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I see your really trying to bash the Hagerty listings and that's fine I take them with a grain of salt as well. As far as the ad's go that white and tan Trans Am is just plain butt ugly, very much girl's car not to mention an LT1 so much less desirable. The blue Z is the same another LT1 car which do not have the desirability of an LS car not to mention that one lives in the middle of a lake...lol. The 02 Z is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP I mean an absolutely base model Z with no mention of accidents or title condition. Real miles or TMU, flood damaged, salvage rebuilt or some other dealer game they play to get the unsuspecting on the lot with a low price. You never know the truth till you're face to face with it and like Hagerty all these ads have to be taken with a grain of salt. Not one of them may be something you'd be willing to fork over your money on up close.
That's the only LS1 F-body convertible I can find in my area right now, and the asking price from a dealer is $2,300 less than the Hagerty valuation tool lists for a "good" condition 2002 Z28 convertible.
...and that one had $5,900 of price cuts over the last five months but still hasn't sold yet...
BTW - the blue Z28 was very nice overall
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
... As far as the ad's go that white and tan Trans Am is just plain butt ugly, very much girl's car not to mention an LT1 so much less desirable. The blue Z is the same another LT1 car which do not have the desirability of an LS car not to mention that one lives in the middle of a lake...lol.
was just thinking that is one Fugly white & tan T/A
...I'm definitely not a 2nd Gen LT1 fan boy, I wouldn't hold too much against a decent 4th Gen just for being an LT1, as all of the 4th Gen cars are 20+ years old, typically need something and pretty slow if stock by today's standards...
Last edited by 99 Black Bird T/A; 11-23-2022 at 08:28 AM.
So in all fairness comparing a base model Z 28 to a WS6 really is unfair. I've included both base Z 28 values and SS values. As you know I don't truly believe in this pricing but you can see a base model Z doesn't bring nearly the money an SS does and neither are as valuable as a WS6. I would suppose the SS to WS6 comparison is apples to apples with the Pontiacs pulling ahead since GM killed the brand. Any one of these numbers could easily be a retail asking price with the dealer knowing fully well they are going to be bargained down. I use 2000 as an example because my WS6 is a 2000.
I agree with them. As long as YOU enjoy your ride, keep putting the $$$ into it. I do, and I just spent serious money on a new set of rims/tires after my original 16" wouldn't stop leaking from the bead area. Such a shame....
I'm there. My 16"s leak as well on my `99. Next set will be 17"s with 315s in the rear. What size and tires did you go with?
I see your really trying to bash the Hagerty listings and that's fine I take them with a grain of salt as well.
I just think Hagerty is offering some misleading numbers, perhaps because they including asking price data in their valuation matrix. I don't think I've ever paid full asking price for any car I've ever bought, even during the huge joeflation spike we've seen these last 18-24 months. Again, I do understand that they might scale the data by a presumed percentage that can usually be negotiated away, but it's still problematic as there are a bunch of dreamers that ask HUGE money (sometimes double the real value) and never get their cars sold. Even in scaled format, that data is going to skew the matrix.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
As far as the ad's go that white and tan Trans Am is just plain butt ugly, very much girl's car not to mention an LT1 so much less desirable.
The blue Z is the same another LT1 car which do not have the desirability of an LS car not to mention that one lives in the middle of a lake...lol.
Middle of a lake? Not sure what you mean there. As for a "girls car", there is no color combination that's more gender neutral than white/tan, the only styling "ugliness" I see with that car is the wheels - beyond that, it looks just as good (or bad, depending on personal opinion) as any other early 4th gen T/A convertible.
To be clear, I wasn't really debating desirability of one engine over the other, it was more about the inflated values that Hagerty seems to indicate respective to either version. For example, regarding the blue car for $10k, Hagerty lists the value of that same car as $14.6k in "good" (which it clearly seems to be, maybe slightly better) condition. That's a $4,600 difference.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
The 02 Z is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP I mean an absolutely base model Z with no mention of accidents or title condition. Real miles or TMU, flood damaged, salvage rebuilt or some other dealer game they play to get the unsuspecting on the lot with a low price.
