6L80/6L90 into 68 Camaro does go....
10-19-2008, 06:03 PM
#81
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11-20-2008, 03:27 PM
#82
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LSX Instrumentation & 6L80 6L90 too Thought a few readers may be interested in some more detail in the instrumentation used on this conversion.
In an earlier post I posted some shots of the Dashdaq II which is sort of a "super" Dashhawk, in fact a super anything with how much power it has.
In the last week I got to the point of adding in the TUTD controls to support eventual paddle shifting. The trans had been restricted to a truck calibration intially which provided no manual control. The auto shifting was excellent, but there are times when you need be in control
.
The setup uses standard GM based controls, but I wanted to have some insight as I went, what was going on and whether the switches were working correctly, whether the trans was changing modes, and thought I would try the Dashdaq out to see how deep it went on transmission parameters.
Anyway, some pics:
First shot - TRGR - shows on the top right the gear selector is in the drive position. Top left shows 3rd gear, which is the default selected gear with the engine off (and with engine running if the trans controller dies). In the middle column are 2 x TUDR readouts showing "False". These two are the TUTD switches. The top one is Tap Up, the lower one Tap Down. The other windows shown are TFTR - Trans Fluid Temp (degrees C - it does F too, it is US made
), SHTR - Shift timing, VSS - speedo, TRTR - convertor lockup factor. TBPR shows the current shift pattern. In this case the default base pattern - normal auto shifting.
The second pic shows the lower TUDR readout now "true". I had pushed and held the Tap Down switch. Tap down input working!
The third pic shows the gear selector physically moved into the second drive position - referred to as Drive 4. TPBR is now Switch B. This is the "Driver Shift Control" mode selected by moving the shifter a notch. That's good because it confirms we have changed modes and the trans is prepared to go into TUTD manual shifting.
4th pic shows the top TUDR reading now as "True". Confirming the Tap Up switch is working - switch is pressed and held. Also TBPR has now changed to "Tap Up/Down" confirming that the touch of the TUTD switch has told the trans we are now manual shifting and it changes into TUTD mode, the second part of Driver Shift Control - DSC.
On the road it all works excellent. In regular Drive mode, it shifts quickly and smoothly. One click back on the shifter and it is ready for DSC/TUTD. Hit one of the TUTD controls and the trans switches into TUTD mode and it shifts down or up a gear from where it was.
Click a tap up or tap down button and it shifts up or down as commanded and the gear is read out in SHPR. (apologies for the default 4 letter lables. Had not got around to customising them to what they should be - like "Gear".)
The really impressive part is the downshift rev matching. For example tapping down two gears is almost seamless as the ECM blips the throttle up to match the rpm required, very similar to a BMW SMG setup.
At present the TUTD buttons are on the dash, just need to get paddles onto the wheel and setup for hands on manual shifting vs reaching for buttons. They prove the concept works well though!
I didnt get a pic, but there is another aspect the Dashdaq has, of many, and that is the ability to graph at least 8 parameters as you drive and optionally log them. What I did next was to set the graph screen up to readout and graph "Gear", torque management timing retard, knock retard, speed, total timing, throttle position.
What this showed was one aspect how the A6 achieves very smooth shifting, and that is as the shift occurs, considerable timing is pulled out to soften the shift, but still allow it to be quick. Having seen shift times as low as 80 to 100ms, it shifts quick under the right circumstances.
Tuned and running on E85 ethanol which the GM ECM supports seems to give zero knock retard and excellent throttle response out of the box.
More pics soon of the underside of the installation. Just have not had time to get it on a hoist.
Cheers.
In an earlier post I posted some shots of the Dashdaq II which is sort of a "super" Dashhawk, in fact a super anything with how much power it has.
