Mig welding a chromoly cage? is it against nhra rules?
02-23-2012, 07:42 AM
#21
That is one of the worst looking MIG welds I have seen on anything... and they sent you a part that looked like that? Jesus that's retarded.
Next time I'm in the garage I will take a picture of some of the recent stuff I've done. I'm not a pro by any means but it looks a hell of alot better then that snot pile. If you can, try to get a better picture of that part the thing is too small to really show the mess there.
The rear end housing you did looks good to me fwiw, that's about as good as I've been able to do up to this point and I know my work is sound.
Next time I'm in the garage I will take a picture of some of the recent stuff I've done. I'm not a pro by any means but it looks a hell of alot better then that snot pile. If you can, try to get a better picture of that part the thing is too small to really show the mess there.
The rear end housing you did looks good to me fwiw, that's about as good as I've been able to do up to this point and I know my work is sound.
02-23-2012, 07:34 PM
#22
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for less then 10lbs on a 6-8pt cage/bar, why spend the money for CM? I understand every pound counts..but your almost doubling costs. I mainly do arc welding at work, but i also do alot of mig welding when i dont feel like being showered with splatter and you would be amazed out how some awesome looking mig welds dont burn in for crap.
Thats another thing...whats the reasoning behind no arc welding for roll cages...I know it cant be a strength issue. Just something ive wondered, done a lil research but no concrete answer
Thats another thing...whats the reasoning behind no arc welding for roll cages...I know it cant be a strength issue. Just something ive wondered, done a lil research but no concrete answer
Slag entrapment and lack of knowledge would be my guess.
Depending on the material that the cage is made from. A mild steel cage could be easily and safely made from Arc welding, E-6010 and E-6011 are the 2 best rods for full penetration but they do not have a smooth pretty appearance because the are a Fast Freeze electrode. Fast Freeze rods are used for a Root pass on pipe to work a Key Hole and then a Iron based Fill Freeze rod like E-6013 or E-7018 are used for the cover passes. You could use 6013 for a cover pass on a cage.
Chromoly should be Tig welded because of the high risk of slag entrapment with an arc weld. If you are a professionally trained welder there is nothing wrong with Mig welding Chromoly tubing.
I don't see anything wrong with a cage made out of high strength Aluminum square tubing for cars 5 seconds or slower. Thickness and Diameter along with grade of Aluminum would have to be considered, but if its safe enough for an airplane it should be ok for those kind of speeds.
Don't kid yourself, if your going 5 seconds or faster in a quarter mile the only thing that's going to save your *** in a crash is being tight with Jesus.
The NRHA is probably thinking more about liability than safety that's why they have some of these rules.
02-23-2012, 09:12 PM
#23
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I know my car has only gone 6.50's, and will never get near 5 seconds,
but there is no way in hell I would get in an aluminum chassis car!!
I've seen way too many stress cracks & failures from vibrations & flexing to strap my *** in there!!
.
I know my car has only gone 6.50's, and will never get near 5 seconds,
but there is no way in hell I would get in an aluminum chassis car!!
I've seen way too many stress cracks & failures from vibrations & flexing to strap my *** in there!!
.
02-23-2012, 09:48 PM
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Slag entrapment and lack of knowledge would be my guess.
Depending on the material that the cage is made from. A mild steel cage could be easily and safely made from Arc welding, E-6010 and E-6011 are the 2 best rods for full penetration but they do not have a smooth pretty appearance because the are a Fast Freeze electrode. Fast Freeze rods are used for a Root pass on pipe to work a Key Hole and then a Iron based Fill Freeze rod like E-6013 or E-7018 are used for the cover passes. You could use 6013 for a cover pass on a cage.
Chromoly should be Tig welded because of the high risk of slag entrapment with an arc weld. If you are a professionally trained welder there is nothing wrong with Mig welding Chromoly tubing.
