Gen3Benz

iTrader: (4)

Didn't see the refrence to the booster setup, hydroboost is a better idea anyways.

Found a diagram of the fan motor.
Speed is controled by the "variable control relay module" VCRM....ford is gay with acronyms.
As for the third wire is says "wire teriminates into harness" Doesn't say if it's black or not.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

Good find. Looks like the PCM is using a variable speed control of some sort. I've been reading about the Delta Controls and Spal PWM units. I don't understand what pulse width control is exactly. I do know it works, I bought one of the DC Control units for my LT1 280Z, it is neat the way it starts slow and runs the fan at lower speeds or only as needed. It looks like the Spal PWM unit is only rated at 30 amps, so it may be dicey using this with a Mark 8 fan that draws 100A on startup and over 30 to run on high.

I'd say the third fan terminal was used on a prior or later setup. Apparently the Taurus fans are all 2 speed, apply +12V to one terminal= low, and to the other= high. Oh well, back to the wiring drawing board.

The DC Controls website is not what it used to be, it only has an email link and says now serving three websites. I belong to two of them, and on one of the forums someone said apparently the owner is only accepting work via e-mail.

On a side note while looking at radiator sizes, I found the early 90's Chevy Van radiator I used in the 280Z/Supra/RX7 is virtually the same size as the 525 unit:
525: Core 17x20.5 + 4.125 for the tanks
540: Core 17x22.5 + 5.25 for the tanks
Chevy Van: Core: 17x20.75 + 4.75 for the tanks

I would not mind using another van radiator, but would like to keep the temp and coolant level functions from the BMW unit. I think I will stick with the 525 unit and see how it works, it is easy to remove & replace plus it has the right size lower hose outlet.

Schitzo

iTrader: (6)

PWM is pulse width modulation. Just think of playing with a light switch turning it on and off. If you are super human fast, you can turn the switch on and off so fast that the bulb appears to be on constantly. if you vary the period between on and off, then you change the brightness without necessary changing the power going to the bulb.

later BMWs use PWM for alot of things from a/c compressors control, fans control, throttle control etc. PWM is also used alot in robotics to control motors for smooth movement.

I think the spal PWM unit adjusts the 'on and off' time aka duty cycle depending on coolant temp thus the fan runs at different speeds depending on temp instead of having just a high speed or low speed.

rao

iTrader: (18)

If you can get the DC controls unit do it

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

Thanks for the electronics lesson Schitzo . I'm sure I can find another DC Control unit if I look hard enough.

I got my C5 accessory bracket from Dal Slabaugh today, along with some other goodies. Here are a couple of pics of the BMW alternator in place on the C5 bracket:




It should line up w/ the C5 pulley OK since it is closer to the block than the truck pulley currently in place. I will need to fab a lower bracket for the alternator if I go this route. Looks like it will be out to the side pretty far. The ultimate call on this one will be once I get the custom headers. If there is too much conflict, I will have to look at the F-body accessory setup. I have not looked at mounting the PS pump yet.

I have an old LSx header flange from the Supra project, and tried to install it on one of my new (to me) 317 heads to test the fit. I found out the heads had two broken off exhaust bolts in them, one in each head . I was able to get one of the bolts out & the threads are OK. On the other head, it was broken off below the head & I broke my screw extractor trying to remove it (pic below). I guess this is what you get w/ buying used parts sometimes. Since this damage was not disclosed, I'm going to ask the seller to refund half my money for the head I can't use.

EDIT- NOT Doing the right thing
The seller, 04gtoBMXracer, is a stand up member. He agreed w/o any hassle to refund half the money for the bad head. This forum is head & shoulders & the rest of the torso above the RX7 one I belong to.

EDIT #2
The above rating is on hold. As of 10-12, I don't have my money. I'll update here once this is taken care of.

EDIT #3 NOT doing the right thing
I filed a Paypal complaint as since I have no refund for this. The seller said on 9-28 he would have the money in "6-8 days" and it had been over 2 weeks. Paypal denied the claim since they do assure the "quality" of items purchased. 04gtoBMXracer is a crooked seller, and I have posted this trade in the negative deal section. While he may have been initially unaware of the problem, he did nothing about fixing it when it was brought to his attention. He is no better than a scammer in my book.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

I did some reading on the variable control relay module on a Lincoln Mark 8 forum. If it does the same thing as a variable speed control and can be had for $30, I'm all for it.

