[quote]Originally posted by Trevor D:
<strong>

I'll let the "hardcore" bolt-on guys duke it out. I'll be in the lowly brackets where I belong, cheating of course. Y'all have fun. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Trevor
-unskilled, whining, cheating bracket racer

</strong><hr></blockquote>

ROTFLMAO <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> Trevor, I'm glad you got a sense of humor and aren't taking my teasing the wrong way. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by McRat:
<strong>

I've seen people kicked off the track for hitting their brakes in index/bracket racing. Granted it was 20 years ago, maybe they've relaxed at some tracks.

People will still "sandbag" an indexed class. For you younguns, this is where you add weight to your car to avoid breaking-out of your index.

If the only rules are tires, it's DAMN hard to cheat. You would have to have custom tires made with the wrong DOT treadwear # cast into them. Width can be measured easily.

If you do run "classes" do it like the SCCA does. If it doesn't SPECIFICALLY say you can do it, you can't. People have been disqualified for removing trim from their cars, because the rulebook didn't say that was allowed.

If you decide to run Index, ban adding ballast. You can't enforce it, but hell, at least you tried...</strong><hr></blockquote>

McRat, IMO there is nothing wrong with adding weight to slow your car down. A 12.01 car is a 12.01 car regardless of how much it weighs. If you add 200 pounds to an 11.80 car it is now a 12.01 car, just like if you remove 200 lbs from a 12.20 car it is now a 12.01 car, what's the problem? The only cheaters are the ones with 11.80 cars who brake their way to 12.01.

Secondly, the NFRA would probably prohibit ballast boxes for bolt-on cars. Legal ways to add weight would be putting your full interior in, running more gas in the tank, or ditching the skinnies up front and running stock fronts.

The whole street tire deal is very unfair and unsafe IMO. It helps the slower cars at the expense of the quicker cars. This is not good racing IMO. IMO everyone should be allowed to run up to their potential whatever that may be.

[ November 15, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

If you can't have a sense of humor, then life will get pretty dull. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> It's good to hear from you Joe! It's like you said, there's no surefire way to get around the lifting. No matter what the rules say, someone will try it. That's something that's HARD to regulate. I've been for an index class since Kristi posted the idea, but my arguments have been primarily with the lifting and the breaking out. The lifting is next to impossible to regulate. Is there an overall better way? No, there probably isn't, short of teardowns. And we obviously don't want that headache.
It's been a great debate, and I think we've hit this topic from 1,000 different angles. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> No matter how we go about it, there is going to have to be some amount of trust in the bolt-on racers that they'll be honest. Index or no index, if it's for bolt-on racers only, we'll have to trust that someone with a little experience didn't do any home-porting on heads, etc. Either way, it'll come down to who can nail the index and cut the light. We just have to hope that we don't end up with a hard-headed entrant with a 3,600# A4 that's running 118 MPH trap speed and calling it a legit bolt-on car.

 

[quote]Good ideas, but I have a real safety issue with forcing 11 second cars to run on street radials. IMO this is unsafe. Good tires are your first piece of safety equipment IMO. <hr></blockquote>

I completely disagree, but we can agree to disagree if you like.

[quote]Secondly, if we run the type of rules you are suggesting, then some of the faster cars like Bob2of3's old car, RUQWIKR, Black Sunshine, and others probably won't be able to race.<hr></blockquote>

I suppose that is possible. However, you will notice that I prefaced my post with idea that this would give the 'little guy' a place to race - not the fastest cars in the country.

[quote]The index classes with fewer car rules allows for wider participation because everyone can 'run what they brung' without having to return it back to stock just to race. It also requires less policing. <hr></blockquote>

That is true, and I know you don't like to hear this, but no matter what you wish to call it, it is still a bracket race.

[quote]The more rules you have on the car, the more you have to build your car around those class rules rather than to what you personally want to drive on the street AND the more policing required by the NFRA.<hr></blockquote>

Yes. That is how heads-up racing works. Bracket racing requires only safety rules. Heads-up racing requires more detailed rules. You can't have your cake and eat it too...unless you think index-racing does just that. I personally don't. If you do, ok. If the masses do, ok.

I won't be racing in it anyways....but if I still had my 99 T/A, I'd much prefer to race in a 'heads-up' bolt-on class vice an indexed bracket race. That is, of course, just my opinion.

[quote]Exactly!! that is the reason for the indexes, <hr></blockquote>

Which is also what makes it a bracket race - you can't go faster than your index, and a slower car gets a head start.

Once again...no offense intended. My thoughts.

 

Ok, it looks as if the intention of this thread was to get racers (using the term loosly) like me to get out of the stands in on the track. Now, