Cartek 4x H/c = 10.41 @ 131.15
03-26-2007, 12:30 PM
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{Its funny you said that... I just came back from the QTP EFI event which took place this morning under the tread of rain. The DA was bouncing between 0' and +30' all day.} QOUTE
That little change in da wont matter much at all. It takes a little more of a +30 change to see a difference. We had +1800 here in NC Sun. Our car was anywhere from 3-4 tenths off on motor. And 2 mph slower.So he is right. You will not run those times in the south unless the da is around the same. Your car is hauling *** though, so congrats on your setup.
That little change in da wont matter much at all. It takes a little more of a +30 change to see a difference. We had +1800 here in NC Sun. Our car was anywhere from 3-4 tenths off on motor. And 2 mph slower.So he is right. You will not run those times in the south unless the da is around the same. Your car is hauling *** though, so congrats on your setup.
03-26-2007, 12:31 PM
#62
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Congrats on your results.
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
03-26-2007, 04:32 PM
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so how come I run .06 seconds slower in 0' DA then I do in "mineshaft air" even with a much worse 60' in the higher altitude DA.
Is that wheel spin also J-Rod?
mineshaft air: 10.41 @ 131.15 1.45 60'
sea level: 10.47 @ 131.48 1.49 60'
Is 8-9% HP only worth .06 seconds? is a .04 second difference in 60' worth .3 MPH?
Is that wheel spin also J-Rod?
mineshaft air: 10.41 @ 131.15 1.45 60'
sea level: 10.47 @ 131.48 1.49 60'
Is 8-9% HP only worth .06 seconds? is a .04 second difference in 60' worth .3 MPH?
03-26-2007, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by silverbeast
That little change in da wont matter much at all. It takes a little more of a +30 change to see a difference. We had +1800 here in NC Sun. Our car was anywhere from 3-4 tenths off on motor. And 2 mph slower.So he is right. You will not run those times in the south unless the da is around the same. Your car is hauling *** though, so congrats on your setup.
So come to Cecil, Atco, E-town and run your car... who i stopping you? Or maybe it's my fault that my parents moved to NJ and not NC, maybe because of that my times are not real.
03-26-2007, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Congrats on your results.
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Thats not to take anything away from your time or you car's performance. But I would hope we can all agree that negative DA is "free HP".
Also, for a handheld station to read correctly it needs to be calibrated properly. Many folks don't calibrate their stations. That may be fine as long as you use the same station every time, you can keep your tuneup the same. But, if you are looking at a correction factor, it throws it off. Your -800 number seems rather conservative based on the relevant data.
In my experience you can't say its all temp. Its a combination. It all comes down to dense, cool, dry air makes big power, period. Atco has the advantage of having crazy barometric pressure unlike any area in the U.S. that I've raced. Cold damp (high humidity) air won't make good power. Cold dry air with no barometric pressure (like in Denver) won't make good power either. High baro is free supercharging.
We get "good" air in Houston, but nothing like Atco. We might see "freak" winter weather where we get 30.3 or 30.4. If you couple that with a North wind to keep the humidty down we can see good negative DA. We keep meticulous logs, and run a weather station as well.
If you get mid 40's and 30.6 or 30.7 that is halfway dry, that is "mineshaft" air. Keep in mind that DA like can yield +8-9% more crank HP. If you don't believe that, go dyno a car on a dyno jet and compare the uncorrected numbers over a zero, or positive DA day. We're talking +40-50HP I'm not saying your car doesn't perform well, but the weather does have some effect.
If you want a correlating event, why do all the Cartek cars that set a record do so in weather like that? Why were folks setting records and personal bests? Simple physics. There have been several track days or good weather days where cars at Atco have put down some incredible numbers. Its not to say the cars didn't run the number. Its just seems to me folks want to ignore the fact the weather has some effect on it.
As for the car running the same speed in different air. Wheelspin will increase trap speed.
