheel speed the sensor is located in the diff. On my E36 I didn't have to change anything. The GM ECM already outputs the appropriate pulse train for the Tach on a 6 cyl. For your sake, I hope the same is true of the E46.
Apparently LS2Edit has some ability to modify the CAN portion of the GM ECM. Maybe with a lot of research you can make it work.
Matt
Thread Starter
Teching In
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Originally Posted by MattP
LS2 based engine ECM's are CAN compliant. You will need to do a lot of research to see if the protocol is robust enough to allow the GM ECM to talk to all the BMW modules.
In regards to wheel speed the sensor is located in the diff. On my E36 I didn't have to change anything. The GM ECM already outputs the appropriate pulse train for the Tach on a 6 cyl. For your sake, I hope the same is true of the E46.
Apparently LS2Edit has some ability to modify the CAN portion of the GM ECM. Maybe with a lot of research you can make it work.
Matt
In regards to wheel speed the sensor is located in the diff. On my E36 I didn't have to change anything. The GM ECM already outputs the appropriate pulse train for the Tach on a 6 cyl. For your sake, I hope the same is true of the E46.
Apparently LS2Edit has some ability to modify the CAN portion of the GM ECM. Maybe with a lot of research you can make it work.
Matt
LSX Edit
http://carputing.tripod.com/
I would also talk to the guys at HP tunners as well they might have something as well.
http://www.hptuners.com/
EFI live
http://www.efilive.com/
http://carputing.tripod.com/
I would also talk to the guys at HP tunners as well they might have something as well.
http://www.hptuners.com/
EFI live
http://www.efilive.com/
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wheel speed
Originally Posted by Sabre002
Because I'm more then sure that the pulses per min from a BMW are not the same as a GM sensor. You will not have to chnage the speedo you just need a dakota digital box to convert the signal for you. Wheel speed sensors are more for ABS and traction control operation not the speedo.
Teching In
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CAN is a serial protocol for control modules to relay information back and forth. If the brake module or DCS module needs to know the position of the throttle and which gear the transmission is in, for example, to make decisions appropriate for its job it can get the information from the other modules on the CAN. If GM and BMW are both CAN compliant and requesting the same information, they should be able to talk to each other. I can't promise anything, but this was the purpose of the protocol in the first place.
Matt
Matt
On The Tree
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I've wondered this myself, my understanding though is that the protocol is a standard format but the identifiers, which can be different sizes, are manufacturer specific. As are data speeds. I would be very concerned about things like air-bags and creating faults by trying to interface the can buses. Future will be aftermarket interface modules that allow the two systems to talk. I set these up for industry for a living and I can tell you it would be a real challenge without intimate knowledge from both manufacturers(good luck).
You would have to ensure that the BMW ECU remains in the car and it is still hooked up to the critical signals from the engine/car(tricking the ecu and chassis into thinking the S54 is still running the show). This would be a major undertaking to attempt with the real possibility that it would never work completely. Race car, sure easy, street car with all working features, doubtful.
You would have to ensure that the BMW ECU remains in the car and it is still hooked up to the critical signals from the engine/car(tricking the ecu and chassis into thinking the S54 is still running the show). This would be a major undertaking to attempt with the real possibility that it would never work completely. Race car, sure easy, street car with all working features, doubtful.
Originally Posted by Cam72aro
Sorry buddy, but you are wrong on this one. I am a MASTER BMW tech as I stated above and the left rear wheel speed is what is used for the speedo. Not just for the abs and dsc, ie traction control. Can networks for audi are not the same thing as bmw. We sent massive amounts of data over a 2 wire can bus consisting of can high and can low. It isnt just one set of info, it is many, many, many different signals from many contorl units. That e46 m3 has more control units than most people think. It is not sofisticated as an e65, 745 but still pretty complex for the normal person. THe e65 is called that because it has 65 control unit, or computers on it. I agree with the post about it being a race car. If it was then all this would be ok, but I dont think that is what he wants. I wouldnt do it. I would put a turbo kit on it. You can easily put down 500hp to the wheels and still have everything working properly. My 2 cents, hope it helps, Josh
Does BMW not use a bosch based CAN system?
Here are just somethings I have pulled on Bosch
http://researchinfo.bosch.com/conten.../html/5197.htm
I want to say that GM use Delphi, this might casue some issues.
Here is some Delphi info as well
http://www.delphi.com/pdf/techpapers/1999-01-1277.PDF
Josh
Last edited by Sabre002; Feb 5, 2007 at 09:12 PM.
not turning this into a contest I dont feel that you see the reality of what is involved in this swap. You are giving false hope. Bmw does use Bosch, but like above posts, transfer rates vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. The best way would be to leave the stock s54 dme in place, but making it think that the engine is running when it isnt there is going to be strange. FOr the fifth time, mod the stock engine and be happier. Leave the ls7 for something that would be realistic. I dont know an easier way to put this, the swap isnt going to happen. Let it rest!!!! Give up.