Check out the ad again, it clearly indicates: 2 owners, clean title, NO accidents. I'm sure the dealer has an AutoCheck or Carfax on hand to prove this, otherwise I doubt they would list this data in their ad.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
So in all fairness comparing a base model Z 28 to a WS6 really is unfair.
I posted LT1/LS1 Z28s and a LT1 Trans Am because they were the only local (to me) convertibles listed (at ANY price) that popped up in my usual searches, no WS6 'verts in my immediate area, but I wasn't doing any sort of exhaustive internet hunt for "cheap" examples or anything such as this. I was just showing that nice/good condition V8 4th gen convertibles can still be had for WAY less than $20k, which was one of the earlier conversation points in this thread.
But the last example I posted, the 2002 Z28 convertible, is another excellent illustration of Hagerty's tendency to overvalue. Even at "good" condition, they were $2300 higher than list price at the only local dealer example I could find. My point wasn't about how value of this Z28 might compare to a WS6, but how it compares to Hagerty's listed value for the same car.
Read above my posts I'm not the only one who dislikes the white one. 99 Black Birds quote is "fugly". I refer to the color combo as feminine because my wife's last 3 cars have been ordered in those very colors.
Again as I've said before I'm not in line with Hagerty's pricing but they are more in line with what you find here in the overpriced northeast and possibly the west coast. Keep in mind Hagerty is aimed at high end yuppies that have more money than sense and like to talk about how much they paid. Compare that to us normal people who talk about what we saved on something. For an example check what their insurance quotes are for agreed value policies. I have Grundy and am paying hundreds less per year than what I was quoted by Hagerty.
If you look at the Craigslist ad it shows the location pin as being in the middle of Lake Marie that's all to that. Attempted humor.
As for the Black '02 159 days at the dealership 169 days on cargurus with a $5900 price drop? That car was available since May/June at that dealership, in other words late spring, all summer through the fall until now and it hasn't sold. There has to be something seriously negative going on with that car other than it's base model cheapness. You do realize that when it went on the market earlier this year it was priced at $22,500 right in between Hagerty's excellent and good price levels for a base 02 Z28. Remember if the owner pays out of pocket for an issue with the car it's not reported to carfax. Only insurance payout reports make it onto the cars record.
Read above my posts I'm not the only one who dislikes the white one. 99 Black Birds quote is "fugly". I refer to the color combo as feminine because my wife's last 3 cars have been ordered in those very colors.
White is as neutral as it gets, and the tan interior color is literally sometimes referred to as "neutral" in GM publications. Any connection to these being highly feminine is just not objectively true. And, for what it's worth, none of my cars are white/tan so I have no dog in this fight. LOL. I think the wheels are the only reason most folks would find the car truly ugly, unless they just don't like 4th gen Trans Am convertibles.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
Again as I've said before I'm not in line with Hagerty's pricing but they are more in line with what you find here in the overpriced northeast and possibly the west coast.
Perhaps, then, they should offer a ZIP code correction feature?
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
Keep in mind Hagerty is aimed at high end yuppies that have more money than sense and like to talk about how much they paid. Compare that to us normal people who talk about what we saved on something. For an example check what their insurance quotes are for agreed value policies. I have Grundy and am paying hundreds less per year than what I was quoted by Hagerty.
The bolded part is SPOT ON. In fact, and this is obviously just speculation on my part, it's very possible that Hagerty is purposely inflating the values with hopes of inspiring their customers to insure for higher amounts.
I am also with Grundy (and have been since 2008) because, just as you mentioned, they are significantly cheaper for each car in my collection than Hagerty.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
If you look at the Craigslist ad it shows the location pin as being in the middle of Lake Marie that's all to that. Attempted humor.
