T56 questions...
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 18
Likes: 0
From: Stanwod, WA
Sorry for not responding sooner but was not available. You did not state which T56 you are using but I assume that it has the hydraulic throw out bearing. The master cylinder I used is from a 2000 S-10 with the 4.3 V-6. It should come complete with the line from the cylinder to the transmission and sell for about $ 90.00.
Here are a couple of threads that may be of interest to you:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/618967-more-240sx-clutch-master-questions.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/606483-clutch-line-conversion-fitting-solved.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/618967-more-240sx-clutch-master-questions.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversions-swaps/606483-clutch-line-conversion-fitting-solved.html
that was Page #3 post #48 (yeah. it was in a few other post).. but it looked good to use as the fitting would work in place of the stock hose and ends in most of the GM Masters and Slaves.
Then again.. Search is the answer...
Then again.. Search is the answer...
Let me ask something that is probably going to sound really, really stupid:
I can basically use any MC I want, Brake, Clutch or otherwise - as long as it has a 3/4" Bore and ~1" stroke, right?
I'm just curious. I notice at Summit that there are a buttload of master cylinders there, some for brakes, some for clutches, but they all look the same.
I can basically use any MC I want, Brake, Clutch or otherwise - as long as it has a 3/4" Bore and ~1" stroke, right?
I'm just curious. I notice at Summit that there are a buttload of master cylinders there, some for brakes, some for clutches, but they all look the same.
Basically, hydraulic is hydraulic..... as long as you do the math. That being if the Master and Slave have the correct bore and stroke and line size.... it will work.. granted that some hardware pieces are designed for a specfic function, but there is no reason it can't work for others.
I had to modify a f-body slave to work on a Viper T56 front adapter plate. You just have to be creative and do you home work.
Try and check with some of the Racer in your area and/or Rod builder.. they fab up and lot of different system in there Rod's and race cars.
I had to modify a f-body slave to work on a Viper T56 front adapter plate. You just have to be creative and do you home work.
Try and check with some of the Racer in your area and/or Rod builder.. they fab up and lot of different system in there Rod's and race cars.
I know I've been saying this a lot in this thread, but "thanks" yet again. I'm learning more than you can imagine here and really really appreciate everyone taking the time to help me out.
The last question I have is this: What exactly does "stroke" mean? Is that the length of travel required to achieve full compression? I'm seearching for bore and stroke here at the forum and getting nothing but engine buildup threads
I was wanting to use the Wilwood MC in this thread: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....21&postcount=6
I went to Summit and noticed it has 3/4" bore, but the stroke is 1.4". I actually should be able to create 1.4" of stroke with my pedal setup (I think), but I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what "stroke" and "bore" are and how they relate to my setup.
The last question I have is this: What exactly does "stroke" mean? Is that the length of travel required to achieve full compression? I'm seearching for bore and stroke here at the forum and getting nothing but engine buildup threads
I was wanting to use the Wilwood MC in this thread: https://ls1tech.com/forums/showpost....21&postcount=6
I went to Summit and noticed it has 3/4" bore, but the stroke is 1.4". I actually should be able to create 1.4" of stroke with my pedal setup (I think), but I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding what "stroke" and "bore" are and how they relate to my setup.
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Verdad Gallardo actually, i think i might understand it after doing some more hunting. looks like this is just like engines, where: stroke * bore = total pressure
so, if stock MC is 3/4" bore * 1" stroke and aftermarket MC i want to buy is 3/4" bore and 1.4" stroke, then i'll be creating 3/4" * 0.4" more pressure to the slave cylinder...so if i exhaust the complete 1.4" of stroke on the aftermarket MC, i will be putting more pressure at the slave cylinder, potentially blowing it up or wearing it out faster.
so, logically speaking, i suppose if i use the Wilwood aftermarket MC i'm looking at (WIL-260-1304 @ Summit), then i should be OK as long as I keep my pedal travel to 15/16" - 1" total. anything more than that and I will probably shorten the life of my slave cylinder.
can anyone confirm this?
so, if stock MC is 3/4" bore * 1" stroke and aftermarket MC i want to buy is 3/4" bore and 1.4" stroke, then i'll be creating 3/4" * 0.4" more pressure to the slave cylinder...so if i exhaust the complete 1.4" of stroke on the aftermarket MC, i will be putting more pressure at the slave cylinder, potentially blowing it up or wearing it out faster.
so, logically speaking, i suppose if i use the Wilwood aftermarket MC i'm looking at (WIL-260-1304 @ Summit), then i should be OK as long as I keep my pedal travel to 15/16" - 1" total. anything more than that and I will probably shorten the life of my slave cylinder.
can anyone confirm this?