Anyway, congrats on your combo. I'd expect you have some more time left in the car, and we can expect to see you improve even more. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
Bob
03-27-2007, 01:08 AM
#66
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Ok, lets look at it this way. If -2500 DA has no effect on your car's performance, then +2500 DA should have no effect on your car either. So, do you think your car is going to run the same times in the summer time? Or even better, if you take your car to someplace in the midwest. Same temp, same baro, just more elevation. So, DA will be positive. Can you sit here and state that the car will run the same number or relative close. I've even seen cars from New Jersey run on tracks with near sea level to just slightly positive. Guess what? They lost several tenths over their record times from Atco.
I think we should all be willing to agree it would not. In fact NHRA has a correction factor just for that. Your ET corrects roughly to a 10.68 - 10.70 @ 127.7 at sea level as an example....
http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/altitude.html
Negative DA, or even "decent" air shows up every once in awhile in the Pro-Stock classes. Just look at the race last week in Gainsville
How good was it? Anderson ran 6.566 at a national record top speed of 211.20 mph. How good was the DA on March 18th in Gainsville. 30.2 to 30.3 mid 60's and low humidity (mid to high 20's).
Again, simple test. Go dyno your car on a really cold dry day with high barometric pressure. Then, post up the corrected and uncorrected dyno sheet.
If you want to to do the math yourself here it is.
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepo..._factor_cf.php
where: cf = the dyno correction factor
Pd = the pressure of the dry air, mb
Tc = ambient temperature, deg C
Again, I'd like to be clear.
I do not doubt for one second that your car is a very strong very fast car.
I do not doubt for one second that you are a good driver.
I do not doubt for one second that your ran the numbers you posted up.
But, all I am saying is that the weather has a beneficial effect on performance, and the extremely negative Density altitudes seen at Atco do benfit the individual who run there just like they do at other tracks that exhibit the same characteristics. Atco just simply gets the biggest gain of any of the tracks I know of by virtue of the nature of some of the freak artic high pressure that comes in...
Here, let me go the other way with it... And please, bear with me, I'm just having fun here.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/412609-afr-205s-big-cam-128mph.html#post3832083
The last time we took the car out (where a rear end didn't explode upon launch)
the DA was +2350 to +2400
60 - 1.5253
330 - 4.4827
1/8 - 6.9476
mph - 98.86
1000 - 9.0896
1/4 - 10.8822
mph - 128.28
So, if I want to go the other way and go extrapolate my performance...
10.8822 = 10.57532 at 0 DA. At -2400 that equates to a 10.2770
Did the car run that number. Nope.
Do I tell people it runs that number. Nope.
If it did run that number would I brag on it. Yup.
Again, this post isn't to take anything away from you car's performance. I just think we should all appreciate it for what it is...
I think we should all be willing to agree it would not. In fact NHRA has a correction factor just for that. Your ET corrects roughly to a 10.68 - 10.70 @ 127.7 at sea level as an example....
http://www.nhra.com/tech_specs/altitude.html
Negative DA, or even "decent" air shows up every once in awhile in the Pro-Stock classes. Just look at the race last week in Gainsville
Originally Posted by Greg Anderson
"We're all running career-best numbers but I bet not very many of us would say we're making good runs," Anderson said. "The conditions got so good overnight it was like the horsepower fairy came by and sprinkled 50 extra horsepower on every engine. We've got no experience with that. No one does. It makes it very tough.
Again, simple test. Go dyno your car on a really cold dry day with high barometric pressure. Then, post up the corrected and uncorrected dyno sheet.
If you want to to do the math yourself here it is.
http://www.ajdesigner.com/phphorsepo..._factor_cf.php
where: cf = the dyno correction factor
Pd = the pressure of the dry air, mb
Tc = ambient temperature, deg C
Again, I'd like to be clear.
I do not doubt for one second that your car is a very strong very fast car.
I do not doubt for one second that you are a good driver.
I do not doubt for one second that your ran the numbers you posted up.
But, all I am saying is that the weather has a beneficial effect on performance, and the extremely negative Density altitudes seen at Atco do benfit the individual who run there just like they do at other tracks that exhibit the same characteristics. Atco just simply gets the biggest gain of any of the tracks I know of by virtue of the nature of some of the freak artic high pressure that comes in...
