boostdgli

funny enough, i was talking with someone about the magnuson-moss warranty act. well, with some research i have discovered by federal law they cannot legaly cancel my warranty just because nor force me to replace it in turn of voiding my warranty if i don't comply. there are several act that cover this, another that reinforces this is the clean air act warranty provisions.

also i looked online at a gm parts dealer and the catalytic converter msrp (per cat) is $471 and change which comes to for ease of explanation $1000.00 i they were gonna charge me almost $400 to install the ones i was taking them. i honestly don't know where the hell $1200 comes from. kinda interesting. well, i'm gonna call bill heard tomorrow then GM and see what sort of agreement i can come up with. again thank you all for the imput. i REALLY appreciate it all, even the negative comments, hahaha.

Chemdawg99

Dude, the way I see it you have two choices, one will cost four figures, the other will cost almost five along with a lot of time and you will still wind up paying to have your car fixed.

If you make modifications to a brand new car and something goes boom on your powertrain (engine, ECM, etc.) and the dealer finds out about it, you are going to pay out of your own pocket to have it fixed. $1200 is a small price to pay to preserve your warranty. If you fight the dealer and GM by spouting the M&M act and take them court after you deleted cats (a federal violation) on a car that clearly ran on public roads, all the dealer has to prove is that your car is missing cats and your ECM was reprogrammed and now you are out money to a lawyer, money to fix/sell/tow your car, and whole lot of time. The dealer is going out on a limb for you already. Do yourself a favor and save yourself some headaches and let the dealer fix your car.

Azrael

iTrader: (10)

I suggest you not listen to Chemdawg99, and am glad you are now on the right track. Good luck!

Chemdawg99

Let me give you the bottom line here. The REAL bottom line:
1. YOU removed the cats which are part of the exhaust system which ultimately affects the powertrain.
2. YOU deleted the cats out of your ECM (you had to in order to be able to drive it without cats) which means you reprogrammed the ECM which is the "brain" of the powertrain.
3. The engine blew. Unfortunate for you, and I honestly feel your pain, but because of 1 and 2 above, the dealer and GM can void the powertrain part of your warranty. You and a few others are right, the dealer cannot void the entire warranty, just the parts that your modification affected, which in your case is the engine which is part of the powertrain.

I sincerely hope that you can resolve your issues and get your car fixed under warranty to your satisfaction. I am just trying to hip you to the reality of the risks you take (financial risks that is) when you mod your car. God Bless!

Azrael

iTrader: (10)

Chemdawg, jeez... Magnuson-Moss is on point on this. They have to prove that what he did caused the engine to blow, and then they can only void coverage for that specific part (not the whole powertrain).

If what he describes is true then the engine did not die because of the !cat and tuning; but because of debris in the internals.

While you make some valid points, the crux is that they can not arbitrarily void his warranty without proper documentation and a relevant relationship to the failure.

Debris destruction != cat removal...

Chemdawg99

I am truly not trying to be a rabble rouser or make the OP feel bad. I am not an anti-mod guy in any way (I wouldn't be a member of this site if I were) I really feel for the OP and I hope his plan for recourse is successful.

That said, the M&M act has been around since 1975, I am quite familiar with this law, I have had to deal with it a time or two. There are a LOT of dealers out there that can give a rat's azz about you when have a major problem with your car like the OP is having.

If this dealer wasn't trying to work with him, they would have denied him warranty coverage/service (in writing) pulled his car out of their service area and told him to pound sand by now. The dealer has to get approval to perform warranty service from GMPP BEFORE they do any work and describe the service in detail AFTER the work is performed. If the dealer sees a modification that could even be remotely related to the part that failed (in this case the engine) then the service writer has the get the service manager to approve the job which he/she will not do because once the write up goes to GM regional it is likely to get shot down. Service managers that perform work on cars without prior approval and then are found to have issues that would have been disapproved (cat delete) then the service manager will either have to come out of pocket, lose his/her job or both.

The dealer/GM need only have to say that a probable cause of the engine failure was the reflashing of the ECM (part of the powertrain) and the increased power of running the car without cats put undue stress on the engine and caused it fail. Then it would be on the OP to prove that this was not the case.

Again, I sympathize with the OP, but IMHO if he fights this thing he stands a pretty good chance of losing a lot more money than if he just lets the dealer fix his car and preserve his warranty.

You are right that the deleted cats in and of themselves most likely had nothing to do with his engine failure, but anytime you reprogram an ECM or remove an environmental system on a car you are taking a chance if you have a powertrain failure.

To the OP: I wish you the best of luck

boostdgli

i am not at a disagreement with you, the issue i have is that the day i brought it in i was covered under warranty as told by the service rep. they told me gm approved my engine replacement and i'd have a motor in a week but was still covered under warranty. then, the day that the motor started going in, i get a call telling me about all of this. to me it was neglegance on their behalf since they didn't perform a full inspection when they needed to. also i have been lied to directly on a few occasions, whats to say they arent telling me this to cover their mistake? i really just want my car back, but its not going to happen if they are going to throw misc. issues in after the process was in the final stages. the times i was lied to were about things that GM told them to do.