I don't see anything wrong with a cage made out of high strength Aluminum square tubing for cars 5 seconds or slower. Thickness and Diameter along with grade of Aluminum would have to be considered, but if its safe enough for an airplane it should be ok for those kind of speeds.
Don't kid yourself, if your going 5 seconds or faster in a quarter mile the only thing that's going to save your *** in a crash is being tight with Jesus.
The NRHA is probably thinking more about liability than safety that's why they have some of these rules.
Depending on the material that the cage is made from. A mild steel cage could be easily and safely made from Arc welding, E-6010 and E-6011 are the 2 best rods for full penetration but they do not have a smooth pretty appearance because the are a Fast Freeze electrode. Fast Freeze rods are used for a Root pass on pipe to work a Key Hole and then a Iron based Fill Freeze rod like E-6013 or E-7018 are used for the cover passes. You could use 6013 for a cover pass on a cage.
Chromoly should be Tig welded because of the high risk of slag entrapment with an arc weld. If you are a professionally trained welder there is nothing wrong with Mig welding Chromoly tubing.
I don't see anything wrong with a cage made out of high strength Aluminum square tubing for cars 5 seconds or slower. Thickness and Diameter along with grade of Aluminum would have to be considered, but if its safe enough for an airplane it should be ok for those kind of speeds.
Don't kid yourself, if your going 5 seconds or faster in a quarter mile the only thing that's going to save your *** in a crash is being tight with Jesus.
The NRHA is probably thinking more about liability than safety that's why they have some of these rules.
02-24-2012, 01:51 AM
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Just the cage, not the chassis.
02-24-2012, 02:47 AM
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On a 5-6 second car, the cage is the chassis.
Look how many bars we have on these things, and my car is old.
I'm 5 seconds legal, and there is no way to mix & match aluminum with the moly frame rails??
I have X's everywhere, and don't forget on these cars, the trans comes out the door, the floor has no open area.
.
On a 5-6 second car, the cage is the chassis.
Look how many bars we have on these things, and my car is old.
I'm 5 seconds legal, and there is no way to mix & match aluminum with the moly frame rails??
I have X's everywhere, and don't forget on these cars, the trans comes out the door, the floor has no open area.
.
02-24-2012, 05:49 AM
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On a 5-6 second car, the cage is the chassis.
Look how many bars we have on these things, and my car is old.
I'm 5 seconds legal, and there is no way to mix & match aluminum with the moly frame rails??
I have X's everywhere, and don't forget on these cars, the trans comes out the door, the floor has no open area.
.
On a 5-6 second car, the cage is the chassis.
Look how many bars we have on these things, and my car is old.
I'm 5 seconds legal, and there is no way to mix & match aluminum with the moly frame rails??
I have X's everywhere, and don't forget on these cars, the trans comes out the door, the floor has no open area.
.
Any car with a separate cage say 7 seconds or slower would be safe then as long as the shop that makes it is a professional welding shop.
If the engineering is done right you can have a full chassis car made out of Aluminum that would be as safe as steel. Fighter jets and many other planes use high grade Aluminum for protection. It would cost a lot and the shop that does it would have to be a top notch welding operation.
Look at what the boys at Pfadt do with Aluminum suspensions. If they built a full chassis Aluminum car I would drive it.
02-24-2012, 06:54 AM
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To my knowledge air frames are meant to stay together flying, NOT crashing! I think if you KNOW you are going to crash an airplane it's highly recomended that you jump your *** out with a parachute straped to you. I'm not saying Aluminum isn't strong but comparing an air frame to a rollcage is apples to oranges. Now welding/brazing technics used to build air frames are more than good enough for roll cage construction IMO.
02-24-2012, 08:00 AM
#29
No hope I would suggest that you stay out of this conversation your lack of real world experience with anything involving race cars is very apparent.
Alum, is for engine blocks and heads. and other fabricated powertrain components..... NOT for safety equipment in a race car!
The parts that Pfadt make for suspension has nothing to do with rollcage safety either fwiw, there are plenty of alum chassis cars out there but they are NOT sfi cert'd for the speeds that we are talking about here...