Here, let me go the other way with it... And please, bear with me, I'm just having fun here.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/412609-afr-205s-big-cam-128mph.html#post3832083
The last time we took the car out (where a rear end didn't explode upon launch)
the DA was +2350 to +240060 - 1.5253
330 - 4.4827
1/8 - 6.9476
mph - 98.86
1000 - 9.0896
1/4 - 10.8822
mph - 128.28
So, if I want to go the other way and go extrapolate my performance...
10.8822 = 10.57532 at 0 DA. At -2400 that equates to a 10.2770
Did the car run that number. Nope.
Do I tell people it runs that number. Nope.
If it did run that number would I brag on it. Yup.
Again, this post isn't to take anything away from you car's performance. I just think we should all appreciate it for what it is...
03-27-2007, 01:16 AM
#67
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
The numbers I used for the correction factors above were based of the NHRA correction factors for Stock class cars. Again, that correction isn't absolute. it may be that your car would run a tenth or so quicker than my estimations. My point isn't to to use it as an absolute, simple to point out the effect good weather has on performance. I'll be the first to admit I try to go to teh track on good weather days (don't we all 
)....
)....
03-27-2007, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by WS6TransAm01
So come to Cecil, Atco, E-town and run your car... who i stopping you? Or maybe it's my fault that my parents moved to NJ and not NC, maybe because of that my times are not real.
03-27-2007, 07:39 AM
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J-Rod
Of coarse my car performs better in negative DA air. What I am trying to show is that if my car ran 10.47 in 0 to +30' of DA then the night it ran 10.41 was not -2500DA as some people claim in order to discredit my numbers. I am just trying to show that the air on the night I ran 10.41 was good, but it was not as good as people are trying to claim, and it was by no means "mineshaft air". According to your argument, if in fact Wednesday night was "mineshaft air" would not the difference be more then just 0.06 seconds when compared to sea level?
Of coarse my car performs better in negative DA air. What I am trying to show is that if my car ran 10.47 in 0 to +30' of DA then the night it ran 10.41 was not -2500DA as some people claim in order to discredit my numbers. I am just trying to show that the air on the night I ran 10.41 was good, but it was not as good as people are trying to claim, and it was by no means "mineshaft air". According to your argument, if in fact Wednesday night was "mineshaft air" would not the difference be more then just 0.06 seconds when compared to sea level?
03-27-2007, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by silverbeast
Look needle dick, i didnt say your times werent real. i said you will not repeat those runs in the air we race in 90% of the time. I wish our track had that kind of DA but it dosent. I also said congrats on your setup, but as for me coming up north and running my car...maybe i will get a chance to one day. If i do i will bet my car runs the best it ever has.good day
Sorry everyone, had to do that, was just too easy... don't forget, he started the insults.
Can't repeat those numbers in the air you run in hu? Well then it's a good thing I run in NJ. I'm sorry, next time I post a new best I will also include a disclaimer.
"These times can only be run in NJ, all those in the Midwest you're cars are actually faster but you run in worse air"
Will that work?
ETs are ETs, stop crying. Whaaaaaaaaa I live in the Midwest and run at 3000' Whaaaaaaaaaaaa not fair Alex lives in NJ, Whaaaaaaaaaa his times are unfair cause his tracks are better Whaaaa Whaaaa Whaaaa!
Just drop it...
03-27-2007, 08:12 AM
#72
ANYONE else in ANY part of the United States with ANY motor combo whether it's a nitrous, NA, supercharger setups or turbo runs a new best, record breaking number and there is never any mention of weather. Cartek on the other hand runs a good number in New Jersey and like clock work people bring up the weather playing a role, without fail.
When Greg Anderson ran multiple record breaking runs in Englishtown several years ago, you didn't hear the NHRA community saying "Well he really had the good air to thank".
When Greg Anderson ran multiple record breaking runs in Englishtown several years ago, you didn't hear the NHRA community saying "Well he really had the good air to thank".
