Ineffective Weight Transfer
04-01-2009, 08:25 AM
#21
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I have heard good things about the wolfe rear bar. Ill have to look around to see how hard it would be to relocate those shocks. Spring wise i can definitely take the isolators out. Still stock ones in there. I dont remember their being a tire height restriction. That is a good point to, plus i could probably use the additional gear it would give me.
Let me make some calls today and see what i can come up with. (not sure why i always start modding the car right as race season starts!)
Let me make some calls today and see what i can come up with. (not sure why i always start modding the car right as race season starts!)
04-01-2009, 09:42 AM
#23
IMO, there's nothing wrong with the spohn bar, that's the one I use.
you're getting decent weight transfer initially then it comes down. You have to be able to keep the weight on the rear tires for longer than you are.
Stock style suspension-no secret to how these work on an f body, hehe- you seem to have the parts you need less the relocation brackets so I would start with that.
For the Spohn bar both rear shocks have to be set the same for it to work properly.
Every car is different and yours is heavy-which doesn't help.
I kept he stock rear springs and just put airbags in them so I can get the exact stiffness I want.
My rears are set at 8 and my fronts vary from 3-10 depending on track conditions.
If it was my car and I would go out and buy a pair of the madman sya bars and get used to wheelieing that beast to get it to 60. Wanna be super safe (like me) get a set of wheelie bars util you get that suspension just right then take them off if you feel comfortable with the cars settings.
N/A and nitrous cars hit harder than an FI car initially so it's trickier to get them to leave right. The proressive controller will help but IMO that car is gonna have to get up there to leave right with the stock style suspension.
My car is consistently in the low 1.3x 60' range with a best of 1.29 and that's N/A.
With your power you should be able to best that no problem once you get it working right.
you're getting decent weight transfer initially then it comes down. You have to be able to keep the weight on the rear tires for longer than you are.
Stock style suspension-no secret to how these work on an f body, hehe- you seem to have the parts you need less the relocation brackets so I would start with that.
For the Spohn bar both rear shocks have to be set the same for it to work properly.
Every car is different and yours is heavy-which doesn't help.
I kept he stock rear springs and just put airbags in them so I can get the exact stiffness I want.
My rears are set at 8 and my fronts vary from 3-10 depending on track conditions.
If it was my car and I would go out and buy a pair of the madman sya bars and get used to wheelieing that beast to get it to 60. Wanna be super safe (like me) get a set of wheelie bars util you get that suspension just right then take them off if you feel comfortable with the cars settings.
N/A and nitrous cars hit harder than an FI car initially so it's trickier to get them to leave right. The proressive controller will help but IMO that car is gonna have to get up there to leave right with the stock style suspension.
My car is consistently in the low 1.3x 60' range with a best of 1.29 and that's N/A.
With your power you should be able to best that no problem once you get it working right.
04-08-2009, 05:51 AM
#25
Don't get too tied up in the 60 foot # because eventually you're gonna find that it's not the absolute end all deciding factor as to wether the car is working or not.
You want to be able to leave on all the power without blowing the tires off. If that means a 1.39 instead of a 1.35 trust me you are better off.
The wheelie's are cool and all but at the end of the day it doesn't win races, it's wasted energy lifting the car that should be moving it forward not upward. Best thing you can do is get the car moving forward as hard as possible, not upward.
You want to be able to leave on all the power without blowing the tires off. If that means a 1.39 instead of a 1.35 trust me you are better off.
The wheelie's are cool and all but at the end of the day it doesn't win races, it's wasted energy lifting the car that should be moving it forward not upward. Best thing you can do is get the car moving forward as hard as possible, not upward.
04-08-2009, 06:28 AM
#26
couldn't disagree more JL.
are you seriously saying that a 1.39 is better than a 1.35 for winning races??
wasted energy is better than wasted potential anyday.
to have a slower 60 ft because you can't get the suspension to work right doesn't make sense to me at all.
are you seriously saying that a 1.39 is better than a 1.35 for winning races??
wasted energy is better than wasted potential anyday.
to have a slower 60 ft because you can't get the suspension to work right doesn't make sense to me at all.
04-08-2009, 06:58 AM
#27
Just because a car 60 foots really hard doesn't mean that it's right for the rest of the track. I've seen cars 60 foot killer then blow the tires off 100 feet out.
You get too tied up in that 60 foot # and you will lose sight of the rest of the run. Get the converter gearing and whatnot all optimized for the 60 foot and it may not run the rest of the run right.