It is volume not pressure. The volume is the amount of "space" it occupies.
You can look this up online for Math formulas (try math.com).. (3.1414 x (r square) x lenght) = .441 cube inches. That is the amount of fluid that the master will push out with one inch of travel.
It will take that amount of fluid volume to move the clutch/slave the correct amount to disengage the clutch. (not sure how much that movement is, but it is not much).
You can look this up online for Math formulas (try math.com).. (3.1414 x (r square) x lenght) = .441 cube inches. That is the amount of fluid that the master will push out with one inch of travel.
It will take that amount of fluid volume to move the clutch/slave the correct amount to disengage the clutch. (not sure how much that movement is, but it is not much).
Ah, I get where you're coming from - I never really thought of it as a matter of volume.
Seems like, in essence, you could use any MC as long as the bore size is the same as stock bore size, and the stroke was greater than or equal to the stock stroke (or the bore could be larger/smaller as long as the volume of fluid meets or exceeds stock values).
My only other concern would be ... what happens if you *do* have more stroke than stock - will you damage the slave cylinder by pushing that add'l volume of fluid into it? Or would the pedal just firm up and bottom out?
Seems like, in essence, you could use any MC as long as the bore size is the same as stock bore size, and the stroke was greater than or equal to the stock stroke (or the bore could be larger/smaller as long as the volume of fluid meets or exceeds stock values).
My only other concern would be ... what happens if you *do* have more stroke than stock - will you damage the slave cylinder by pushing that add'l volume of fluid into it? Or would the pedal just firm up and bottom out?
Yup.. your catching on!.. who said you can teach a old (or newbie) dog new trick (kidding 
)
But you can get a master with longer stroke as long as the bore is small (or other way around), but pushes the same volume... (that is where the pedal pressure question come into play).
On the last question.. it would be a bad thing.. on my 84 z28.. the pivot ball backed out once (my bad, didn't tq it down).. but the fork didn't have the travel after the pivot ball moved out.. and it got locked against the bell housing/flywheel. I then pushed the pedal down harder.. (not thinking there).. and bam!.. the seal on the slave blow out ! Same thing would happen if you over traveled the slave.
You can control it with a travel stop on the pedal (good idea to have one anyway).
)But you can get a master with longer stroke as long as the bore is small (or other way around), but pushes the same volume... (that is where the pedal pressure question come into play).
On the last question.. it would be a bad thing.. on my 84 z28.. the pivot ball backed out once (my bad, didn't tq it down).. but the fork didn't have the travel after the pivot ball moved out.. and it got locked against the bell housing/flywheel. I then pushed the pedal down harder.. (not thinking there).. and bam!.. the seal on the slave blow out ! Same thing would happen if you over traveled the slave.
You can control it with a travel stop on the pedal (good idea to have one anyway).
Ok, now I just need to figure out the damned formula for determining the volume I assume it's just standard volume - which you listed, I think....
Ah, got it! Took me looking at a calculator over at fbody.com, but I got it figured out.
I can calculate the volume by using this formula: ((BORE/2)² x 3.14) x STROKE = VOLUME
So, basically....for the Wilwood cylinders (using Summit P/N's)...
Stock master cyl = 0.75 bore/1.0 stroke = 0.4417ci = 0.00723816617 liters
WIL-260-1304 = 0.750 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.6185ci = 0.0101353991 liters
WIL-260-2636 = 0.625 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.4295ci = 0.00703824399 liters
WIL-260-6579 = 0.700 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.5388ci = 0.00882935008 liters
Looks like the best option is doing 0.700 bore/1.4 stroke and using a pedal stop to limit travel to approximately 1-1/8" (if i want to stay a little under volume, versus moving to 1-1/6" and being 5 thousandths of a cubic inch). I really prefer the look of the Wilwood units over Tilton and simlar plastic units.
Good thing I figured this out - I'm headed to the Summit superstore in McDonough in about 2 hours
EDIT: Added output volume increments (in ci and liters). I forget the formula to convert cubic inches to liters, but Google will do it for you. It's such an infinitesimal amount of liters that I don't understand how .0001 liters could really affect the master cylinder.
I assume it's just standard volume - which you listed, I think....Ah, got it! Took me looking at a calculator over at fbody.com, but I got it figured out.
I can calculate the volume by using this formula: ((BORE/2)² x 3.14) x STROKE = VOLUME
So, basically....for the Wilwood cylinders (using Summit P/N's)...