Please pick up an NHRA handbook, and do some material strength reading.... it will probably enlighten you alot.
Alum, is for engine blocks and heads. and other fabricated powertrain components..... NOT for safety equipment in a race car!
The parts that Pfadt make for suspension has nothing to do with rollcage safety either fwiw, there are plenty of alum chassis cars out there but they are NOT sfi cert'd for the speeds that we are talking about here...
Please pick up an NHRA handbook, and do some material strength reading.... it will probably enlighten you alot.
02-24-2012, 10:09 AM
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Ditto.
That's why they use carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum more and more to save weight,
because the cage, chassis system is NOT where you want to dick around!!!
I sit inside a cage, inside a cage, and the rest of the car can crumble or break away,
but I still have a fighting chance surrounded by steel!!
I have the top style chassis, except my F/C cage is twice as deep, I sit way back with my butt
next to the rear tub.
I also have more bars then required as do most of the guys I race with.
As you can see, there is supports & reinforcements for every bar,
in a design that has many many years of testing & crashing to learn by!!
http://www.ihra.com/downloads/pdf/co...rification.pdf
.
Ditto.
That's why they use carbon fiber, titanium, aluminum more and more to save weight,
because the cage, chassis system is NOT where you want to dick around!!!
I sit inside a cage, inside a cage, and the rest of the car can crumble or break away,
but I still have a fighting chance surrounded by steel!!
I have the top style chassis, except my F/C cage is twice as deep, I sit way back with my butt
next to the rear tub.
I also have more bars then required as do most of the guys I race with.
As you can see, there is supports & reinforcements for every bar,
in a design that has many many years of testing & crashing to learn by!!
http://www.ihra.com/downloads/pdf/co...rification.pdf
.
02-24-2012, 11:55 AM
#31
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No hope I would suggest that you stay out of this conversation your lack of real world experience with anything involving race cars is very apparent.
Alum, is for engine blocks and heads. and other fabricated powertrain components..... NOT for safety equipment in a race car!
The parts that Pfadt make for suspension has nothing to do with rollcage safety either fwiw, there are plenty of alum chassis cars out there but they are NOT sfi cert'd for the speeds that we are talking about here...
Please pick up an NHRA handbook, and do some material strength reading.... it will probably enlighten you alot.
Alum, is for engine blocks and heads. and other fabricated powertrain components..... NOT for safety equipment in a race car!
The parts that Pfadt make for suspension has nothing to do with rollcage safety either fwiw, there are plenty of alum chassis cars out there but they are NOT sfi cert'd for the speeds that we are talking about here...
Please pick up an NHRA handbook, and do some material strength reading.... it will probably enlighten you alot.
Ok I'll stay out of the conversation because I do not have any experience building crash cages.
But I do have 25 years experience with welding, metallurgy and stress testing every alloy and metal there is so trust me its your lack of knowledge that leads you to think steel is stronger than some Aluminum alloys. Especially how thin the metal is in these crash cages.
The last 3 responses is your answer to why arc welding or anything else new is not acceptable. Closed minded to change.
I seem to remember the same type of responses when the Aluminum engines first came out.
I'm out of this one...Bye
02-24-2012, 01:38 PM
#32
All the lab testing in the world won't give you real world experience on how parts, and cars stand up to disasters and the rigor's of racing. Don't take this the wrong way, but engineer's commonly suffer from this same issue, you have alot of knowledge no doubt, but you don't know how to apply it to something that's already proven and working, therefore want to redo the whole thing from scratch. I fight with engineer's on this stuff all the time, they always want to reinvent the wheel becuase they read somewhere that there's a better way to do it, but don't have the practical experience to understand why what's currently in practice and why it works.
You can read in a book all about material tensile strength and every other structural aspect of a material, but it's not going to tell you if you can or can not use the material. It just tells you the design has to take something into account.