In the last week I got to the point of adding in the TUTD controls to support eventual paddle shifting. The trans had been restricted to a truck calibration intially which provided no manual control. The auto shifting was excellent, but there are times when you need be in control
.The setup uses standard GM based controls, but I wanted to have some insight as I went, what was going on and whether the switches were working correctly, whether the trans was changing modes, and thought I would try the Dashdaq out to see how deep it went on transmission parameters.
Anyway, some pics:
First shot - TRGR - shows on the top right the gear selector is in the drive position. Top left shows 3rd gear, which is the default selected gear with the engine off (and with engine running if the trans controller dies). In the middle column are 2 x TUDR readouts showing "False". These two are the TUTD switches. The top one is Tap Up, the lower one Tap Down. The other windows shown are TFTR - Trans Fluid Temp (degrees C - it does F too, it is US made
), SHTR - Shift timing, VSS - speedo, TRTR - convertor lockup factor. TBPR shows the current shift pattern. In this case the default base pattern - normal auto shifting.
The second pic shows the lower TUDR readout now "true". I had pushed and held the Tap Down switch. Tap down input working!
The third pic shows the gear selector physically moved into the second drive position - referred to as Drive 4. TPBR is now Switch B. This is the "Driver Shift Control" mode selected by moving the shifter a notch. That's good because it confirms we have changed modes and the trans is prepared to go into TUTD manual shifting.
4th pic shows the top TUDR reading now as "True". Confirming the Tap Up switch is working - switch is pressed and held. Also TBPR has now changed to "Tap Up/Down" confirming that the touch of the TUTD switch has told the trans we are now manual shifting and it changes into TUTD mode, the second part of Driver Shift Control - DSC.
On the road it all works excellent. In regular Drive mode, it shifts quickly and smoothly. One click back on the shifter and it is ready for DSC/TUTD. Hit one of the TUTD controls and the trans switches into TUTD mode and it shifts down or up a gear from where it was.
Click a tap up or tap down button and it shifts up or down as commanded and the gear is read out in SHPR. (apologies for the default 4 letter lables. Had not got around to customising them to what they should be - like "Gear".)
The really impressive part is the downshift rev matching. For example tapping down two gears is almost seamless as the ECM blips the throttle up to match the rpm required, very similar to a BMW SMG setup.
At present the TUTD buttons are on the dash, just need to get paddles onto the wheel and setup for hands on manual shifting vs reaching for buttons. They prove the concept works well though!
I didnt get a pic, but there is another aspect the Dashdaq has, of many, and that is the ability to graph at least 8 parameters as you drive and optionally log them. What I did next was to set the graph screen up to readout and graph "Gear", torque management timing retard, knock retard, speed, total timing, throttle position.
What this showed was one aspect how the A6 achieves very smooth shifting, and that is as the shift occurs, considerable timing is pulled out to soften the shift, but still allow it to be quick. Having seen shift times as low as 80 to 100ms, it shifts quick under the right circumstances.
Tuned and running on E85 ethanol which the GM ECM supports seems to give zero knock retard and excellent throttle response out of the box.
More pics soon of the underside of the installation. Just have not had time to get it on a hoist.
Cheers.
Last edited by rsz288; 01-14-2009 at 02:09 AM. Reason: Feedback
11-20-2008, 09:29 PM
#83
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RSZ228,
The below TCI paddle shifter intrigues me somewhat as a best start point for paddle shifting the 6L80/90 transmission. I like the fact it doesn't require batteries to power it.
Since it's designed to work with a control box, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to make control box that could use the wireless CAN signal to activate switch(s) that then performs the same function as your manual dash switch(s) to trigger shifts. This way there are no external wires to deal with from paddles.
Since it uses horn button relay for power, it might be possible to make it the contact power source for triggering shifts, or maybe it could be wired to provide contact ground source for triggering shifts.
Just trying to provide a little imagineering with this. I'm too far behind your knowledge curve of how the 6Ls electronics work to know if my ideas have any merit. If it works, it might be possible to make a 6sp selected gear display for it similar to the 4/5sp one it has.
