LS1 Supra
On The Tree
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 127
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From: DFW, ATL, Tallahassee
Hey guys, I thought I would give this thread a heads-up. Thanks to all that support the MKIV endeavor and provide useful information such as weights. I may make a duplicate thread eventually, so everyone can discuss the swap. V8 Supra Builder, I have seen your threads before. Keep up the good work! I have thought about PM'ing you in an attempt to gain some insight to the wiring, but I didn't know where to start.
Originally Posted by dotstereo
V8 Supra Builder, I have seen your threads before. Keep up the good work! I have thought about PM'ing you in an attempt to gain some insight to the wiring, but I didn't know where to start.
Seriously though, thanks, wiring was a lot to wade through and I still don't have a functional tach. Speartech is a great resource, he helped out with my miswired fuel pump relay as well as the alternator wiring on my LT1 280Z. I did a lot of extra work on the Supra removing unused wiring such as EGR/AIR, in hindsight I might have left it alone. I don't plan on doing this again on the RX7 I'm currently building.
There is also a place called Baker Electronix that makes some adapters (combo VATS/O2 sim, tach adapter) that I used, they are very reasonable and make a good product.
Feel free to PM me and I'll be glad to help out as I can, I don't have any experience with the MKIV, but I'm sure some of the wiring is the same.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
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From: SPARKS
well i priced out both worlds and ls1 gots it beat...i get most parts at cost so ls1 will be cheaper. as far as the electrical i will be going with autometer complete in dash gauges. im not fooling around with stock gauges. and i will try to make the t56 fit. cut and weld. and i thought about makeing a new diff cradle and using a diff out of a ctsv. just an idea i want a bullet proof ride. does anyone know how much a stock gen3 diff can handle and is it a lsd?
The Toyota diffs come in two versions that I've had. My '88 NA had an open version, gear ratio was around 3.90:1. The '91 parts car I bought had an LSD, and it is geared at 4.30:1. It had the TEMS suspension system and more options than my '88. I don't know what the turbo versions have, there is a code for the diff in the car I remember looking at. Here is a link to a Toyota axle code decoder page. You need the code from your car's build plate on the engine firewall. According to another page on that site, the ring gear is 8". so it would be larger than a 3rd/4th gen F-body but smaller than a F**d 9" or a GM 12 bolt.
The swap was really easy, just a few bolts for the axles and the housing itself- I did this with both cars jacked up in the rear in under an hour.
The swap was really easy, just a few bolts for the axles and the housing itself- I did this with both cars jacked up in the rear in under an hour.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
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From: SPARKS
my car is an hour away at my dads shop so when i go over there for easter i will have to take down some serial numbers. i think i found an doner car, i called my insurance co. about any wrecked or stolen 98-02 camaro or firebird with a v8 and a manual and she thinks there is one about 4 hours away. i should get it cheep since i know the insurance agent.
Originally Posted by MikeD101898
For the most part... not true.
More potential? No. Does the LS1 have the potential of pushing 1XXX hp on stock internals like the Supra does?... No.
Less weight? No. Inline 6 compared to a large V8
Cheaper to build? Depends. Normal slap on this and that, yes. The LS1 is cheaper because the parts are so available. And going single in a Supra is a pretty penny. I guess about the same (maybe a little more) than putting a large turbo setup on a LS1. But then while doing so, the LS1 MUST build internals, as well as all other supporting mods. Where the Supra does not NEED to do, in order to be above the LS1's potential.
It's late so I'm sure I'm forgetting some things.
Also I own both a MKIV turbo, and 98 Camaro Z28. So please no flamming as I am not partial to either side. Well **** that isn't true... I am VERY partial to BOTH sides.
Getting back to thread, I would say it all depends on what you can afford, and what your power goals are. Under 500 LS1, over-2JZ GTE with single swap.
More potential? No. Does the LS1 have the potential of pushing 1XXX hp on stock internals like the Supra does?... No.
Less weight? No. Inline 6 compared to a large V8
Cheaper to build? Depends. Normal slap on this and that, yes. The LS1 is cheaper because the parts are so available. And going single in a Supra is a pretty penny. I guess about the same (maybe a little more) than putting a large turbo setup on a LS1. But then while doing so, the LS1 MUST build internals, as well as all other supporting mods. Where the Supra does not NEED to do, in order to be above the LS1's potential.
