[quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>Hmmm, I ran EFI 14 at NMCA Bowling Green this year and hit the brakes pretty hard every pass (car was capable of 13.80's at the time). I made it to the semi-finals and no one ever said a word to me.

I think every rule you put on this class is going to result in less and less participation. At the point you've got it to now, it's going to be more trouble enforcing than it's worth. Maybe you should just go back to the heads-up format plan and worry about teching "carefully placed" mods.

I hope they still keep a bracket class, though.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well if you read the NMCA rule book sections for the EFI classes it states that breaking before the finish is not allowed and will disqualify you. I guess you got lucky because they weren't checking. Regardless, min trap speed for each index will catch that if it is a realistic number.

Besides I still think that my rules are 100000% easier to enforce that trying to determine if someones heads have been 'touched' or if they are running a 'cheater' cam, wouldn't you agree? Or would you rather have your street car engine torn down at the track from a protest?

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>The more we discuss the stipulations to the "bolt-on" class the more I'm in favor of a few index classes for everyone to enter, no matter what the mods are. You don't have to hit the brakes to let off. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> I've done it a thousand times, and so has every other bracket racer. If the minimum required MPH is 110 and I've been running 115 all day, then that gives me 5 MPH to play with. You can make all of the rules you want, but you will not stop sandbagging 100%. You can make it harder, but you can't eliminate it without having an "official" push the pedal for me. <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Trevor, if you are good enough to sandbag with the trap speed minimums I come up with for each class, then more power to ya buddy. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>
I think every rule you put on this class is going to result in less and less participation. At the point you've got it to now, it's going to be more trouble enforcing than it's worth. Maybe you should just go back to the heads-up format plan and worry about teching "carefully placed" mods.

I hope they still keep a bracket class, though.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You just hit the nail on the head. The class sounds great, until you start working out the details. <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

We have no plans to ditch the brackets. <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Chris

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>Hmmm, I ran EFI 14 at NMCA Bowling Green this year and hit the brakes pretty hard every pass (car was capable of 13.80's at the time). I made it to the semi-finals and no one ever said a word to me.

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kristi, I think they know better than to say something to you. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by cendres:
<strong>

You just hit the nail on the head. The class sounds great, until you start working out the details. <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

We have no plans to ditch the brackets. <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

Chris</strong><hr></blockquote>

Chris, I just don't get everyone's dissatisfaction with my index plan.

It is no different at all from NMCA EFI 11,12, and 13 index brackets. The only difference is, I separate them into .5 sec indexes instead of 1 sec. indexes to keep racing close and make cheating less effective.

Then the index winners run each other in an indexed bracket race. WTF is so hard about this????? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by cendres:
<strong>We would do this in hopes of getting the less-modified guys out of the stands or brackets and racing heads up.</strong><hr></blockquote>
All of the stipulations won't pull the less modified guys out of the brackets. I'll most likely stay in the bracket class unless something like an index comes along. I honestly don't want to mess with teardowns, and I'm not going to jump into a class that tells me I can't lift. I'm not out to sandbag at all; I run my race and don't mess with my opponent until the end of the track. If I have a 1+ cars on the guy next to me, then I'll definitely back-pedal.
SO, to make a long story short, the point of Chris' thread is to get some racers out of the stands and bracket class.
As for your three separate index plans, how does that solve anything for "illegal" mods??? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>

 

I was by FAR not the only person doing it, but maybe they too figured out that you can't run what is essentially a BRACKET RACE (no matter how you package it) and truly enforce "no lifting" rules. Or they figured out that people hate to have a million rules on what should be an entry-level class for those of us who can't spend thousands and thousands of dollars to be competitive in heads-up.
Really, do whatever you want, but neither of us is going to change the other's mind and I will not be participating in an indexed racing class that tells me I have to leave my success up to dumb luck. If they have brackets, I will race. If not, I will spectate. So there's probably no sense continuing this argument with me anyway.

 

I have absolutely 0% respect for racers who lift. If you want to lift, stay in the brackets where you 'sand-baggers' belong.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>If we had enough cars we could run bolt-on 11.49 and quicker class ('outlaw bolt-on' <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ), bolt-on 11.99 to 11.50 class and bolt-on 12.50 to 12.00 class (for Kristi <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> ). Within those index's everyone can run heads up. The winners of those index classes could then race each other with a .5 sec handicap or 1.0 sec handicap depending on which class winner is racing which class winner. Sort of a bracket race between index class winners for bragging rights.

I think that would keep the issue of a teardown to a minimum.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

I like this idea. Hey, if this "bolt on" class gets off the ground be sure to post it. I would be VERY interested.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>
As for your three separate index plans, how does that solve anything for "illegal" mods??? <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Trevor,

As I pointed out before, and so did Kristi, indexing does not eliminate cheating, it mitigates the advantages of cheating on your engine. It puts people on a more even playing field regardless of what they have done to their engine or car.

If you want strict bolt-on class racing without indexes, then you will need a teardown to keep people from cheating and winning. Simple as that.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>I was by FAR not the only person doing it, but maybe they too figured out that you can't run what is essentially a BRACKET RACE (no matter how you package it) and truly enforce "no lifting" rules. Or they figured out that people hate to have a million rules on what should be an entry-level class for those of us who can't spend thousands and thousands of dollars to be competitive in heads-up.
Really, do whatever you want, but neither of us is going to change the other's mind and I will not be participating in an indexed racing class that tells me I have to leave my success up to dumb luck. If they have brackets, I will race. If not, I will spectate. So there's probably no sense continuing this argument with me anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Kristi, explain to me where dumb luck has any part whatsoever in being able to build and drive a car to the bottom of an index without breaking out or lifting. Sounds like a lot of skill involved to me.