So if finally comes out. I think it just pisses you off being a BMW tech and someone taking about removing the legendary BMW strait 6 from this M3. You don’t even want someone to attempt this. Sounds just like all the guys over on RX7 Club to me don’t put a LS1 in a RX7 it was not meant for it.
I still think if some real homework is done on this it can be done just because a BWM tech thinks it will never happen does not mean it can't. Now I'm not going to lie and say it will be easy or strait forward and you might be on you own for most of the wiring and electrics. I would talk to the people that really know what they are doing with this type of thing talk to the companies that do this everyday I'm sure someone will have the answers you a looking for.
I still think if some real homework is done on this it can be done just because a BWM tech thinks it will never happen does not mean it can't. Now I'm not going to lie and say it will be easy or strait forward and you might be on you own for most of the wiring and electrics. I would talk to the people that really know what they are doing with this type of thing talk to the companies that do this everyday I'm sure someone will have the answers you a looking for.
bmw
Originally Posted by Sabre002
So if finally comes out. I think it just pisses you off being a BMW tech and someone taking about removing the legendary BMW strait 6 from this M3. You don’t even want someone to attempt this. Sounds just like all the guys over on RX7 Club to me don’t put a LS1 in a RX7 it was not meant for it.
I still think if some real homework is done on this it can be done just because a BWM tech thinks it will never happen does not mean it can't. Now I'm not going to lie and say it will be easy or strait forward and you might be on you own for most of the wiring and electrics. I would talk to the people that really know what they are doing with this type of thing talk to the companies that do this everyday I'm sure someone will have the answers you a looking for.
I still think if some real homework is done on this it can be done just because a BWM tech thinks it will never happen does not mean it can't. Now I'm not going to lie and say it will be easy or strait forward and you might be on you own for most of the wiring and electrics. I would talk to the people that really know what they are doing with this type of thing talk to the companies that do this everyday I'm sure someone will have the answers you a looking for.
Sweet then I'm all for this is just sounded like you were so one sided on this becasue you work on BMW's.
I still think this would be a great undertaking and I would love to do one my self, I life for doing stuff like this. This is going to take some real home work, You will more then likely need a BMW service book or I'm sure you have a program similar to what I have audi Aesis. It is full of all the info you would need on how everything works on that M3. Also you will need to talk with someone like the guys from LS1 EDIT or HP Tunners to see how to go about getting the electronics to all work together.
I still think this would be a great undertaking and I would love to do one my self, I life for doing stuff like this. This is going to take some real home work, You will more then likely need a BMW service book or I'm sure you have a program similar to what I have audi Aesis. It is full of all the info you would need on how everything works on that M3. Also you will need to talk with someone like the guys from LS1 EDIT or HP Tunners to see how to go about getting the electronics to all work together.
On The Tree
Joined: Jan 2004
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Originally Posted by Sabre002
Sweet then I'm all for this is just sounded like you were so one sided on this becasue you work on BMW's.
I still think this would be a great undertaking and I would love to do one my self, I life for doing stuff like this. This is going to take some real home work, You will more then likely need a BMW service book or I'm sure you have a program similar to what I have audi Aesis. It is full of all the info you would need on how everything works on that M3. Also you will need to talk with someone like the guys from LS1 EDIT or HP Tunners to see how to go about getting the electronics to all work together.
I still think this would be a great undertaking and I would love to do one my self, I life for doing stuff like this. This is going to take some real home work, You will more then likely need a BMW service book or I'm sure you have a program similar to what I have audi Aesis. It is full of all the info you would need on how everything works on that M3. Also you will need to talk with someone like the guys from LS1 EDIT or HP Tunners to see how to go about getting the electronics to all work together.
These electronic systems are very complex and the integration is immense, as I've said above, tricking the setup is the simplest path, I think it could be done as the LS1 PCM is stand alone. The key would be finding out what signals the BMW ECU has to receive, a corvette PCM with drive by wire TB could be made to work with the BMW pedal.
Also there are much better/cheaper paths then starting with an LS7
Dinan M5
I'm not sure how/if this helps any but look at what Dinan (arguably one of the top BMW tuners around) had to go through to get the electronics sorted out. I'm not here to say whether you should or shouldn't do this, just maybe trying to calm the waters a bit.
I'm not sure how/if this helps any but look at what Dinan (arguably one of the top BMW tuners around) had to go through to get the electronics sorted out. I'm not here to say whether you should or shouldn't do this, just maybe trying to calm the waters a bit.