LS1 into a Cadillac Catera (56K=death)
09-20-2007, 09:00 AM
#41
Originally Posted by Hans Grüber
Dani:
That Catera done by LPE is currently the only Catera V8 conversion anywhere.
That Catera done by LPE is currently the only Catera V8 conversion anywhere.
I saw that car at a cruise in in Detroit, MI. That, or there are two swapped Cateras floating around
09-21-2007, 09:18 PM
#42
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Originally Posted by Lysander
I saw that car at a cruise in in Detroit, MI. That, or there are two swapped Cateras floating around
09-23-2007, 08:38 PM
#44
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GM Omega/Catera V8 parts If anyone is interested, we purchased many of the parts that Hans showed pictures of and have them available for sale in the US. We only have a few sets of the manifolds remaining. Most of the other components we have in larger quantities.
Email me directly if interested. I can also post pictures if people are interested in seeing them (most of the parts Hans already did a good job covering).
We purchased these parts some time after we did our first Catera V8 conversion (the one mentioned a couple of times in this thread) thinking we might want to offer the conversion as a package (and then decided not to do so). I actually still own a 2000 Catera that we were going to use as the test case for doing the conversion using these parts.
Jason Haines
^^^
Front: 334mm x 32mm
Rear: 308mm x 22mm
Email me directly if interested. I can also post pictures if people are interested in seeing them (most of the parts Hans already did a good job covering).
We purchased these parts some time after we did our first Catera V8 conversion (the one mentioned a couple of times in this thread) thinking we might want to offer the conversion as a package (and then decided not to do so). I actually still own a 2000 Catera that we were going to use as the test case for doing the conversion using these parts.
Jason Haines
Originally Posted by Hans Grüber
^^^
Front: 334mm x 32mm
Rear: 308mm x 22mm
09-25-2007, 11:18 AM
#45
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Wiring Ya um, I got a question for you Hans or anybody that can help! With the wiring, would I just take the ECU and wiring harness from a corvette and lengthen and modify as needed? How much modification would have to be done? Im not big on keeping all my my options in the vehicle however it would be nice as its fully loaded. But I dont plan on using the stock seat heaters. I want to get aftermarket heated and cooled seat insides and get my seats re-apolstered. This project seems to be pretty much streight forward with little modification. Anyway let me know on the wiring part and how far you are with the wiring Hans. Thank you everybody!
09-25-2007, 11:33 AM
#46
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Wiring harness and ECU/PCM I would recommend getting a custom wiring harness made with the correct trunk lengths etc so you don't have to extend anything. Howell Engineering, Speartech and a couple of other companies offer custom harnesses. If you want to use a GM harness, I would start with a 1999-2002 LS1 Camaro or Firebird harness. The Corvette is electronic throttle and requires some other modules to really work properly. The F-body LS1 harness doesn't need to connect to those things and is designed for a mechanical throttle.
You could also probably use a 2004 GTO harness.
Wiring harnesses were made for this project but we have not seen them.
Hans - did you get any harnesses or have you seen them?
BTW - in GM speak the controller for this application is a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) because it controls the engine and the transmission. The Omega V8 cars were going to be 4L60E AT equipped.
Jason
You could also probably use a 2004 GTO harness.
Wiring harnesses were made for this project but we have not seen them.
Hans - did you get any harnesses or have you seen them?
BTW - in GM speak the controller for this application is a PCM (Powertrain Control Module) because it controls the engine and the transmission. The Omega V8 cars were going to be 4L60E AT equipped.
Jason
Originally Posted by Dani K
Ya um, I got a question for you Hans or anybody that can help! With the wiring, would I just take the ECU and wiring harness from a corvette and lengthen and modify as needed? How much modification would have to be done? Im not big on keeping all my my options in the vehicle however it would be nice as its fully loaded. But I dont plan on using the stock seat heaters. I want to get aftermarket heated and cooled seat insides and get my seats re-apolstered. This project seems to be pretty much streight forward with little modification. Anyway let me know on the wiring part and how far you are with the wiring Hans. Thank you everybody!