EDIT
Cleaning up the thread, the Lincoln fan controller cannot be made to work in this application.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

I picked up some fan info on a Corvette Forum thread:
Summary of relevant info-
The one I bought last year was only one speed and it was a 98 mark 8 fan. It has 3 terminals but only 2 make the fan run.

All the checking that I've done indicates that all Mark VIII fans were single speed. Mine has three terminals but I think all did. All three terminals had a wire attached but one of the wires terminated in the harness, per the wiring schematics we looked at. Mine will run at high speed with 12 volts applied to the two hot terminals, either one at a time or both together. The fan draws the same amps either way. A member on the forum (don't remember his name, Baskin I think) that has done a lot of work with the Mark VIII fan and also builds a controller has indicated that the true Mark VIII fan has a white plug, and the thunderbird fan has a black plug, at least I think it was him that informed us of this.

Apparently the Mark VIII fan has three wires originating from the plug. Two are positive leads and one is a ground. There is a positive center BLACK lead and a positive BLUE lead. When used in the stock application, the positive black lead actuates the fan based on engine temperature, and the blue wire actuates the fan when the a/c is turned on.

3 Leads; 2 are positive (+) leads and 1 is a ground lead.
Lead functions in stock application:
-BLACK Outboard black lead is a GROUND.
+BLACK Center lead is a POSITIVE lead...actuates fan on engine temp.
+BLUE Outboard lead is a POSITIVE lead..actuates fan w/ aircon.

The stock '95 Mark VIII that gave up my fan had the center wire taped off...inside the factory tape and wire loom.

I've test run mine with each power wire hooked up separately and together. The fan speed never changed.

Mark Vlll (part) #'s
1993-96 #F3LY8C607A low speed 1100RPM high speed 1850
1997 #F7LZ8C607AB
1998 #F8LZ8C607AA low speed for 97/98 1800RPM high speed 2225
* all above look the same

My fan is F8LH 8C607 AA...same as mentioned in the article below. I bought it new, so I'm suspecting that it all works right. It is a 19" diameter fan and has a 3-terminal male connector. I tested the fan and it runs when the two outermost connectors are used. The center terminal doesn't appear to do anything.

My center terminal will run the fan...it just doesn't change the speed or anything.

Following discussion with Rastadr, who owns a Mark VIII fan, and inspection of my new Mark VIII fan, it appears that the 1998 Mark VIII fan, part numbers RF-64 and/or F8LH-8C607-AA, only has leads connected to the 2 outermost male terminals.

I opened up the inspection cover and it is readily apparent that the center terminal, which extends into the area beneath the inspection cover, is not hooked up to anything. It's just sitting there, brand new, with no leads attached.

After surfing for awhile it seems that the 98 fan was a variable speed fan controlled by the Lincoln powertrain system. SO, I guess I'm ok, I can either run it from the ECM (it'll run at full speed each time it's started) or I can buy one of them variable speed controllers.

I'm pretty sure it's variable-speed controlled from a separate box. If you hook it straight to power, it just runs on high.

(baskin1, referenced abbove)
I believe that's correct, from what I've read (from the internet, so take it with a grain of salt), it had two binary bits, which would have provided three speeds. On the center terminal, my guess is that it was originally intended for monitoring. It would have been pretty useful, in that the voltage could be measured directly at the fan after all of the connections were fed through but, since the input to the feed wire would be known, the output voltage of the feed wire, along with the known resistance of the feed wire could also be used to monitor the current.

So in summary, there are at least two wiring variations. The one like Gen3Benz has where the center terminal does nothing, and the one like I have where the center terminal does the same as the outer one- high speed only. There is a possible third variation if you look at the part numbers listed, since they are described as having low and high RPM numbers.

I found a place that sells complete wiring diagrams for $12, so I took the plunge and ordered one for a '95. Once I get it I will evaluate if there is any way to use the $20~30 control module with this fan.

Gen3Benz

iTrader: (4)

I have alldata online at work, any wiring diagrams for any car.



operation of relay box

"A Variable Control Relay Module (VCRM) is used to control engine cooling fan operation speed and A/C clutch operation in addition to other non-A/C functions. The VCRM will increase and decrease fan speed as necessary, depending on refrigerant system high side pressure. It also can turn the A/C clutch circuit OFF if high side pressure exceeds 425 psi. It will stop fan control operation at vehicle speeds in excess of approximately 45 mph. Fan operation will resume when vehicle speed drops approximately 42 mph. One exception is when high side pressure is above 300 psi. Fan control will not shut off when high side pressure is above 300 psi. In event of an high side pressure sensor failure, fan control will continue to operate."