03-27-2007, 08:55 AM
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My friend, I mean no disrepect, nor am I trying to discredit you or anybody else, nor do I have any dog in the "who builds the better heads/cam" fight. I'm just interested - nothing more, nothing less.
Bob
Bob
03-27-2007, 10:06 AM
#74
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Originally Posted by Big Mike
ANYONE else in ANY part of the United States with ANY motor combo whether it's a nitrous, NA, supercharger setups or turbo runs a new best, record breaking number and there is never any mention of weather. Cartek on the other hand runs a good number in New Jersey and like clock work people bring up the weather playing a role, without fail.
When Greg Anderson ran multiple record breaking runs in Englishtown several years ago, you didn't hear the NHRA community saying "Well he really had the good air to thank".
When Greg Anderson ran multiple record breaking runs in Englishtown several years ago, you didn't hear the NHRA community saying "Well he really had the good air to thank".
As for supercharged or nitrous cars, they are a little bit less affected as they make their own "atmosphere". The NHRA correction facotr by F/I is much less than for N/A for that reason.
C'mon guys this'd be no different that posting up uncorrected dyno sheets and saying you made more HP in package X,Y, or Z. Mike, to your point. If someone runs those numbers in the midwest where they in many cases don't even get to sea level, then yes, that is even more impressive. There has been suggestion on other sites we correct all timeslips to zero to see where folks really stack up for braggin rights. But, I think we all recognize that isn't feasible, and of course its just as easy to cheat there. So, we just wait for the winter times and new "bests".
WS6TransAm01 you DA comparison from -800 to +30 in my opinion is off because I think your "zero" is possibly miscalibrated. The relevant wether data seems to indicate your meter may be off to some extent. That is where you and I differ in our opinion.
03-27-2007, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
Congrats on your results.
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
But I will say that Negative DA has a huge effect on power output. Its simple physics. Best of luck to you on running even lower Et's....
That is track prep.. E-Town has the WORST track prep- unless it's the Supernationals or Pro-Mod events.
When you go to "No Problem" or "MIR" they actually prep the track and maintain it.. unlike E-Town.
There are soooo many variables every time you race.. especially at E-Town.. that the air can only help so much.
Congrats to Alex/Cartek on a phenomenal achievement in a N/A street/strip car.
03-27-2007, 10:40 AM
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I dont give a **** where you live or what times you run. I was just trying to help you understand the affects of good air verses bad air. Since you were downplaying as having no effect or not much at all. But you will find out yourself. We will see if your one of the dumbasses that post up in the middle of the summer saying " somethings wrong with my car, its slowed down 3-4 mph whats wrong??
03-27-2007, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by J-Rod
I don't think anyone be-grudges you for where you live. If I were you I'd brag about record times. But at the same time, I'd recognize it for what it is.
You're right... it's all air...
Originally Posted by J-Rod
There has been suggestion on other sites we correct all timeslips to zero to see where folks really stack up for braggin rights.
Originally Posted by J-Rod
WS6TransAm01 you DA comparison from -800 to +30 in my opinion is off because I think your "zero" is possibly miscalibrated. The relevant wether data seems to indicate your meter may be off to some extent. That is where you and I differ in our opinion.
03-27-2007, 01:00 PM
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Originally Posted by silverbeast
I dont give a **** where you live or what times you run. I was just trying to help you understand the affects of good air verses bad air. Since you were downplaying as having no effect or not much at all. But you will find out yourself. We will see if your one of the dumbasses that post up in the middle of the summer saying " somethings wrong with my car, its slowed down 3-4 mph whats wrong??
Oh thank you so much for helping me understand! And here I am waiting for the middle of August to run my best times. Silly me! Thank you so much for clearing that up for me, you are wise beyond your years...
Maybe if you helped yourself in your reading comprehension you would have seen that I was simply trying to show that the air on the night the car ran 10.41 could not have been 'that' good if I ran a 10.47 in what was basically sea level air.
But then again I guess its hard to see the computer screen with your boyfriends ******* stretched over your eyes. Roman-War-Helmet much?