Sigforty

From previous experiences I have had with dealerships they will try to screw you. Now if it goes to the regional, which I have had to do before, the dealership will get screwed. Ever instance I have had for warranty work that had to go to regional they override the service writer and manager of the dealership. The dealership hates it when people come in and know more than them about how cars work. The service writer and service manager are there just to make that dealer money. If you request to take it up with the regional will work in your favor.

Chemdawg99

Boostdgli, the dealer did indeed do you a disservice by not performing a proper inspection before they started to perform the replacement of your engine. Unfortunately, the dealer is in a conundrum and so are you which is what I was attempting to point out to you originally.

Your problem is that you did indeed put your powertrain warranty in jeopardy by modifiying the ECM and removing the cats, which I assume that you did not disclose to the dealer before the work was started.

The dealer's problem was that they did not catch this issue before they started the work, which explains why they were willing to accomdate you thus far (self-serving IMHO, because the service manager could lose his job for ordering you a new engine i.e. spending GM money without performing a proper inspection).

Your best course of action is to take things up with the general manager of the dealership and work out a compromise. Unfortunately, you are probably going to have to pay to have the cats put back in and have the ECM reflashed to stock to avoid paying for a new engine out of your pocket. I am sure if you sit down with the service manager and work out a compromise that covers both of you, you will come out ahead. If you fight these guys, they will do whatever it takes to protect themselves and you will be without a working car and lot of cash.

I am not suggesting that your mods caused your engine to blow, but this is what happens when you make those mods and then run into a problem. GM spends $400 million dollars a month on warranty claims and they design these powertrains to be as bulletproof as possible. They will deny a claim anytime they see a mod to an ECM or an environmental system that has been changed or removed.

If you can't work a deal, then talk to GM regional, but bear in mind they have already spent money on a new engine for you and may not be likely to support you because of the mods. The fact that the service manager failed to inspect your car put him/her at a disadvantage with GM. I would exercise this "loophole" and negotiate rather than litigate. Good Luck

boostdgli

i think that you have stated a valid point. the issue is that it is possible that they are trying to screw me here. i talked to the manager and asked him to send me a letter from the rep stating the whole situation(which i am legally entitled to) however, he told me no and told me a new story as to what is "really" going on. now the piston ring got fried and now hes doing me a favor since he talked to the regional rep and they decided that the cats 'probably didn't cause the malfunction'(word for word what he told me) so now i have gone from bumper to bumper warranty void, to powertrain void, to emissions warranty void (not necessarily in that order but all around in every combination). i honestly just want an honest answer or explanation from someone whos word actually means more than (or lack of better terms) the gum on my shoe. i have no problem compromising reasonably once i get an honest explanation of what is going on.

Chemdawg99

Of course the dealer is trying to screw you, no doubt about that.

Again, your mistake was modding a car under warranty and having an expectation that your warranty would be honored. Their mistake was in ordering an engine for you without and starting work without inspecting the car.

It all boils down to your comfort level. If you want the car back up and running you have three choices: pay the dealer the money to put the cats back on and maintain your warranty, fight the dealer under M&M (bear in mind that they do have you under the gun over the mods), or say screw the warranty and take your car to another shop and pay out of your pocket for a new engine.

Take care and once again, best of luck

boostdgli

i was refused a written document stating what was going on and why, so now i have taken it to a higher individual. there is a ton of new information and all sorts of ridiculousness going on that i choose not to post up here for my own protection incase further actions need be taken(might be a possibility here soon if the same trend continues). anyway, now that things have happened that no individual should EVER need to experience or deal with on ANY level of profession, i can no longer post any more info until the issue gets resolved.

Chemdawg99

Truly a bummer about your Vette. I hope everything works out for you. Good Luck

ls1290

iTrader: (20)

That is a good sign in your favor. Unless something underhanded and/or criminal is going on, there is no reason why they should not provide that type of documentation. Any ways, I hope things work out for you. Things like this are reason why I will never take my car to a dealership. Any GM ASE certified mechanic can do warranty work. Find a good local shop with one and take it there for now on.

Keith

bzettler83

This is just stupid.....

My WS6 Trans Am was modded, headers, no cats, cat back, intake, throttle body, bla bla... And the full bumper to bumper 100k warranty worked every time.... I had the tranny rebuild under warranty, the rear end re build under warranty, some kind of seal replaced, A/c Compressor.... All under warranty.... The way it was explained to me was that they had to prove the aftermarket part caused the malfunction, not when an 02 sensor went bad I had to pay for it because they said it was becuase of the aftermarket exhaust. I either had a great service tech at my chevy dealer or this guy it getting screwed.

BTW same dealership allowed me to bring in aftermarket gears and have them install them when they re did the rear end, for no additional cost, just the cost of the gears.

These guys are screwing you... By the way why are you selling the car