I dont want any ford relay box on my car.
Couldn't you just run a big inline resistor for low speed and straight power for high speed?

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

EDIT
Cleaning up the thread, the Lincoln fan controller cannot be made to work in this application.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

Like any swap, about right now I'm running tight on funds. Having to buy another head while waiting on a refund is never fun. C5 alternators are really expensive! PS pumps are more reasonable. I have a BMW alternator & PS pump, along with a C5 accessory bracket. I also have a sawzall! Since I had already test-fitted the alternator and it looks like it will line up using one existing hole and an adapter bracket, I thought I would give the PS pump a go.

Turns out the bolt spacing on the C5 pump and the BMW pump is like .125" different , with the C5 being the wider of the two. I have a saying in doing swaps that it is always the .125" that gets you. Proven yet again. Both use 8mm bolts. The main hangup is the "extra" aluminum at the bottom of the C5 bracket. With some cutting & grinding, I soon had it ready to go.

Even if the bolt holes did line up OK, it would be too close to the motor for the belt to line up. Then I had a great idea , all I need is a simple aluminum spacer block to:
1) Space the pump to the correct position, and
2) Allow the pump to bolt to or through the spacer to the C5 bracket.

The pump has a rear bracket that can be tied into the block for additonal support.

Another good thing is in this position, the pump will have about the same orientation as on the BMW motor- pressure outlet on top, return on side. I looked at the banjo fittings & they appear to be 14mm on the pressure side & 16mm on the return side.

Everything will need to be in place before I work on the spacer block.

Here are some pics from today:








I'll figure out belt routing when everything is attached. I may space out the AC compressor & use a 6 rib pulley on it.

It just occured to me that this project is a little like that old TV commercial where two guys are walking towards each other. One has peanut butter and the other a chocolate bar. They run into each other and after
"Hey you got peanut butter on my chocolate bar / chocolate in my peanut butter*", a new candy was born.

*Substitute 'Lincoln fan in my BMW / BMW alternator & PS pump on my Chevy motor / Chevy motor & trans in my BMW' as needed. Maybe something else great will be born.

Mia

iTrader: (8)

nice build, subscribing to see your progress

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

I used a device called a Tachometer Signal Divider or TSD made by Baker Electronix on the Supra to convert the Gen 3 V8 tach output to the Toyota 6 cylinder tach.
EDIT- I have figured out how to correct the tach output using my HP Tuners software and won't be using this device. I'll leave the info up in case someone else needs it. The tach resolution setting are changed from 6/6 to 4/4 for the 6 cylinder tach.

I'm working on my Summit "wish lists" for fuel and oil lines. I like to bulk order from them to avoid multiple "free" shipping non-free handling fees*. I found a place in Sarasota FL called BAT Inc that sells metric banjo and other obscure fittings, one of which was used to adapt the Gen 3 PS pump to the Supra PS box. I'm making up a list for this place as well.

* Good thing Ilike to shop there, because I pricematched a set of headers for the RX7. It took like 3 days and then the sales guy tried to tack on the "handling" fee, which made it $10 more. I bought the headers from the first place.

rao

iTrader: (18)

Any competent mail order tune can correct the tach signal in the PCM. You can do it yourself if you have the tuning software.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

As the saying goes "You learn something new everyday." I have HP Tuners for the 1998 PCM, but am far from being adept at it. This is good info to know in the event I get the urge to do another swap... my kid doesn't like my wagon (like I would ever let anyone else drive it ) & wants a 10 year old 4 door E Class Mercedes. Seeing as how "Gen3Benz" has replied here...

Got the parts lists done for the fuel, oil, clutch, and PS. Need to get a few parts in hand to see what the threads are on the clutch MC and the Mustang Hydroboost.

I'm EDIT- not replacing the 5/16 fuel supply lline w/ 3/8. I'm adding a 255 LPH in tank pump, along with the above Moroso oil pan, and a bunch of other fittings/hoses/parts to the tune of like $1300.

My T56 ships today! Should have it within a week.

I have a line on a large case LSD diff out of a 1989 BMW 750i and should know something on this within a few days.

I downloaded some year-specific wiring diagrams for the car. These are a lot easier to read than the shop manual ones since they for the most part do not have the extra years/models in them and are well organized.

Still lots of organizing, planning, and buying yet to do.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

I'm getting a daily delivery of goodies.

Fan and engine wiring
I got a pigtail for the MK 8 fan, Motorcraft PN WPT-168 or F**d PN 1USZ-14S411-ADA from Rock Auto, along with a 2 bar GM MAP sensor. The fan pigtail wires look to be about 12 gauge, and the part comes with crimp connectors and some heat shrink tubing.