I've worked in a metrology lab for several years, and know a thing or 2 about materials, and have a bit of aerospace experience as well... I'm well aware of how "strong" aluminum can be, but the weight of the required amount of material to stand up to the same type of blow is not even close to practical.
The design and what can be made from 4130 material as well as it's weight is why it is the chosen material for the sfi certification. SFI foundation has done thier homework, and what they're telling racers is the most practical, cost effective and safest thing that they can come up with.
The welding, as previously stated I think they chose to only accept TIG welding due to the level of experience someone has to have to do it properly. It prevents the back yard hack's from putting stuff together in a questionalbe manner and having it get thru tech, only to fail in a worst case scenario.
Sure an arc, Mig, Tig as well as a oxy-act. weld all can be a string way of joining 2 metals. But, one is very hard to hide bad material fitment, and requires a little more skill...
You can read in a book all about material tensile strength and every other structural aspect of a material, but it's not going to tell you if you can or can not use the material. It just tells you the design has to take something into account.
I've worked in a metrology lab for several years, and know a thing or 2 about materials, and have a bit of aerospace experience as well... I'm well aware of how "strong" aluminum can be, but the weight of the required amount of material to stand up to the same type of blow is not even close to practical.
The design and what can be made from 4130 material as well as it's weight is why it is the chosen material for the sfi certification. SFI foundation has done thier homework, and what they're telling racers is the most practical, cost effective and safest thing that they can come up with.
The welding, as previously stated I think they chose to only accept TIG welding due to the level of experience someone has to have to do it properly. It prevents the back yard hack's from putting stuff together in a questionalbe manner and having it get thru tech, only to fail in a worst case scenario.
Sure an arc, Mig, Tig as well as a oxy-act. weld all can be a string way of joining 2 metals. But, one is very hard to hide bad material fitment, and requires a little more skill...
02-24-2012, 02:56 PM
#33
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All opinions are welcome in my book, and I learn new things everyday.
I've also seen some weird crap in this business.
Bars ripped apart, welds split, unbreakable this, and unbreakable that, BREAK??
Again, I'm not the fastest guy in the world, and even on my slow junk, I've had steel fail.
Hell, I get stress fractures in places that don't have any stress on them.
I'm sorry, but most of the guys here don't know about tire shake and 1.00 60' abuse on their cars.
I've had my bell rung when we had the car set up way off, and I didn't even make it 50'.
I just had my car in the shop getting stuff fixed that ripped apart.
So again, there is no frigging way I'm getting into anything with aluminum surrounding me!!
Besides, how can they stitch it together when some is aluminum and some is moly??
I've never been a fan of bolt in cages!!
.
All opinions are welcome in my book, and I learn new things everyday.
I've also seen some weird crap in this business.
Bars ripped apart, welds split, unbreakable this, and unbreakable that, BREAK??
Again, I'm not the fastest guy in the world, and even on my slow junk, I've had steel fail.
Hell, I get stress fractures in places that don't have any stress on them.
I'm sorry, but most of the guys here don't know about tire shake and 1.00 60' abuse on their cars.
I've had my bell rung when we had the car set up way off, and I didn't even make it 50'.
I just had my car in the shop getting stuff fixed that ripped apart.
So again, there is no frigging way I'm getting into anything with aluminum surrounding me!!
Besides, how can they stitch it together when some is aluminum and some is moly??
I've never been a fan of bolt in cages!!
.
02-24-2012, 03:29 PM
#34
If you're going to bolt the cage in you mine as well not even bother putting it in IMO, the bolts used won't hold up to what the bar should hold up to in a bad crash I'm sure of that.
1.0 60 foot times can tear some serious stuff up, and damage just about anything.
And, in the same thinking that you're going by I did a 25.3 for a car that will probably only see bottom 8's when it's done, I may eventually try to push it to that 7.99 pass just so I can say I did it but honeslty as long as the car repeats on 8.50 I don't really care if it goes any faster.