Nevermind that if you put all your focus on getting the car to 60 foot, then if the track goes away and the ability to 60 foot is gone, your et is gone with it.
60 foot times are important I don't argue that, but you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.... relying on that alone to get a car to ET is fine if you always have a perfect track, but the first time you have to race on a less then perfect track and the car can't 60 foot the same anymore, ya end up watching someone's tail lights the whole run.
You get too tied up in that 60 foot # and you will lose sight of the rest of the run. Get the converter gearing and whatnot all optimized for the 60 foot and it may not run the rest of the run right.
Nevermind that if you put all your focus on getting the car to 60 foot, then if the track goes away and the ability to 60 foot is gone, your et is gone with it.
60 foot times are important I don't argue that, but you don't want to put all your eggs in one basket.... relying on that alone to get a car to ET is fine if you always have a perfect track, but the first time you have to race on a less then perfect track and the car can't 60 foot the same anymore, ya end up watching someone's tail lights the whole run.
04-08-2009, 07:05 AM
#28
Perfect example of what I am talking about was my experience last year after I swapped converters. Old converter would 60 foot in the 1.35 to 1.32 range on the back tires, and the car would ET a 9.9 @ 137. Hell I think with a little more work it might have gotten to a 1.2x Good right?
I swapped converters, car went to 1.40 to 1.37 60 foots, should have killed the ET right? Wrong. Car started running 9.6 to 9.5 @ 142. Worse 60 foot by a on average .05 to .08, ET's .2 and 5 mph faster.
Having everything happen in the first 60 feet, can kill the rest of the run enough to hurt performance. Then when the track isn't there to support that 60 foot like I have seen happen on more then one occasion the cars that 60 foot really hard end up suffering alot harder then cars that are decent 60 footers but are set up right for the rest of the track.
The only time I can see the 60 foot being the absolute deciding factor is on very limited on power or hp/weight ratio.
I swapped converters, car went to 1.40 to 1.37 60 foots, should have killed the ET right? Wrong. Car started running 9.6 to 9.5 @ 142. Worse 60 foot by a on average .05 to .08, ET's .2 and 5 mph faster.
Having everything happen in the first 60 feet, can kill the rest of the run enough to hurt performance. Then when the track isn't there to support that 60 foot like I have seen happen on more then one occasion the cars that 60 foot really hard end up suffering alot harder then cars that are decent 60 footers but are set up right for the rest of the track.
The only time I can see the 60 foot being the absolute deciding factor is on very limited on power or hp/weight ratio.
04-08-2009, 07:35 AM
#29
It's about getting that power to the track the most effective and efficent way possible. Once the driveline, and power is determined a given race car may go thought 4-5 tire changes and 6-7 converter swaps and gear changes and countless suspension adjusments before "dialing" it in. Then Adjusting all that to the track conditions of the day is a key component to winning.
At this power level there is no "Set it and Forget it!"
At this power level there is no "Set it and Forget it!"
04-08-2009, 08:00 AM
#30
Nobody said the 60' is the absolute deciding factor JL and everyone depending on who they are racing may or may not be very limited on power, hp/ weight ratio-what are we talkin' about here?
All the stocker racers that are so evenly matched hp/weight wise and have so many restrictions have to make the most of their run, that's why they leave and 60' like they do. If they left soft, they would lose every time.
Just because you made a vert swap and it changed the events in your run doesn't mean it's optimal. Slower 60' will translate to higher trap speeds all by itself and maybe the newer vert was more efficient giving you that better et mph, doesn't mean that the newer vert wouldn't like a bit more of a hit out of the gate to optimize the vert in the beginning of the run and get to to 60' better.
Yes if you 60' hard you may get screwed if the track goes away, it's happened to me, racing against you-but that's my fault for not paying more attention to the track conditions and the changes it was going through during the day. I just don't take racing that seriously-rather spend the day hanging out and race in between, hehe.
Anyway running a slower 60' is not better unless the track is going away and you don't need the 60' to beat the guy next to you, if you DO need the 60' to beat or stay close to the guy in the next lane then you better have it working right, nothing worse than your car leaving like a little girl off to school and losing the race because you don't have your sh*t right.
All the stocker racers that are so evenly matched hp/weight wise and have so many restrictions have to make the most of their run, that's why they leave and 60' like they do. If they left soft, they would lose every time.
Just because you made a vert swap and it changed the events in your run doesn't mean it's optimal. Slower 60' will translate to higher trap speeds all by itself and maybe the newer vert was more efficient giving you that better et mph, doesn't mean that the newer vert wouldn't like a bit more of a hit out of the gate to optimize the vert in the beginning of the run and get to to 60' better.