Cheers,
Jere
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Shifters/paddle/
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit
How often have you wished that your car had options similar to the high dollar g-machines and touring cars that you read about in the magazines? Now it can with the new TCI® Paddle Shifter. Designed to work with any automatic 4 or 5-speed transmission controlled by the revolutionary TCI® Transmission Control Unit, this shifter features distinctive show car styling and shifting performance that’s perfect for track days or highway cruising.
The TCI® Paddle Shifter communicates to the Transmission Control Unit through a wireless CAN signal with no worries about signal interference, lag time or disruption. The steering wheel mounted unit operates by slim, 1/2-inch thick paddle shifters which instantly instruct the transmission as to your gear of choice without delay. This shifter fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels and ships complete with several spacers of varying width, allowing you to set the steering wheel location for your personal preference. Additionally, this unit incorporates a modern digital read out that never leaves the driver guessing as to what gear they’re in. Power for the TCI® Paddle Shifter System comes from the horn button relay rather than from batteries that must be replaced frequently. Simply put, there’s not a better paddle shifter available for your modern muscle car or street rod.
Features & Benefits
Paddle shifter for any automatic 4 or 5 speed transmission controlled by the TCI® TCU
Fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels – provides consistent, repeatable shifting for g-machines and touring cars
Utilizes CAN signal for gear selection without interference or hesitation; includes easy-to-read digital gear display powered by horn connections
Easy to install, slim line 1/2-inch thick paddles with stylish black anodized finish
Description Part No.
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit 301441
The below TCI paddle shifter intrigues me somewhat as a best start point for paddle shifting the 6L80/90 transmission. I like the fact it doesn't require batteries to power it.
Since it's designed to work with a control box, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to make control box that could use the wireless CAN signal to activate switch(s) that then performs the same function as your manual dash switch(s) to trigger shifts. This way there are no external wires to deal with from paddles.
Since it uses horn button relay for power, it might be possible to make it the contact power source for triggering shifts, or maybe it could be wired to provide contact ground source for triggering shifts.
Just trying to provide a little imagineering with this. I'm too far behind your knowledge curve of how the 6Ls electronics work to know if my ideas have any merit. If it works, it might be possible to make a 6sp selected gear display for it similar to the 4/5sp one it has.
Cheers,
Jere
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Shifters/paddle/
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit
How often have you wished that your car had options similar to the high dollar g-machines and touring cars that you read about in the magazines? Now it can with the new TCI® Paddle Shifter. Designed to work with any automatic 4 or 5-speed transmission controlled by the revolutionary TCI® Transmission Control Unit, this shifter features distinctive show car styling and shifting performance that’s perfect for track days or highway cruising.
The TCI® Paddle Shifter communicates to the Transmission Control Unit through a wireless CAN signal with no worries about signal interference, lag time or disruption. The steering wheel mounted unit operates by slim, 1/2-inch thick paddle shifters which instantly instruct the transmission as to your gear of choice without delay. This shifter fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels and ships complete with several spacers of varying width, allowing you to set the steering wheel location for your personal preference. Additionally, this unit incorporates a modern digital read out that never leaves the driver guessing as to what gear they’re in. Power for the TCI® Paddle Shifter System comes from the horn button relay rather than from batteries that must be replaced frequently. Simply put, there’s not a better paddle shifter available for your modern muscle car or street rod.
Features & Benefits
Paddle shifter for any automatic 4 or 5 speed transmission controlled by the TCI® TCU
Fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels – provides consistent, repeatable shifting for g-machines and touring cars
Utilizes CAN signal for gear selection without interference or hesitation; includes easy-to-read digital gear display powered by horn connections
Easy to install, slim line 1/2-inch thick paddles with stylish black anodized finish
Description Part No.
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit 301441
11-21-2008, 05:05 AM
#84
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
RSZ228,
The below TCI paddle shifter intrigues me somewhat as a best start point for paddle shifting the 6L80/90 transmission. I like the fact it doesn't require batteries to power it.