100% overkill in all aspects of needed safety but I will feel good knowing if something happens I will probably walk away... and if I have to sell the car, it will be worth a ton more as well.
1.0 60 foot times can tear some serious stuff up, and damage just about anything.
And, in the same thinking that you're going by I did a 25.3 for a car that will probably only see bottom 8's when it's done, I may eventually try to push it to that 7.99 pass just so I can say I did it but honeslty as long as the car repeats on 8.50 I don't really care if it goes any faster.
100% overkill in all aspects of needed safety but I will feel good knowing if something happens I will probably walk away... and if I have to sell the car, it will be worth a ton more as well.
02-24-2012, 06:44 PM
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I agree 100%, like I said, how does this guy think they can mix and match an aluminum cage with moly frame rails, bolts???
I have a heavy car, so be it, I like having an extra bar in the roof, I like having an extra bar in my F/C cage, more bars in the floor etc etc.
Yes I still bitch about being heavy, but in the long run, it's better to be safe then sorry!!!
Good luck on a 7.99, if you get close, and need just a little more, I'll let you draft off me
.
I agree 100%, like I said, how does this guy think they can mix and match an aluminum cage with moly frame rails, bolts???
I have a heavy car, so be it, I like having an extra bar in the roof, I like having an extra bar in my F/C cage, more bars in the floor etc etc.
Yes I still bitch about being heavy, but in the long run, it's better to be safe then sorry!!!
Good luck on a 7.99, if you get close, and need just a little more, I'll let you draft off me
.
02-25-2012, 12:17 AM
#36
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All the lab testing in the world won't give you real world experience on how parts, and cars stand up to disasters and the rigor's of racing. Don't take this the wrong way, but engineer's commonly suffer from this same issue, you have alot of knowledge no doubt, but you don't know how to apply it to something that's already proven and working, therefore want to redo the whole thing from scratch. I fight with engineer's on this stuff all the time, they always want to reinvent the wheel becuase they read somewhere that there's a better way to do it, but don't have the practical experience to understand why what's currently in practice and why it works.
You can read in a book all about material tensile strength and every other structural aspect of a material, but it's not going to tell you if you can or can not use the material. It just tells you the design has to take something into account.
I've worked in a metrology lab for several years, and know a thing or 2 about materials, and have a bit of aerospace experience as well... I'm well aware of how "strong" aluminum can be, but the weight of the required amount of material to stand up to the same type of blow is not even close to practical.
The design and what can be made from 4130 material as well as it's weight is why it is the chosen material for the sfi certification. SFI foundation has done thier homework, and what they're telling racers is the most practical, cost effective and safest thing that they can come up with.
The welding, as previously stated I think they chose to only accept TIG welding due to the level of experience someone has to have to do it properly. It prevents the back yard hack's from putting stuff together in a questionalbe manner and having it get thru tech, only to fail in a worst case scenario.
Sure an arc, Mig, Tig as well as a oxy-act. weld all can be a string way of joining 2 metals. But, one is very hard to hide bad material fitment, and requires a little more skill...
You can read in a book all about material tensile strength and every other structural aspect of a material, but it's not going to tell you if you can or can not use the material. It just tells you the design has to take something into account.
I've worked in a metrology lab for several years, and know a thing or 2 about materials, and have a bit of aerospace experience as well... I'm well aware of how "strong" aluminum can be, but the weight of the required amount of material to stand up to the same type of blow is not even close to practical.
The design and what can be made from 4130 material as well as it's weight is why it is the chosen material for the sfi certification. SFI foundation has done thier homework, and what they're telling racers is the most practical, cost effective and safest thing that they can come up with.
The welding, as previously stated I think they chose to only accept TIG welding due to the level of experience someone has to have to do it properly. It prevents the back yard hack's from putting stuff together in a questionalbe manner and having it get thru tech, only to fail in a worst case scenario.