It's late so I'm sure I'm forgetting some things.
Also I own both a MKIV turbo, and 98 Camaro Z28. So please no flamming as I am not partial to either side. Well **** that isn't true... I am VERY partial to BOTH sides.
Getting back to thread, I would say it all depends on what you can afford, and what your power goals are. Under 500 LS1, over-2JZ GTE with single swap.
First. Show me a stock bottom end 2jz that supports over 700 hp reliably. You wont find one. Maybe a trailer queen that never gets ran, but not a daily driven street car. The LS1 is capable of that also. And easily capable of 1XXX hp if tuned right and never ran.
Second. Yes the iron block 2jz is much heavier than the LS1. I thought everyone knew that. Last time I checked it was over 600 lbs., quite a bit more than the LS1.
Third. Yes cheaper to build. But when I say that I'm speaking of dollars per HP. The LS1 would win with bolt ons of course, but after that you have to remember you're still dealing with twice the engine displacement. And we all know there is no replacement for displacement, especially when dealing with extremely high dollar engine builds.
I have more experience with 2JZ's than LS1's, and IMO they are grossly overrated.
Last edited by GTOpowered240sx; Apr 5, 2007 at 10:38 PM.
lets compare power bands stock for stock....
lets compare power bands turbo for turbo....
lets compare horsepower per lb of boost(on same turbo)....
lets compare all aluminum newer technology to left over toyota engineering....
lets compare simplicity of design and less intricate dealer only replacement parts.....
lets compare normal parts availability....
lets compare ease of maintenance....
lets compare room to work....
lets compare GAS MILEAGE(lol)....
hmmm. 2jz cleary wins this discussion
i like the 2jz and what i brings to the table. but for the trouble and money dollar for dollar the ls1 wins. id much rather a cammed ls1 over a bpu 2jz.
lets compare power bands turbo for turbo....
lets compare horsepower per lb of boost(on same turbo)....
lets compare all aluminum newer technology to left over toyota engineering....
lets compare simplicity of design and less intricate dealer only replacement parts.....
lets compare normal parts availability....
lets compare ease of maintenance....
lets compare room to work....
lets compare GAS MILEAGE(lol)....
hmmm. 2jz cleary wins this discussion
i like the 2jz and what i brings to the table. but for the trouble and money dollar for dollar the ls1 wins. id much rather a cammed ls1 over a bpu 2jz.
Originally Posted by GTOpowered240sx
Wow, you may want to recheck some of that.....
First. Show me a stock bottom end 2jz that supports over 700 hp reliably. You wont find one. Maybe a trailer queen that never gets ran, but not a daily driven street car. The LS1 is capable of that also. And easily capable of 1XXX hp if tuned right and never ran.
Second. Yes the iron block 2jz is much heavier than the LS1. I thought everyone knew that. Last time I checked it was over 600 lbs., quite a bit more than the LS1.
Third. Yes cheaper to build. But when I say that I'm speaking of dollars per HP. The LS1 would win with bolt ons of course, but after that you have to remember you're still dealing with twice the engine displacement. And we all know there is no replacement for displacement, especially when dealing with extremely high dollar engine builds.
I have more experience with 2JZ's than LS1's, and IMO they are grossly overrated.
First. Show me a stock bottom end 2jz that supports over 700 hp reliably. You wont find one. Maybe a trailer queen that never gets ran, but not a daily driven street car. The LS1 is capable of that also. And easily capable of 1XXX hp if tuned right and never ran.
Second. Yes the iron block 2jz is much heavier than the LS1. I thought everyone knew that. Last time I checked it was over 600 lbs., quite a bit more than the LS1.
Third. Yes cheaper to build. But when I say that I'm speaking of dollars per HP. The LS1 would win with bolt ons of course, but after that you have to remember you're still dealing with twice the engine displacement. And we all know there is no replacement for displacement, especially when dealing with extremely high dollar engine builds.
I have more experience with 2JZ's than LS1's, and IMO they are grossly overrated.
LS1 capable of 700hp while reliable on stock internals?
No. Yes the 2JZ is heavier by about 100lbs. It's in the 500's not 600's btw.