Stock master cyl = 0.75 bore/1.0 stroke = 0.4417ci = 0.00723816617 liters
WIL-260-1304 = 0.750 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.6185ci = 0.0101353991 liters
WIL-260-2636 = 0.625 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.4295ci = 0.00703824399 liters
WIL-260-6579 = 0.700 bore/1.4 stroke = 0.5388ci = 0.00882935008 liters
Looks like the best option is doing 0.700 bore/1.4 stroke and using a pedal stop to limit travel to approximately 1-1/8" (if i want to stay a little under volume, versus moving to 1-1/6" and being 5 thousandths of a cubic inch). I really prefer the look of the Wilwood units over Tilton and simlar plastic units.
Good thing I figured this out - I'm headed to the Summit superstore in McDonough in about 2 hours
EDIT: Added output volume increments (in ci and liters). I forget the formula to convert cubic inches to liters, but Google will do it for you. It's such an infinitesimal amount of liters that I don't understand how .0001 liters could really affect the master cylinder.
Last edited by shifty`; Jan 22, 2008 at 04:56 PM.
The smaller the bore, the further you will have to push the pedal and the softer it will feel.
Also the pedal ratio comes into play here as well. If your ratio is 5:1 and you increase the stroke of the master by .4" then you will have to move the pedal 2" further than before.
It all depends on what feel you are after and how far you want to push the pedal.
Also the pedal ratio comes into play here as well. If your ratio is 5:1 and you increase the stroke of the master by .4" then you will have to move the pedal 2" further than before.
It all depends on what feel you are after and how far you want to push the pedal.
Originally Posted by Rodder
McDonough? Didn't notice you were in ATL. Howdy from North Fulton!
I live roughly 5 blocks southeast of the Zoo.
Originally Posted by 70 LS1
The smaller the bore, the further you will have to push the pedal and the softer it will feel.
Also the pedal ratio comes into play here as well. If your ratio is 5:1 and you increase the stroke of the master by .4" then you will have to move the pedal 2" further than before.
It all depends on what feel you are after and how far you want to push the pedal.
Also the pedal ratio comes into play here as well. If your ratio is 5:1 and you increase the stroke of the master by .4" then you will have to move the pedal 2" further than before.
It all depends on what feel you are after and how far you want to push the pedal.
I ended up picking up a Wilwood MC today - 0.700" bore with 1.4" stroke. Hoping I won't need to go back and swap it out
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 3,148
Likes: 12
From: Downers Grove, IL
You can measure your pedal ratio by comparing how far the pedal moves compared to how far it would push the master cylinder.
IE: If your pedal moves 4" and that will depress the master 1" it would be a 4:1 ratio. If your pedal moved 6" and that depressed the master 6" it would be a 6:1 ratio.
IE: If your pedal moves 4" and that will depress the master 1" it would be a 4:1 ratio. If your pedal moved 6" and that depressed the master 6" it would be a 6:1 ratio.
ah, yeah, i was looking at it a bit differently. my pedal ratio is probably ~ 2.5:1, because overall travel at the base is approximately (seriously) 13.75", while the actual travel where the MC will bolt up is around 5.5
lots of numbers flying around in this post. maybe one day it'll all make sense
lots of numbers flying around in this post. maybe one day it'll all make sense
How far down it the master connected on the pedal?
You change the ratio by moving the mounting location. If it has to be in a different location, you can drill a new location hole or weld some plates on to the pedal and drill a different location (or multi locations).
I mounted up the rod to a plate, then used a vise grip to hold it on the pedal while I check the ratio and travel to ensure that nothing was hitting. After all was good, I just welded the plate to the pedal. (Tip, suggest taking the pedal out of the car for the welding part)
You change the ratio by moving the mounting location. If it has to be in a different location, you can drill a new location hole or weld some plates on to the pedal and drill a different location (or multi locations).
I mounted up the rod to a plate, then used a vise grip to hold it on the pedal while I check the ratio and travel to ensure that nothing was hitting. After all was good, I just welded the plate to the pedal. (Tip, suggest taking the pedal out of the car for the welding part)
It's connected nearly at the very top of the pedal to create the least amount of travel (hence the 5.5" instead of a full ~14" travel). I think what I'll do is just bump-stop the pedal on both ends to reduce my travel forward and backward.
I have bare metal floors, so welding inside may not be a problem I believe my pedals have studs welded in place to keep the pedals in (came from factory like this).
Honestly, I would love to find more modern replacement pedals. Maybe further down the road.
I have bare metal floors, so welding inside may not be a problem
I believe my pedals have studs welded in place to keep the pedals in (came from factory like this).Honestly, I would love to find more modern replacement pedals. Maybe further down the road.