09-26-2007, 01:26 AM
#47
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Originally Posted by Dani K
Ya um, I got a question for you Hans or anybody that can help! With the wiring, would I just take the ECU and wiring harness from a corvette and lengthen and modify as needed? How much modification would have to be done? Im not big on keeping all my my options in the vehicle however it would be nice as its fully loaded. But I dont plan on using the stock seat heaters. I want to get aftermarket heated and cooled seat insides and get my seats re-apolstered. This project seems to be pretty much streight forward with little modification. Anyway let me know on the wiring part and how far you are with the wiring Hans. Thank you everybody!
Engine wiring harnesses are pretty self contained and completely separate from the body wiring harnesses.
PCMs have typically only 2 large plugs on them:
One plug is where the all of the sensors and various other electrical components on the engine plug into; TPS, MAF, knock sensors, ignition coil signals, cam position sensor etc .
This you will not have to worry about because it will be included with the engine you buy or with the custom harness you purchase.
The second plug is essentially only an output that leads to the gauge cluster; tachometer, speedometer, check engine light, oil pressure gauge etc
Now this will be the most complex aspect of the swap with regard to wiring. You will have to get a diagram that lists all of the pin outs of the particular PCM that you are using and match them up to the appropriate input on the Cateras gauge cluster.
I know that this is a bit of an oversimplification, but I think this sums it up and provides a vague idea of what is required.
Now I would like to retain a fully functional traction control system. This will be a bit more complicated.
Our cars use a Bosch 5.3 ABS/TC system. The proper name is EBTCM (Electronic Brake and Traction Control Module). If you dont care about traction control then you will not have to worry about this as the wiring is separate from the engine wiring. So you will lose TC functionality but still retain ABS functionality as ABS only needs data from the 4 wheels speed sensors.
On our cars when the EBTCM detects wheel slippage, it tells the ECM (Engine Control Module) to pull ignition timing and shut off fuel injectors; even though our cars have an electronic throttle, throttle modulation is not used when a loss of traction event is detected.
Of course this means that the ECTCM must communicate with the ECM. With the stock V6 using the Bosch ECM, communication is done through CAN (Controller Area Network), this physically consists of only 2 wires and a proprietary protocol. CAN was developed by Bosch to simplify powertrain wiring harnesses which simplifies manufacturing. If youre familiar with computer networking, think TCP/IP, IPX/SPX and patch cables. Well CAN is the automotive equivalent. CAN is also used for communication between the Bosch manufactured TCM (Transmission Control Module) and the Bosch ECM on the Catera.
The GM V8 Catera prototypes used Delphi manufactured PCMs which I am pretty certain were identical to those used on the LS1 F-body (Camaro, Firebord). Though the Camaro did use a similar Bosch EBTCM, it did not use CAN.
Lingenfelter did provide me with a new Bosch EBTCM which physically is identical to the stock Catera EBTCM including the plug type; GM however did not provided them with wiring information so Im not sure how to integrate this unit since I do not know what the pin functions.
I have learned though that the Pontiac GTO uses virtually the identical EBTCM.
Here are the pinouts compared to those of a 2004 LS1 GTO. The 2005+ GTO uses the LS2 engine with an electronic throttle and a completely different PCM. Ive not been able to locate a diagram for the EBTCM used on those yet.
Green are common, Red are different (not sure about 11):
Last edited by Hans Grüber; 09-26-2007 at 05:26 AM.
09-26-2007, 01:58 AM
#48
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Originally Posted by Jason Haines @ LPE
Wiring harnesses were made for this project but we have not seen them.
Hans - did you get any harnesses or have you seen them?
Hans - did you get any harnesses or have you seen them?
When you say that harnesses were made, do you mean made by LPE or ones supplied by GM?
I think it would be quite possible that there may be complete harnesses somewhere. When I came by the 2nd time to pick up the brake lines, I found a few hoses that we missed the first time.
If you could check into it, that would be great! It would make this swap A LOT easier.
09-26-2007, 11:25 AM
#50
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Harnesses I was told GM had harnesses made. GM built several prototype vehicles (as would be expected). Some were even brought to the US.
BTW - the 2004 GTO uses a PCM that looks a lot like the 1999-2002 Camaro Firebird PCM but has a large FLASH chip in it (same size as the 2003-2006 CK trucks). I think a version of the PCM used in the Camaros, Firebirds, etc. exists that has CAN but I don't know if the GTO uses that one or not. Even if it did, getting the correct CAN messages would be difficult.