How would the LS1 win with bolt ons? Let's see; manual boost controller=$100 if that, for 2JZ. Cam, CAI, blah blah, etc=$1,000 probably more for numbers that still wont even reach the 2JZ on stock twins for LS1.
Ok what else... no replacement for discplacement? I believed this too once, then I found the 2JZ GTE.
If you still think the 2JZ is overrated...
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On The Tree
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 158
Likes: 1
LS1 vs. 2JZ vs. 7MGTE, they're all very potent motors. If someone would rather drop an LSX engine into their MKIII Supra, let 'em do it. It's different it's cool, etc. etc. Now, the argument "no replacement for displacement" is true. If you twin turbo an LS1 with similar components used on a 2JZ, it will produce more power. It's physics. You can't compare a stock LS1 to a heavily modified 2JZ or even a mildly modified LS1 to a 1000 HP heavily modified Supra, it's apples to oranges. But build them both with similar components, the LS1 wins. Trust me, I know guys with F bodies and Supras and the heavily modified F bodies almost always win (even if not by much). Ok, so you don't agree with my argument and 'my facts are wrong' (they're not, but w/e). One thing you can't argue with is the availability and price of LSX parts and motors in general. Much cheaper than JDM stuff. If you think that it's completely unorthodox and a sin to JDM cars, then that's your perogative and go ahead and build that 2JZ. But if that's the road you're going, why the hell are you on this board?
Last edited by 9540x; Apr 6, 2007 at 10:45 AM.
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 566
Likes: 0
From: Dallas
Hmmm.... since it looks like this car isn't for handling, I'd say go with the LSX block, or one of those new billet Al LSx blocks.
The car is already front heavy anyway and needs a diet to be competitive on a road course so... whats a few more pounds for something that can make twice as much power as the 2JZ, hence the LSX iron block?
Hmm... let's compare apples to apples. Of course a non-forged motor is worse than a forged motor.
Let's stack up a Forged 408 vs a the 2jz. the 408 has a hell of a lot more useable power because the displacement, and doesnt need to rev to the moon to get useful boost.
Remember this "There's no replacement for displacement" But "Technology(turbo's) beats displacement", however it's always trumped by this "Technology AND displacement beats anything"
The car is already front heavy anyway and needs a diet to be competitive on a road course so... whats a few more pounds for something that can make twice as much power as the 2JZ, hence the LSX iron block?
Hmm... let's compare apples to apples. Of course a non-forged motor is worse than a forged motor.
Let's stack up a Forged 408 vs a the 2jz. the 408 has a hell of a lot more useable power because the displacement, and doesnt need to rev to the moon to get useful boost.
Remember this "There's no replacement for displacement" But "Technology(turbo's) beats displacement", however it's always trumped by this "Technology AND displacement beats anything"
Originally Posted by MikeD101898
Stock bottom end that holds more than 700 hp reliably? Come over, I'll show you one in my garage. Trailer queen? Haha, hardly.
LS1 capable of 700hp while reliable on stock internals? No.
Yes the 2JZ is heavier by about 100lbs. It's in the 500's not 600's btw.
How would the LS1 win with bolt ons? Let's see; manual boost controller=$100 if that, for 2JZ. Cam, CAI, blah blah, etc=$1,000 probably more for numbers that still wont even reach the 2JZ on stock twins for LS1.
Ok what else... no replacement for discplacement? I believed this too once, then I found the 2JZ GTE.
If you still think the 2JZ is overrated...
LS1 capable of 700hp while reliable on stock internals?
No. Yes the 2JZ is heavier by about 100lbs. It's in the 500's not 600's btw.
How would the LS1 win with bolt ons? Let's see; manual boost controller=$100 if that, for 2JZ. Cam, CAI, blah blah, etc=$1,000 probably more for numbers that still wont even reach the 2JZ on stock twins for LS1.
Ok what else... no replacement for discplacement? I believed this too once, then I found the 2JZ GTE.
If you still think the 2JZ is overrated...