Since it's designed to work with a control box, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to make control box that could use the wireless CAN signal to activate switch(s) that then performs the same function as your manual dash switch(s) to trigger shifts. This way there are no external wires to deal with from paddles.
Since it uses horn button relay for power, it might be possible to make it the contact power source for triggering shifts, or maybe it could be wired to provide contact ground source for triggering shifts.
Just trying to provide a little imagineering with this. I'm too far behind your knowledge curve of how the 6Ls electronics work to know if my ideas have any merit. If it works, it might be possible to make a 6sp selected gear display for it similar to the 4/5sp one it has.
Cheers,
Jere
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Shifters/paddle/
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit
How often have you wished that your car had options similar to the high dollar g-machines and touring cars that you read about in the magazines? Now it can with the new TCI® Paddle Shifter. Designed to work with any automatic 4 or 5-speed transmission controlled by the revolutionary TCI® Transmission Control Unit, this shifter features distinctive show car styling and shifting performance that’s perfect for track days or highway cruising.
The TCI® Paddle Shifter communicates to the Transmission Control Unit through a wireless CAN signal with no worries about signal interference, lag time or disruption. The steering wheel mounted unit operates by slim, 1/2-inch thick paddle shifters which instantly instruct the transmission as to your gear of choice without delay. This shifter fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels and ships complete with several spacers of varying width, allowing you to set the steering wheel location for your personal preference. Additionally, this unit incorporates a modern digital read out that never leaves the driver guessing as to what gear they’re in. Power for the TCI® Paddle Shifter System comes from the horn button relay rather than from batteries that must be replaced frequently. Simply put, there’s not a better paddle shifter available for your modern muscle car or street rod.
Features & Benefits
Paddle shifter for any automatic 4 or 5 speed transmission controlled by the TCI® TCU
Fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels – provides consistent, repeatable shifting for g-machines and touring cars
Utilizes CAN signal for gear selection without interference or hesitation; includes easy-to-read digital gear display powered by horn connections
Easy to install, slim line 1/2-inch thick paddles with stylish black anodized finish
Description Part No.
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit 301441
The below TCI paddle shifter intrigues me somewhat as a best start point for paddle shifting the 6L80/90 transmission. I like the fact it doesn't require batteries to power it.
Since it's designed to work with a control box, it makes me wonder how hard it would be to make control box that could use the wireless CAN signal to activate switch(s) that then performs the same function as your manual dash switch(s) to trigger shifts. This way there are no external wires to deal with from paddles.
Since it uses horn button relay for power, it might be possible to make it the contact power source for triggering shifts, or maybe it could be wired to provide contact ground source for triggering shifts.
Just trying to provide a little imagineering with this. I'm too far behind your knowledge curve of how the 6Ls electronics work to know if my ideas have any merit. If it works, it might be possible to make a 6sp selected gear display for it similar to the 4/5sp one it has.
Cheers,
Jere
http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Shifters/paddle/
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit
How often have you wished that your car had options similar to the high dollar g-machines and touring cars that you read about in the magazines? Now it can with the new TCI® Paddle Shifter. Designed to work with any automatic 4 or 5-speed transmission controlled by the revolutionary TCI® Transmission Control Unit, this shifter features distinctive show car styling and shifting performance that’s perfect for track days or highway cruising.
The TCI® Paddle Shifter communicates to the Transmission Control Unit through a wireless CAN signal with no worries about signal interference, lag time or disruption. The steering wheel mounted unit operates by slim, 1/2-inch thick paddle shifters which instantly instruct the transmission as to your gear of choice without delay. This shifter fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels and ships complete with several spacers of varying width, allowing you to set the steering wheel location for your personal preference. Additionally, this unit incorporates a modern digital read out that never leaves the driver guessing as to what gear they’re in. Power for the TCI® Paddle Shifter System comes from the horn button relay rather than from batteries that must be replaced frequently. Simply put, there’s not a better paddle shifter available for your modern muscle car or street rod.