BMW OEM stuff
The BMW parts place delivered the first round of stuff, mostly shifter and clutch parts. I needed to determine the thread size on the clutch MC, so I was glad it was in the first shipment. It has a concave (pushed inwards) end, and I had the 10mm x 1.5 convex (sticks outwards) fitting from the F-car slave cylinder. It would not thread in, but the diameter (10mm) is right. Looked to be a finer thread pitch, so I tried some of the 10 x 1.0 brake lines (see below) and they threaded all the way in.

Head/cam stuff
I heard some Thunder, so after Racing outside I found I had received a set of MLS head and other cam swap gaskets, ARP head, cam, flywheel, and retainer bolts along with some assembly lube & thread sealer.

I don't think I mentioned yet that I have the 02+ Z06 cam from Corvette Forum as well as some LS6 springs and shorter 7.425" pushrods from this forum.

Summit says I will have 3/4 of my parts order tomorrow. I hope this includes the oil pan so I can get an idea how it will fit.

My T56 was not picked up yesterday as arranged over a week in advance with the shipping company, but apparently they picked it up today.

I still need to find a low cost stock 317 head before I can put everything back together.

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

The new oil pan arrived the same day as the cold & flu season. Took two of these , fortunately none of this . It sucks not having the energy to get anything done.

Today I mustered up some energy & did some more test fitting. I'm at a standstill until I get another 317 head anyway. I like the Moroso oil pan, it is very compact. I don't think it will tuck in exactly where I want it to be since the T56 bellhousing will need some room & this will push the motor forward.

EDIT- A pschyic moment. This pan won't let the motor come forward far enough for the bellhousing to clear. Cleaning up the thread, deleting useless info. Remianing pics/data deleted.

Large case diff install
BMW makes three basic sizes of differentials:
Small case, usually found in 4 cylinder models;
Medium case, usually found in 6 cylinder and small V8 models; and
Large case, usually found in larger V8 and V12 models.

I have also figured out what I need to do so as to run the large case differential from a V12 BMW and larger axles. These are rated at close to 600 ft-pounds of torque, and available in a 3.64:1 ratio, which should work well for my application. An aftermarket supply/modification firm rates my stock 4.10:1 unit at 360 ft-pounds, so I want to play it safe.

The trick to doing this is to find a diff from an "E32" 7-series BMW. After days of research I found the only real candidate was the 750, or V-12 model, model years 88-94. The 740/540 are V8 models, but their final drive is like 2.81~2.93, so they are not well suited for a performance application. The diff will usually run about $300.

The diff will bolt in to an E34 car such as mine. You then have to use axles from a select few models of BMWs. The most common is a 1995 540 with automatic trans. I found these as cheap as $25 each used. The large case axle output shafts are 6mm larger in diameter than the 525 models.

The final catch is the outboard flange where the axles bolt to the trailing arm. The 525 and similar models used a small diameter flange, whereas the 735/540/740/750 used a large diameter flange. Since no JY sells just the flanges (they are listed at about $100 from a BMW parts vendor, with no guarantee of availability), I looked into getting used trailing arms from one of these cars. I found several JYs had these for around $40 each.

The parts total will be less than $500, which is not too bad when you consider BMW lists a reman diff for over $2K!

I won't get into the diff swap, since there are shop manuals that will cover that. The axle outboard flange swap is fairly easy, jack the car, remove the rear wheel, undo the 6 allen head bolts and pop the axle loose. You can also do the inboard side at this time and pull the complete axle since you won't be re-using the axles.

The first roadblock here is the large nut holding the flange in place.


I did not have a large enough socket, my largest w/o going over was 1.25", so I estimate this is probably a 35~36mm socket.

EDIT
It is a 36mm thinwall socket. I had to buy a set of 3/4 drive sockets & grind down the outer edge.

Once this nut is off, you can remove the washer under it & use a puller (if needed) to remove the flange. Assembly is the reverse of the removal! All the other parts in this hub such as the bearing and stub shaft are the same part numbers according to BMW online parts, so all you need to do is swap the flange and use the correct axles.

I'll have some more pics of this as I make progress & recover.

Schitzo

iTrader: (6)

great progress. Amazing how well the GTO mounts work on the BMW subframe. Do you have pics of the Clutch master fittings? Thanks

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

No parts yet, I'm going to do a Pegasus/BAT Inc. order to get the remainder of the specialty fitings for the clutch and PS setup as soon as I get the Mustang brake parts in & can determine what thread the MC uses.