EVERY stock bottom 2JZ I have ever seen or delt with that had over 700 hp had serious problems if they were driven often. SO yeah, how many miles have you put on your 2JZ with that power? I was dealing with 2JZ's years ago, and yes they are HIGHLY overrated. 6800 rpm redline
, Heavier than an engine TWICE its displacement , and the ONLY way to get power out of it is by forced induction . Hell, ITS HEAVIER THAN AN IRON BLOCK V8 TOO. You obviously haven't done much reading on here. There are numerous LS1's hitting these numbers on stock bottoms and holding.
Oh, And Im truly sorry for rounding up 6 lbs on thier weight, I know how sensitive you supra owners can be, atleast for the short time you own one.
And no, you'll be lucky to hit much more than 550 on the stock twins, which the LS can do WITHOUT TURBOS.
And if you actually believe there is a replacement for displacement, you've got a lot to learn. Technology can help, a lot, but not replace it. After all is said and done about your precious 2JZ, just slap the SAME SIZE TURBO ON THE LS and easily outperform the 2JZ.
Bottom line, I've been there and done 2JZ's, I know what they are really capable of, not what all the fanboys claim with 1XXX hp on the stock bottom.
So prove it. Last edited by GTOpowered240sx; Apr 6, 2007 at 02:38 PM.
Originally Posted by datboibrad
lets compare power bands stock for stock....
lets compare power bands turbo for turbo....
lets compare horsepower per lb of boost(on same turbo)....
lets compare all aluminum newer technology to left over toyota engineering....
lets compare simplicity of design and less intricate dealer only replacement parts.....
lets compare normal parts availability....
lets compare ease of maintenance....
lets compare room to work....
lets compare GAS MILEAGE(lol)....
hmmm. 2jz cleary wins this discussion
i like the 2jz and what i brings to the table. but for the trouble and money dollar for dollar the ls1 wins. id much rather a cammed ls1 over a bpu 2jz.
lets compare power bands turbo for turbo....
lets compare horsepower per lb of boost(on same turbo)....
lets compare all aluminum newer technology to left over toyota engineering....
lets compare simplicity of design and less intricate dealer only replacement parts.....
lets compare normal parts availability....
lets compare ease of maintenance....
lets compare room to work....
lets compare GAS MILEAGE(lol)....
hmmm. 2jz cleary wins this discussion
i like the 2jz and what i brings to the table. but for the trouble and money dollar for dollar the ls1 wins. id much rather a cammed ls1 over a bpu 2jz.
Its always funny to me when I see these supra guys getting all pissy about thier engine. Especially knowing that a year or 2 down the road they'll see why the ones with experience with them bash them so much. Crap, they're 14+ years old now yet the fanboys keep coming and spreading more BS they heard from someone else, and acting like they're the new hot crap.
Originally Posted by MikeD101898
Stock bottom end that holds more than 700 hp reliably? Come over, I'll show you one in my garage. Trailer queen? Haha, hardly.
LS1 capable of 700hp while reliable on stock internals? No.
Yes the 2JZ is heavier by about 100lbs. It's in the 500's not 600's btw.
How would the LS1 win with bolt ons? Let's see; manual boost controller=$100 if that, for 2JZ. Cam, CAI, blah blah, etc=$1,000 probably more for numbers that still wont even reach the 2JZ on stock twins for LS1.
Ok what else... no replacement for discplacement? I believed this too once, then I found the 2JZ GTE.
If you still think the 2JZ is overrated...
LS1 capable of 700hp while reliable on stock internals?
No. Yes the 2JZ is heavier by about 100lbs. It's in the 500's not 600's btw.
How would the LS1 win with bolt ons? Let's see; manual boost controller=$100 if that, for 2JZ. Cam, CAI, blah blah, etc=$1,000 probably more for numbers that still wont even reach the 2JZ on stock twins for LS1.
Ok what else... no replacement for discplacement? I believed this too once, then I found the 2JZ GTE.
If you still think the 2JZ is overrated...
Originally Posted by OKcruising
Remember this "There's no replacement for displacement" But "Technology(turbo's) beats displacement", however it's always trumped by this "Technology AND displacement beats anything"
A motor can be thought of as an air pump. The more you get into and out of it the more power. Technology can make it flow more effecient, but the displacement is always the biggest factor for output.