Haha...I hadn't paid any attention to that, as I know the local area so I only looked at the town listed (not the map).
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
As for the Black '02 159 days at the dealership 169 days on cargurus with a $5900 price drop? That car was available since May/June at that dealership, in other words late spring, all summer through the fall until now and it hasn't sold. There has to be something seriously negative going on with that car other than it's base model cheapness.
Yes, not the least of which is the fact it was drastically overpriced.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
You do realize that when it went on the market earlier this year it was priced at $22,500 right in between Hagerty's excellent and good price levels for a base 02 Z28.
Again, further indication that actual sale/purchase prices at the Hagerty level shouldn't be expected. The only exception might be at the Concourse or Excellent-plus level for reasons I've already touched on above.
In fact, it's even possible that the high initial price might have been captured and factored as part of the Hagerty valuation at some point this year, leading to poor data (as the car obviously never sold at that price). This is what I was referring to about the potential (and risk) of unrealistically high asking prices causing flawed data as they skew the average.
Originally Posted by Y2K-WS.6
Remember if the owner pays out of pocket for an issue with the car it's not reported to carfax. Only insurance payout reports make it onto the cars record.
But this is always equally true for every vehicle, not just this one, therefore such would apply to every/any example with no accident and clean title history. Hidden history is always possible.
Back to the OP's original question, THEY DO EXIST! Yesterday on the way home from work in my T/A, I encountered another WS6 'vert M6 on the same road I was traveling, this one was red and had a loud aftermarket exhaust on it. He passed me and we caught up at the next light. We complemented each other's car, he said he wanted a black one and "had to settle" for red, I joked back that I wanted a red one and "settled" for black, LOL. From the wheels on his car, it was a '98-'00 MY. When the light turned green, his lane moved ahead of mine and he eventually got in front of me. Now its not everyday that I get to view our 'verts on the road from the rear, but I must say that these cars look really bad-a$$, especially w/ the top down. If I ever encounter him again, I'll be sure to ask for 5 mins to pull over and take some pictures of our cars together.
^^^ Sometimes we can tend to forget how sweet they look. My wife reminds me how much she likes the looks still and that gets me seriously looking again, and agree 100%. The rear shot is impressive to this day.
I didn't realize this either. I see decent convertible 4th gens pop up for sale in my area at least a couple times per year, they usually seem harder to sell than a hard top or t-top model in my region.
Here's one that's been for sale all year
Of course, they are harder to sell. The 4th gen verts were a victim of the 1st-3rd gen convertibles fact-based prejudice, "Rattle trap, as structurally sound as overcooked pasta" convictions, based on reality. GM knew this and in the 1998 Camaro brochures they wrote "The new 98 convertibles were designed from the start to be convertibles". A rare example of truth in advertising trying to convince the public that the 4th gen vert was a very different animal from previous ones. From 98-02 the brochures maintained this rhetoric for a good reason. It is the reason almost all the sub frame manufacturers have the same warning for their 3-point products "NOT nor convertibles". Those products will not fit the verts, which is strange when popular culture firmly believed the verts were structurally inferior to the T-Tops and Hardtops. 1998-2001 most buyers had no clue that the convertibles were so structurally better than all the other 4th gen models, Camaro or Firebird. Clueless. A GM education fail.
Wrong today for the used car F body buyer to prefer anything 4th gen to the convertible.
The opposite is true, the verts are structurally superior to the other 4th gens, which is why most 3-point SFC's won't fit. I'll did up some photos of my 01 vert and 98 hardtop (which it is not. tear off the plastic hardtop panel and find the entire T-top structure. flimsy as it is) prior to making them full frame cars. You'll see they don't match. GM actually did add structural reinforcements to the vert which is why those 3-point SFC's won't fit (except the few specifically made for verts). You can see the difference between 4th gen cars at a glance.