I've got to do some followup on parts since some of them are overdue since payment. Not everyone ships as fast as Summit and a select few members here .

Here is kind of how things have/have not worked out so far:


I've left quite a bit out, but this hits the highlights.

Somedays it is or worse yet . Others are .

dmenheere

Another gentleman has swapped the front suspension from an e39 5-series into his e34 to have more room for the V8 sump and gain rack and pinion steering. Only the 6 cylinder e39s used the front rack arrangement. I will try and link a schematic below





I don't know what is involved in the suspension swap.

cheers,

Dave Menheere

V8 Supra Builder

iTrader: (37)

Seems like a good idea and would help since the existing box is so big. I don't want to tackle something of that scale at this point unless I have to. I'm having a hard time getting a common 317 head, and the LSD parts are not exactly falling off trees.

I've contacted all but one of my lagging part suppliers, so I'm still on track.

The Hydro boost is here! I'd never seen late UPS deliveries until I moved here- this one was like 8:30 PM.

The unit is off a '97 Cobra. Here are some pics:






The fittings at the pipe ends are 2 16mm female and one 16mm male. The pipes will probably be in the way, so I removed them and found the fittings on the unit were 1x 18mm male o-ring, 1x 16mm male o-ring, and an 8mm banjo/block o-ring (weird fitting, so I will probably keep it and use the 16mm end on the pipe).

On the master cylinder outlets the threads appeared to be 12mm since my 10mm lines went in w/o any resistance. They are also "bubble flare" lines like the BMW has.

Best bet is to pick up some Russell metric PS adapters for the high pressure & return lines, and some 12mm>10MM adapters when I do my Pegasus order.

EDIT/UPDATE 10-23-07
The 12mm>10mm fittings at the master cylinder are Edelmann PN 267000. I got mine at a Carquest Auto Parts store. My 525 had one line from the ABS as 10mm on one end & 12mm on the other, but the other was 10mm on both ends, so I needed one reducer.

The mounting bolts to the firewall are similar in dimension, but of course just a little off to prevent me from using the same holes. Should not be too big a deal to enlarge holes as needed.

I'll have to see about wiring in the low fluid sensor since I see there is one on the Cobra cylinder.

EDIT/UPDATE- IF USING A 1997 COBRA HYDROBOOST, READ THIS!!!
The '97 Hydroboost uses some funky (ie hard to find/adapt to AN) fittings. After a lot of reading & searching, I found a place called Hydratech that is apparently the sole-source for this type of stuff. They make the small (AN2 o-ring boss size thread) return adapter in both a barb and AN6, as well as a couple of custom pieces that adapt the Cobra o-ring flare fittings to regular inverted flare, so you can use Aeromotive steel AN6 adapter fittings PN FBM 2965 (11/16-18 thread) & 2964 (5/8-18 thread).

EDIT

It is good to be on the mend from this cold. I got energetic this morning before going to church & changed the oil in my Trans Am along with some other needed maintenance & pulled it out of the garage for the first time since I moved it here in May:

/off topic

I was reading another Hydro boost thread, and the guy cut off the end of the brake rod & re-threaded it to 3/8-24. I measured the BMW clevis (the part that goes to the pedal) and found the thread was 10mm x 1.5. Since 3/8 = .375" and 10mm= .393", I figured I could do the same. Unfortunately, my metric tap & die set is not as strong as my Craftsman SAE one. I ended up doing the brake rod as 3/8-24 and then rethreading that to 10mm x 1.5:


It was a simple matter then to thread the BMW locknut & clevis into place:


This will allow for very limited adjustability, but hopefully will do the trick. I can always extend/shorten it if needed.

You can see in the second pic I re-drilled the Cobra mounting bracket to the BMW pattern. I'm going to use some 5/16 bolts here to go through the firewall.

I'm going to re-use the Cobra gasket between the unit & the firewall as the BMW one is not deep enough.

I have sold most of the stuff I don't need off the motor, and have ordered hundreds of $ of fittings, hose, and other small parts. Forum vendor Yank here also had a single 317 head FS and he is mailing it to me this week, so things will be back on track for the motor build.

My T56 is somewhere on the truck between here & Illinois, one more thing to follow up on. If all goes as planned, I am going to pick up a used BMW large case limited slip differential this week. It is from a 91 750iL and has the 3.64:1 ratio I want. I found it is cheaper to order the axles and trailing arms (for the outer axle flanges) from other JYs.