If you noticed at Beach Bend, I ran a 12.20 on my 12.20 dial in without any lifting whatsoever. My only downfall was getting a bit to anxious and red-lighting.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>I have absolutely 0% respect for racers who lift. If you want to lift, stay in the brackets where you 'sand-baggers' belong.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You obviously don't understand the point of lifting. Sandbagging is intentional! It's all about getting to the next round. I let off quite a few times in BG because I had the holeshot and room to play on the end. I could run it out, but why would I chance breaking out??? It's called bracket racing. Just run a better race, and I won't have to lift. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
I'm through with this thread. I'll just wait to see what the final classes are for the next NFRA event, and I'll choose my class accordingly. Chris was looking for feedback, and he has my ideas.

 

[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>
You obviously don't understand the point of lifting. Sandbagging is intentional! It's all about getting to the next round. I let off quite a few times in BG because I had the holeshot and room to play on the end. I could run it out, but why would I chance breaking out??? It's called bracket racing. Just run a better race, and I won't have to lift. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">
I'm through with this thread. I'll just wait to see what the final classes are for the next NFRA event, and I'll choose my class accordingly. Chris was looking for feedback, and he has my ideas.</strong><hr></blockquote>


That's right Trevor, Sand-bagging is an integral part of 'BRACKET RACING'. This is NOT BRACKET RACING. This is heads up INDEX RACING just like the NMCA EFI rulebook. If you bracket racers want to sand-bag, STAY in the brackets. This is NOT brackets.

 

Sounds like fun! <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ... but will be VERY hard police. You would almost have to tear someone down to figure out if they were legal.

 

[quote]Originally posted by WILWAXU:
<strong>Sounds like fun! <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> ... but will be VERY hard police. You would almost have to tear someone down to figure out if they were legal.</strong><hr></blockquote>

John, that's the whole idea behind the index thing. If we index it, no teardown will be required. This is why:

If we run no-holds barred straight-up, heads-up, bolt-on class without indexes:

You show up and run 11.80. RUQWIKR or anyone else for that matter shows up and runs 11.25 and wins the whole shooting match. Now someone, maybe you, will protest and RUQWIKR and others will have to tear their engines down on their street car they used to get to and from the track. Definitely not cool!! Very few would participate with these rules, I know I wouldn't.

Now lets run the race with my index rules. You now have the option to make your car 2 tenths slower (by adding weight, tuning, whatever EXCEPT LIFTING) and run 12.00 to 12.50 class OR make your car quicker to be competitive in the 11.50 to 11.99 class. You pick the index. Therefore you get to prepare your car beforehand to run right on that index, just like everyone one else in that index. So when you get to the track you will be competing heads-up with people who run basically the SAME number you do WITHOUT LIFTING. Being the true racer that you are, you choose to make your car quicker and enter the 11.50 to 11.99 index and you run an 11.55 to my 11.59 and beat me. Good close racing. No teardown needed becuase everyone is trying to run near the same exact time. Cheating on your engine gives you no competetive advantage over anyone else, so why bother? People who run say 11.75 can add weight and run 12.0s in the 12.00 to 12.50 index. Folks, it just don't get any simplier than this.
No teardown required, just a tech inspection for obvious easy to check things.

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

Dumb luck= the difference in a flat-out 12.000 and 11.999
Just being dumb = taking the stripe by a car length and not lifting a little bit and risking your win light to aforementioned dumb luck <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kristi ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by Kristi:
<strong>Dumb luck= the difference in a flat-out 12.000 and 11.999
Just being dumb = taking the stripe by a car length and not lifting a little bit and risking your win light to aforementioned dumb luck <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kristi ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bracket Racer mentality syndrome. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

 

I HATE minimum weights. Yes right now I'm closer to race car than street car but before I got really nuts I was around 3350 with AC,PS, Carpet and without all the other hardcore weight mods. Throw in aanother lightweight front pass seat and I'd be around 3360. Now instead of spending my money on 15 different cat-backs I bought light weight parts(PA racing k-member and lower A-arms and I'll have the BMR uppers shortly) so with that I'd be close to 3300, than I could get a carpet that looks IDENTICAL but be 30lbs lighter than stock but I didn't go buy that new Throttle body that WOULD be legal. See where I'm going with this

I like the index system like something from comp elimator but base the index on weight, converter, exhaust or just the amount of engine mods. Than impose I .5 or .6 sec break out

Example before the current transformation

I'd run in ST/AA and weigh in at 3000lbs <img src="images/icons/tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> I'd HAVE to run 11.5 or better but if I run a 10 I'm done

This made alot more sense when I first started this but now it just seems like a more complicated bracket race format

<img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: Bob2of3 ]</p>

 

Well Bob, with my indexing system, there would be no minimum weights needed. Just run your index.

HOWEVER, to insure that these are daily driven street cars, you must have working A/C, powersteering, and ABS. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> You know, all the working systems your car came with stock. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

[ November 14, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

The index system - like the Open Comp Format - is really another variety of bracket racing. It certainly can be fun, and it is different, and I'm not knocking it at all....but it is still handicapped, no-breakout allowed racing....ie...bracket racing. That said, it very well may be the best option out there.

A truly heads-up bolt-on class would be awesome, but as many have already said, you would have to have a way of verifying legality - which would inevitably mean a tear down. However, if the series is really going to grow, and become more 'bit time', then that bridge is going to have to be crossed at some point.

Best of luck with whatever you choose.