Features & Benefits
Paddle shifter for any automatic 4 or 5 speed transmission controlled by the TCI® TCU
Fits all 5 & 6-bolt aftermarket steering wheels – provides consistent, repeatable shifting for g-machines and touring cars
Utilizes CAN signal for gear selection without interference or hesitation; includes easy-to-read digital gear display powered by horn connections
Easy to install, slim line 1/2-inch thick paddles with stylish black anodized finish
Description Part No.
Paddle Shifter for TCI® Transmission Control Unit 301441
Have been considering whether to try and use wireless remote control type buttons to operate remote relays for TUTD, or duplicate the factory style setup which uses a flexible printed circuit type connection wound up like a clock spring inside the steering wheel hub. Will see if that fits sometime very soon.
Maybe TCI is working on a 6L80 controller, or at least an interface, and may have support for paddles sometime soon?
MAST motorsports has built their ECM to talk to the 6L80, so the technology is out there!
Also heard there are some truck guys working on something on the west coast, but no real info on it.
Cheers n have a good weekend.
11-26-2008, 05:07 AM
#85
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
6L80 6L90 Instrumentation - Dashdaq on special FYI team, I mentioned the Dashdaq above as being a great addition for instrumentation/logging/diagnostics for GenIV on board diagnostics etc., well they are now on special!
Normal RRP was $695. Not cheap, but they are a very powerful device. Nothing I can find comes remotely close.
Now on special for about $550. Great value.
And with full GPS navigation for $695 or thereabouts.
Lingenfelter, one of the sponsors on here is a major Dashdaq dealer and uses them on a daily basis too.
They are developed by Drewtech, who is a major supplier of diagnostics and tuning tools to OEM's and to the aftermarket.
Cheers.
Normal RRP was $695. Not cheap, but they are a very powerful device. Nothing I can find comes remotely close.
Now on special for about $550. Great value.
And with full GPS navigation for $695 or thereabouts.
Lingenfelter, one of the sponsors on here is a major Dashdaq dealer and uses them on a daily basis too.
They are developed by Drewtech, who is a major supplier of diagnostics and tuning tools to OEM's and to the aftermarket.
Cheers.
12-27-2008, 04:18 PM
#86
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TUTD Controls Thanks
12-27-2008, 06:46 PM
#87
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I am interested in adding TUTD controls to my 6l90. I was hoping you can elaborate on the switches and resistors it takes to get the transmission to manually shift without using the bcm. Do you have a wiring diagram (or can you tell me where to find it) showing how this works. I have pin outs for everything from the truck the engine (LY6) and trans (6L90) came from. I was thinking of using a gennie type shifter. Bang it back to upshift, bang it forward to downshift. would look cool in a 39 ford I am working on. I'll stop rambling, if you could help me out with wiring I would really appreciate it.
Thanks
Thanks
I respect that.If you need a harness for this, dont hesitate to try Speartech, and for specific trans tuning: Corvettes of Westchester NY. Also EFI Connection does excellent quality harnesses as well.
Last edited by rsz288; 01-14-2009 at 01:56 AM.
12-28-2008, 04:22 PM
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hi 39 Ford, if you check www.repairprocedures.com you can track down the Corvette diagram. They give 24 hours trial logon. Apologies for not posting the schematic, but being GM copyrighted stuff...... I respect that.
If you need a harness for this, dont hesitate to try Speartech, and for specific trans tuning: Corvettes of Westchester NY.
I respect that.If you need a harness for this, dont hesitate to try Speartech, and for specific trans tuning: Corvettes of Westchester NY.
Last edited by 1939 Ford; 12-28-2008 at 04:33 PM.
03-01-2009, 02:39 PM
#90
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Thread Starter
You will see in post #64, the details on the pan with photo.