Yes if you 60' hard you may get screwed if the track goes away, it's happened to me, racing against you-but that's my fault for not paying more attention to the track conditions and the changes it was going through during the day. I just don't take racing that seriously-rather spend the day hanging out and race in between, hehe.
Anyway running a slower 60' is not better unless the track is going away and you don't need the 60' to beat the guy next to you, if you DO need the 60' to beat or stay close to the guy in the next lane then you better have it working right, nothing worse than your car leaving like a little girl off to school and losing the race because you don't have your sh*t right.
04-08-2009, 08:21 AM
#31
I hear where you're coming from and you have valid points... but trust me getting the car to run at an absolute optimum isn't always pratical or possible, a compromise sometimes has to be made. Hell a 6 speed lenco tranny so the motor's in the best possible 300 rpm the whole track would be great, but not pratical all the time. Sometimes you have to make a sacrifice somewhere to get everthing else perfect. If that means losing a little for 60 feet and gaining the other 1260, I'd be aiming to get the larger portion right.
Hell last time we ran I was worse off for the forst 60 then normal by about .05, but my sled doesn't depend on that portion of the track. Sure it has to run it like everyone else's car, but if that's off a touch due to the track, the car doesn't care. Even with the 60 being weaker that day, the et and mph were both still as good as they've been.
That being said.. 60 foot important yes, even moreso with 1/8th mile racing, but when ya have a full 1/4 to leg it out I'd be looking to make sure you optimize the biggest portion of the track you can.
Hell last time we ran I was worse off for the forst 60 then normal by about .05, but my sled doesn't depend on that portion of the track. Sure it has to run it like everyone else's car, but if that's off a touch due to the track, the car doesn't care. Even with the 60 being weaker that day, the et and mph were both still as good as they've been.
That being said.. 60 foot important yes, even moreso with 1/8th mile racing, but when ya have a full 1/4 to leg it out I'd be looking to make sure you optimize the biggest portion of the track you can.
04-08-2009, 08:29 PM
#34
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Don't mean to threadjack, but your car is sick. I've ran "against" you at gateway during test & tune or sscs one night when I had my white z28. When we staged and I saw you had a chute I was thinking ****, this sucks.. haha Then something happened in your launch and you backed out and didn't run it out hard and my buddy thought my bolt-on Z28 was just simply amazing for "taking down" a chuted car!
Little did he know you'd have had me beat by 2-3 seconds on a good run which I tried to explain but he's not really a car guy so he didn't understand...
Good luck getting the car dialed in, I'll be down there often in my white 99 formula (full bolt ons) this year!
Little did he know you'd have had me beat by 2-3 seconds on a good run which I tried to explain but he's not really a car guy so he didn't understand...
Good luck getting the car dialed in, I'll be down there often in my white 99 formula (full bolt ons) this year!
04-16-2009, 10:25 AM
#36
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Ok well friday got rained out, but i made some passes last night. Basically dropped the transbrake to 4000 and the tire pressure to 11 cold. The nitrous shot was progressed from 68% to 100%.
ET on the first run was 9.74@137.67 with a 60 of 1.40
ET on the second run was 9.77@137.57 with a 60 of 1.42
Fairly consistent but the car was very rich 10.0 (lowest the WB reads)
Video below is from inside the car. I dont have any external video. While mainly diagnostic irrelevant. I still get a kick out of it.
Still working on it a bit, but thanks to you guys this is a new record for the car.
Photo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fast-ta/3447792558/
Video
www.fast-ta.org/xvideos/2009/4152009.wmv
ET on the first run was 9.74@137.67 with a 60 of 1.40
ET on the second run was 9.77@137.57 with a 60 of 1.42
Fairly consistent but the car was very rich 10.0 (lowest the WB reads)
Video below is from inside the car. I dont have any external video. While mainly diagnostic irrelevant. I still get a kick out of it.
Still working on it a bit, but thanks to you guys this is a new record for the car.
Photo
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fast-ta/3447792558/
Video
www.fast-ta.org/xvideos/2009/4152009.wmv
Last edited by White2000TA; 04-16-2009 at 11:05 AM.
04-16-2009, 11:11 AM
#38
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Corrected the video link. It now shows both full runs
http://www.fast-ta.com/xvideos/2009/4152009.wmv
http://www.fast-ta.com/xvideos/2009/4152009.wmv