^^^ I had a little trouble following your assessment but I agree that the 4th gen 'verts are made well. I've had mine since 'new' and it has handled well and taken us all over the US. I do not race the car, or take it to the track, so the need for upgrades is minimal. On the other hand, for comparison sake, my old 2007 Mustang GT/CS 'vert had way more rattles. especially with bumps, RR tracks, etc..., My current '14 GT is still too new to have them at just 12k miles but I have a feeling it will be similar to my other in time.
^^^ I had a little trouble following your assessment but I agree that the 4th gen 'verts are made well. I've had mine since 'new' and it has handled well and taken us all over the US. I do not race the car, or take it to the track, so the need for upgrades is minimal. On the other hand, for comparison sake, my old 2007 Mustang GT/CS 'vert had way more rattles. especially with bumps, RR tracks, etc..., My current '14 GT is still too new to have them at just 12k miles but I have a feeling it will be similar to my other in time.
YES
I laugh when I hear "I keep my Mustang, F body, Challenger EXACTLY the way it was built." It is impossible, just ask and body shop about the specifications they use with their frame machines to bend cars back into shape after an accident. Most have at some point out of curiosity taken the measurements of some really nice 5-year-old car. Surprise! Much out of spec. The fanatics claim they kept their 20-year-old car just as it was built. They are not stupid, just ignorant. Metal fatigue is real, the cars start to bend before they are delivered to the first customer, and they never stop. Why care? Because the suspension works ever worse as time goes by. The brakes too and even the ride gets worse. All facts, my 01 SS vert has exactly no rattles, shake or squeaks, even over bumps, rough roads and RR tracks. GM welded in OEM the equal of frame connectors at the vert factory. Even so, most 4th gen verts do have rattles, etc. Here is a photo of my 98 Z/28 hardtop from 1998: Jacking rail across the entire pinch weld under the doors. Double fabricated SFC, triangulated to the tunnel brace. Notice the short pieces of steel welded into the gap between the pinch weld and the front sub frame. The C5 race guys identified this area as particularly weak when they started developing a 4th gen racer. GMMG intended to incorporate this into their Blackbird production but never did, their chambered exhaust is nice though (pic 4) Under the hood this is assisted by a 3-point STB attached to the windshield surround. Ever notice spider web cracks in the paint of the rear quarter? This is how you prevent that. The tunnel brace looks impressive but does almost nothing except act as a driveshaft "loop".
Yes, I was only just learning to weld. Crude, but effective. 25 years on there are no rattles.
My favorite comment from a Showroom Stock racer (where all chassis reinforcement is verboten): "We all go really fast while bending our cars into pretzels."
Last edited by LSX Thunder; 08-22-2023 at 05:53 AM.
Of course, they are harder to sell. The 4th gen verts were a victim of the 1st-3rd gen convertibles fact-based prejudice, "Rattle trap, as structurally sound as overcooked pasta" convictions, based on reality. GM knew this and in the 1998 Camaro brochures they wrote "The new 98 convertibles were designed from the start to be convertibles".
Actually, GM was making this claim when the 4th gen 'verts were introduced in 1994. It was one of the factors that led me to purchase my '94 Z28 M6 'vert. There is no structural (sheet metal stamping) differences between the '94-'97 MYs and the '98-'02 MYs. GM DID improve / increase the adhesives used for bonding some panels to the structure in '98, but that was part of the continuous process improvements, not in response to perceived complaints of the 'verts being "rattle traps".
I do find it interesting that most of the SFC suppliers don't have a 3-point version for the 'verts. Glad I purchased my Kenny Brown 3-point SFCs for my 'vert when it was available. Despite all of GM's claims that the 4th gen 'verts are much improved over the 3rd gen "afterthought" 'verts (which they are), they still exhibit a lot of cowl shake over bumps. Adding even a 2-point SFC helps this a lot, but not as much as a true 3-point SFC.