It is a 6L80 VE/G8 pan with an extended rear to match the 6L90 case.
Enjoy!
03-05-2009, 08:15 PM
#93
Is anyone working on a stand alone controller for this trans? Id be interested in installing one behind my carbed ls swap. As I understand it, the main trans computer is inside the trans. So I assume that it just needs bussed inputs like throttle position and ??? Also is anyone popping out stall converters for these yet. One last ? is the trans converter lockup complete or partial and in what gears is it applied? Any links or info would be helpful. Thanks
03-06-2009, 01:32 AM
#94
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Thread Starter
Is anyone working on a stand alone controller for this trans? Id be interested in installing one behind my carbed ls swap. As I understand it, the main trans computer is inside the trans. So I assume that it just needs bussed inputs like throttle position and ??? Also is anyone popping out stall converters for these yet. One last ? is the trans converter lockup complete or partial and in what gears is it applied? Any links or info would be helpful. Thanks
Good questions.........
There have been rumours of a stand alone controller for a least a year.
But really there is no need for one. The in trans controller is quite a smart device (there will be disagreement about this view!!!
) and the aftermarket has a good handle on accessing a lot of customisation already, so why re-invent the wheel!What is really needed is an engine emulator/interface, at least for carbed and earlier EFI setups.
Something that exchanges engine based data via CAN and makes out it is a late model EFI setup. All the trans needs is input torque data, throttle pos'n, ECT, Eng RPM, and wants to make torque reduction requests (virtual clutch disengagement
). Plus on later models 08/09 make speed matching requests.Yes hi stall convertors are available. Circle D for example.
And yes it has lockup converter with variable/modulated slip. The controller can command lockup/variable slip in any gear except 1st. '09 Cadi has a twin plate lock up convertor clutch.
All good fun!
Last edited by rsz288; 03-10-2009 at 12:55 AM.
03-06-2009, 07:37 AM
#95
I think this trans will have to be my next mod. I wonder how it acts if you just give the in trans controller power. Im sure it would be in limp mode but I wonder what it is for that trans. Chrysler products just get stuck in second except for the nag-1 which is a totally different story.
03-06-2009, 01:42 PM
#97
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I think this trans will have to be my next mod. I wonder how it acts if you just give the in trans controller power. Im sure it would be in limp mode but I wonder what it is for that trans. Chrysler products just get stuck in second except for the nag-1 which is a totally different story.
03-06-2009, 01:43 PM
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03-06-2009, 02:33 PM
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I have found some people selling their 6L80/90.
Some of them are 4x4, some with and some without the t-case.
I want this trans for my 1st gen F.
rsz2888 or whoever knows the answer, do you know what parts are needed to turn a 4x4 into a 4x2??
I know that that to do that on a 4L80 you even have to change a couple of internals. Hope this is not the caes with the 6 gear autos.
Some of them are 4x4, some with and some without the t-case.
I want this trans for my 1st gen F.
rsz2888 or whoever knows the answer, do you know what parts are needed to turn a 4x4 into a 4x2??
I know that that to do that on a 4L80 you even have to change a couple of internals. Hope this is not the caes with the 6 gear autos.
03-06-2009, 03:43 PM
#100
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Thread Starter
I have found some people selling their 6L80/90.
Some of them are 4x4, some with and some without the t-case.
I want this trans for my 1st gen F.
rsz2888 or whoever knows the answer, do you know what parts are needed to turn a 4x4 into a 4x2??
I know that that to do that on a 4L80 you even have to change a couple of internals. Hope this is not the caes with the 6 gear autos.
Some of them are 4x4, some with and some without the t-case.
I want this trans for my 1st gen F.
rsz2888 or whoever knows the answer, do you know what parts are needed to turn a 4x4 into a 4x2??
I know that that to do that on a 4L80 you even have to change a couple of internals. Hope this is not the caes with the 6 gear autos.