Originally Posted by 9540x
LS1 vs. 2JZ vs. 7MGTE, they're all very potent motors. If someone would rather drop an LSX engine into their MKIII Supra, let 'em do it. It's different it's cool, etc. etc. Now, the argument "no replacement for displacement" is true. If you twin turbo an LS1 with similar components used on a 2JZ, it will produce more power. It's physics. You can't compare a stock LS1 to a heavily modified 2JZ or even a mildly modified LS1 to a 1000 HP heavily modified Supra, it's apples to oranges. But build them both with similar components, the LS1 wins. Trust me, I know guys with F bodies and Supras and the heavily modified F bodies almost always win (even if not by much). Ok, so you don't agree with my argument and 'my facts are wrong' (they're not, but w/e). One thing you can't argue with is the availability and price of LSX parts and motors in general. Much cheaper than JDM stuff. If you think that it's completely unorthodox and a sin to JDM cars, then that's your perogative and go ahead and build that 2JZ. But if that's the road you're going, why the hell are you on this board?
7mgte??? How dare you put that mk3 engine in the same class as the 2jz
That pos motor blows head gaskets like no tomorrow. Anything over 300rwhp on that engine and shes toast. Been there on my 87 Turbo. I now have a 1998 mk4 and for you guys ripping the 2jz...oh my...
I encourage you guys to go to supraforums.com and read about how many DOZENS UPON DOZENS owners have 700+hp on stock blocks.
Its all over the place. And you know the funny part? Most dont have over 30k miles, they have over 70 and 80k miles! GTOPOWERED...if you blew up a 2jz with 700hp, you were doing something wrong. Learn how to tune
There are actually 3 guys right now on supraforums with dyno sheets of over 950rwhp on stock block.
I can vouch for Mike's car...it has a T88 turbo and will produce in the 900rwhp range when it gets dyno'd shortly. And guess what. ON THE STOCK BLOCK just like most of all the other owners
Also, I hope I see one of you ls1 guys testing me around town pretty quick here. I'd love to give a little lesson on a stock block supra
Last edited by ToyotaSupra; Apr 6, 2007 at 04:28 PM.
Originally Posted by GTOpowered240sx
You know, its funny. The supra fanboys are so defensive about thier precious, overrated 2JZ, but only for a short time. They never keep them for long, and there's a reason for it. They jump on the bandwagons hearing all this crap about how they'll hold 1XXX hp on the stock bottom, only to find out its not true. Then they realize how expensive it is to get the overweight motor to keep performing. Thats why you don't see many that keep them for long.
Funny, owned mine since 1999 and my LS1 in 2000...Supra is still in the garage, just getting overhauled. Stock vs stock, the supra was always 10x more enjoyable to drive. Modded, just depends on what I want to drive that day
I love both engines, LS1 and 2JZ. They are both very respectable motors and both deserve a lot of respect.
BTW, cool project. Hope to see more of it! Im a fan of engine swaps and love seeing what other people are doing
Casey
Last edited by turbo; Apr 6, 2007 at 06:36 PM.
Staging Lane
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 85
Likes: 0
From: Maryland
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
From: SPARKS
what do you mean that the car is ment to go straight. i did the math with an ls1 this car will have a better power to weight ratio and a better almost 50 50 wieght transfer. i did not start this thread to start a war LS1 vs 2jz...i dont have a 2jz i have a 7mt ????something gay with a turbo. i dont know 6 cylinder twin cams. i now ls1s sbc bbc and ford 4 cam mod motors but i wont go there.. ls1 is whats going into my third gen. im doing it becuase of the cost factor and i will be the first in northern nevada that has one that i no of come foward if you have one or know someone...ls1>2jz.....
ls1 and 2jz are both great motors for different applications. the problem with the 1xxx hp supra's you see, most run big turbo's and only generate that so highly proclaimed hp through about 2k rpm's..
i recently read a magazine article about the highest hp street supra, ran 8.8's with 1200hp. that's really ******* fast. but, look at the guys running high 8's with lsx motors in their cars, they dont have near those hp numbers, and dont need them because lsx motors have much much more power under the curve. not to mention, there's no auto option with a 2jz.
i recently read a magazine article about the highest hp street supra, ran 8.8's with 1200hp. that's really ******* fast. but, look at the guys running high 8's with lsx motors in their cars, they dont have near those hp numbers, and dont need them because lsx motors have much much more power under the curve. not to mention, there's no auto option with a 2jz.