GM welded in OEM the equal of frame connectors at the vert factory. Even so, most 4th gen verts do have rattles, etc. Here is a photo of my 98 Z/28 hardtop from 1998:
The SFC shown in that photo was not "welded in ....at the vert factory", I can guarantee you that. The factory stock 'verts DID have a small stamped-steel plate that was supposed to reinforce the floor pan (that went under the driveshaft as you mention later) and held in place w/ 4 bolts. This was not present on T-Top or HT cars. But compared to a SFC, it was pretty worthless.
[QUOTE=JohnnyBs98WS6Rag;20515830]Actually, GM was making this claim when the 4th gen 'verts were introduced in 1994. It was one of the factors that led me to purchase my '94 Z28 M6 'vert. There is no structural (sheet metal stamping) differences between the '94-'97 MYs and the '98-'02 MYs. GM DID improve / increase the adhesives used for bonding some panels to the structure in '98, but that was part of the continuous process improvements, not in response to perceived complaints of the 'verts being "rattle traps".
That is incorrect. Call the tech line at UMI for confirmation. They will tell you that the 3-point SFC that all the other manufacturers make say right on their web site NOT FOR CONVERTIBLES. That's because they don't fit convertibles. If as you write " There is no structural (sheet metal stamping) differences between the '94-'97 MYs and the '98-'02 MYs." Then why don't all the other manufactures SFC fit? UMI designed their 3-point to avoid the differences between the verts and the T-top/hardtop 4th gen's.
I do find it interesting that most of the SFC suppliers don't have a 3-point version for the 'verts. Glad I purchased my Kenny Brown 3-point SFCs for my 'vert when it was available. Despite all of GM's claims that the 4th gen 'verts are much improved over the 3rd gen "afterthought" 'verts (which they are), they still exhibit a lot of cowl shake over bumps. Adding even a 2-point SFC helps this a lot, but not as much as a true 3-point SFC.
That is true. Which is my photos look as they do. The KBSFC was a big step up over what else was available then but vastly inferior to what is available now, the UMI 3-point SFC must weigh more than double what the KB triangulated ones do and that steel tubing running under the doors is so massive it shows easily under the car just looking from the side. The UMI tube is vastly stronger than the one-inch boxes the KB was made of.
Last edited by LSX Thunder; 08-22-2023 at 07:35 AM.
[QUOTE=JohnnyBs98WS6Rag;20515832]The SFC shown in that photo was not "welded in ....at the vert factory", I can guarantee you that.
I clearly wrote the photo was my fabrication, not GM's. Rookie welding and all. No professions were harmed. Described by one Showroom Stock racer as the heaviest F body in existence. He was sad about that but ecstatic about how it handled. Illegal in SRS anyway.
"The factory stock 'verts DID have a small stamped-steel plate that was supposed to reinforce the floor pan (that went under the driveshaft as you mention later) and held in place w/ 4 bolts. This was not present on T-Top or HT cars. But compared to a SFC, it was pretty worthless"
Wrong. That was on all 4th gen F body cars OEM, but right, it's worthless. I removed it from my 98 hardtop Z/28 when I fabricated what the photos show. Once done, a floor jack anywhere picks up 3 wheels and the doors open and close without any binding. Strong UMI fits verts and hardtop/T-Top. Clearly visible on the road on 3rd or 4th gen. Black option helps it disappear.
Last edited by LSX Thunder; 08-22-2023 at 08:51 AM.
Again, serious need of a wheel change (seems to be a disappointing trend)
. But this might just be another joeflation thing that will wane as sanity returns to the market.
Disappointing trend is understatement at its best. In spite of what GM marketing insists on for later F bodies, the 20"-24" and beyond crowd do provide a public service. As it is illegal now in most of the US to require an IQ test for hiring, this is an excellent and legal alternative. Social scientists can easily establish the correlation of purchased aftermarket wheel diameter and IQ.
11-23-2022, 07:23 AM
was just thinking that is one Fugly white & tan T/A
.
Clearly visible on the road on 3rd or 4th gen. Black option helps it disappear.