Jason
BTW - the 2004 GTO uses a PCM that looks a lot like the 1999-2002 Camaro Firebird PCM but has a large FLASH chip in it (same size as the 2003-2006 CK trucks). I think a version of the PCM used in the Camaros, Firebirds, etc. exists that has CAN but I don't know if the GTO uses that one or not. Even if it did, getting the correct CAN messages would be difficult.
Jason
Originally Posted by Hans Grüber
The only wiring harness I received was a single short harness consisting of heavy guage wires that appear to be for the battery, alternator, starter and one other that I'm not sure of.
When you say that harnesses were made, do you mean made by LPE or ones supplied by GM?
I think it would be quite possible that there may be complete harnesses somewhere. When I came by the 2nd time to pick up the brake lines, I found a few hoses that we missed the first time.
If you could check into it, that would be great! It would make this swap A LOT easier.
When you say that harnesses were made, do you mean made by LPE or ones supplied by GM?
I think it would be quite possible that there may be complete harnesses somewhere. When I came by the 2nd time to pick up the brake lines, I found a few hoses that we missed the first time.
If you could check into it, that would be great! It would make this swap A LOT easier.
09-26-2007, 10:00 PM
#51
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More Catera V8 conversion parts pictures Here some pictures of more Catera/Omega V8 conversion parts that I thought might be of interest to people. Some of these are the same as the parts Hans posted pictures of.
09-27-2007, 08:09 PM
#52
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I have another question! Thank you Hans for the wiring and all the help so far. But my question now is will I be able to keep the steering setup I have (Cant think off the top of my head what the Catera uses for steering.) or would I have to go to rack and pinion. (I think rack and pinion) Sorry if i made no sence, ive had a few margaritas and im really busy. just needed to get my question out there. Thank you.
09-28-2007, 01:40 AM
#55
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Originally Posted by 01WS6/tamu
Can that ninety degree elbow into the throttle body for the air intake be purchased separately anywhere for a reasonable price. It looks like it will fit my v8 s10 perfectly.
http://www.edge-inc.net/images/cars/...GTO_Engine.jpg
09-29-2007, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris442
I knew that the platforms were different, but I never had seen underneath the Opel to see the similarities or differences. The rear suspension is the most similar part. The front subframe is totally different. Holden didn't even keep the A-arms, instead using radius rods. Interesting that the Opel has recirculating ball steering, while the Holdens have rack and pinion. Being familiar with the Holden, I can tell you that many of the small details look the same, little things like the hood latch. The power steering cooler you have also looks close to the one on my GTO.
I guess I was too tired when I was typing about that driveshaft, lol. I know it has two donuts. I don't know why I put it backwards in my post. Actually, I just took it out of my car a couple weeks ago and replaced it with a 1-piece 3.5" aluminum unit. There was nothing wrong with the stocker, but I got a great deal on the replacement. The only problem with the 2-piece is that it doesn't like high power and traction. I don't know about the diameter off hand, but it's small, so 2" wouldn't shock me. Now you've got me curious, so I'll have to go out in the shed and measure.
Was the diff that you have sourced from Australia? It looks very close to the GTO part, but it looks a bit narrower. Looking at the cover, it looks like it could be swapped for the Holden part at least in terms of bolting together. The fill and drain look identical, but the tag says LSD on mine. That 3.07 gear will be pretty tall if you use a T56, too. With the auto that they show in the manual, I'd imagine that gear was necessary to give the top speed the Germans wanted. All GTOs regardless of transmission have 3.46s. The manual with that gear and the speed limiter removed can reach approximately 180 mph in 5th gear. The 3.07 with a T56 would put the top end in the stratosphere, although you'd get excellent highway fuel economy. You've probably already thought this out, but the transmission from a GTO, RPO M12, would, IMHO, be best for your car as it has lower gearing than its f-body equivalent.
The only other thought I have for the alternator was that it would be closer to the frame than on the Holden due to the narrower chassis of the Opel. The accessories on my GTO are also different than the f-body parts that this Opel looks to use. I don't know if all Holdens with LS1s have used the accessories that my car has as GTOs in general are among the last Holdens on that platform.
Looks like you got the whole setup to do this, too. Between that and the manual, this ought to be about as close to a bolt in as it could possibly be.