Sure an arc, Mig, Tig as well as a oxy-act. weld all can be a string way of joining 2 metals. But, one is very hard to hide bad material fitment, and requires a little more skill...
I posted on this thread because the OP wanted to know why the NHRA didn't allow Mig welded cages. I think I answered that, I never pretended to know anything about the cages or the stresses they are subjected to. But if you feel safe in a cage because its made from a material your familiar with then stick to it.
If the conversation is going to go in a direction for a lighter better cage then your going to have to "reinvent the wheel". Chromoly is kind of Barney Rubble technology, think 6061-T6 or 7075-T6 Aluminum in a Honeycomb welded support system.
I might be way out of line with this one so please don't jump all over me for it, but why would you want to be in a cage that is welded to a frame that is out of control and probably on fire? I have much more experience with boat racing than I do with car racing and we have had break away cockpits for years. The boat is smashed into little pieces but your safe in the cockpit because it separates from the boat at impact. I have been in one those crashes myself and other than underwear full of poop and 2 broken collar bones I was fine.
Shear bolts on a cage with a parachute that deploys on impact with a drag car could work the same way. Just a thought. Sometimes fresh eyes can look at things in a different way.
Last edited by No Hope; 02-25-2012 at 12:45 AM.
02-25-2012, 05:41 AM
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Actually they have looked into capsules, but the problem is there is a giant 8000 HP fire breathing monster between the driver and the track.
On a short wheel base car, I don't see how it can work with the layout of a body, drivetrain, giant slicks etc etc.
Like I said, the cage is the chassis, so if you remove all the strength, rigidness, now the car either tears itself apart, or won't handle the HP.
Guys have tried new designs. Including new materials, titanium, carbon fiber, and probably aluminum, and they keep coming back to moly for some reason??
Remember, huge difference in real world application, and what should work on paper.
This is me with my small motor, 1150-1200 HP and 1.00's 60' on the back wheels for about 55'.
I also have a 2000 plus HP combination, that is a torque monster.
Multiple that by 50-100 runs per year and you'll understand why I want STEEL!!!
Now look at guys like this, I will bet the farm, they will never trust anything else either??
.
Actually they have looked into capsules, but the problem is there is a giant 8000 HP fire breathing monster between the driver and the track.
On a short wheel base car, I don't see how it can work with the layout of a body, drivetrain, giant slicks etc etc.
Like I said, the cage is the chassis, so if you remove all the strength, rigidness, now the car either tears itself apart, or won't handle the HP.
Guys have tried new designs. Including new materials, titanium, carbon fiber, and probably aluminum, and they keep coming back to moly for some reason??
Remember, huge difference in real world application, and what should work on paper.
This is me with my small motor, 1150-1200 HP and 1.00's 60' on the back wheels for about 55'.
I also have a 2000 plus HP combination, that is a torque monster.
Multiple that by 50-100 runs per year and you'll understand why I want STEEL!!!
Now look at guys like this, I will bet the farm, they will never trust anything else either??
.
02-25-2012, 08:17 PM
#39
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Broken wheelie bar! Have you guys seen Mike Christiansen (not of spelling) roll his red Camaro about 100' off the line because of a broken wheelie bar tab? As far as crashes go it was pretty funny
02-26-2012, 11:25 AM
#40
Wouldn't chromoly be even lighter when used in a 10point cage being as a 10pt only requires 1 5/8 .083 wall where an 8 point or less requires 1 3/4 .083 wall. DOM mild steel requires 1 3/4 .120 wall at 8 point or less and 1 5/8 .120 at 10point or more. Regular mild steel requires the .134 wall in 8 point or less?
So wouldn't the weight differences be substantially more when talking about a moly 10pt vs a mild steel.
Seriously trying to figure this out. S&W advertises a 38% difference between .83 wall moly and mild steel.
So wouldn't the weight differences be substantially more when talking about a moly 10pt vs a mild steel.
Seriously trying to figure this out. S&W advertises a 38% difference between .83 wall moly and mild steel.