I guess I was too tired when I was typing about that driveshaft, lol. I know it has two donuts. I don't know why I put it backwards in my post. Actually, I just took it out of my car a couple weeks ago and replaced it with a 1-piece 3.5" aluminum unit. There was nothing wrong with the stocker, but I got a great deal on the replacement. The only problem with the 2-piece is that it doesn't like high power and traction. I don't know about the diameter off hand, but it's small, so 2" wouldn't shock me. Now you've got me curious, so I'll have to go out in the shed and measure.
Was the diff that you have sourced from Australia? It looks very close to the GTO part, but it looks a bit narrower. Looking at the cover, it looks like it could be swapped for the Holden part at least in terms of bolting together. The fill and drain look identical, but the tag says LSD on mine. That 3.07 gear will be pretty tall if you use a T56, too. With the auto that they show in the manual, I'd imagine that gear was necessary to give the top speed the Germans wanted. All GTOs regardless of transmission have 3.46s. The manual with that gear and the speed limiter removed can reach approximately 180 mph in 5th gear. The 3.07 with a T56 would put the top end in the stratosphere, although you'd get excellent highway fuel economy. You've probably already thought this out, but the transmission from a GTO, RPO M12, would, IMHO, be best for your car as it has lower gearing than its f-body equivalent.
The only other thought I have for the alternator was that it would be closer to the frame than on the Holden due to the narrower chassis of the Opel. The accessories on my GTO are also different than the f-body parts that this Opel looks to use. I don't know if all Holdens with LS1s have used the accessories that my car has as GTOs in general are among the last Holdens on that platform.
Looks like you got the whole setup to do this, too. Between that and the manual, this ought to be about as close to a bolt in as it could possibly be.
10-01-2007, 11:46 AM
#58
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wow VERY cool to see the stock / oem parts that never made it to final production / launch.
damn, thats cool.
best of luck on the project, with parts like this it wont take you to long and it will look damn good under the hood, that is priceless man, what a way to build a car like this. I hope one of you guys can get rolling on this project soon, but as always these projects do take a while longer than expected. I love the catera's look and always was sad it never came with a big beefy v8 under the hood... with a fresh LS1 and a T56 it would be a badass sumbeyotch!
damn, thats cool.
best of luck on the project, with parts like this it wont take you to long and it will look damn good under the hood, that is priceless man, what a way to build a car like this. I hope one of you guys can get rolling on this project soon, but as always these projects do take a while longer than expected. I love the catera's look and always was sad it never came with a big beefy v8 under the hood... with a fresh LS1 and a T56 it would be a badass sumbeyotch!
10-16-2007, 08:13 AM
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Nice info I have a super clean 98 catera and would love to put an LS1 in it i heard that lingenfelter may have some info on parts and a possible kit as i read in an old post.
Question how do I get started on this and what can it cost after i have the engine and 6 speed i can get one for a good deal out of a wrecked car but put putting it in is beyond my garage. lingenfelter would have a lot of customers if a kit was made
: Any light on the subject would help thanks everyone
Question how do I get started on this and what can it cost after i have the engine and 6 speed i can get one for a good deal out of a wrecked car but put putting it in is beyond my garage. lingenfelter would have a lot of customers if a kit was made
: Any light on the subject would help thanks everyone
10-17-2007, 10:28 PM
#60
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Catera swap kit Given the cost of building a vehicle up, fabricating the missing pieces, creating instructions for the installation and providing technical support of the conversion, we did not feel that a cost effective kit could be made for us to sell out the door. That is why we are getting rid of the parts. The existance of used GTOs and the CTS-Vs also makes it harder for us to offer the conversion ourselves and have a good market for it (given our cost of labor).
Jason
Jason
Nice info I have a super clean 98 catera and would love to put an LS1 in it i heard that lingenfelter may have some info on parts and a possible kit as i read in an old post.
Question how do I get started on this and what can it cost after i have the engine and 6 speed i can get one for a good deal out of a wrecked car but put putting it in is beyond my garage. lingenfelter would have a lot of customers if a kit was made: Any light on the subject would help thanks everyone
Question how do I get started on this and what can it cost after i have the engine and 6 speed i can get one for a good deal out of a wrecked car but put putting it in is beyond my garage. lingenfelter would have a lot of customers if a kit was made
: Any light on the subject would help thanks everyone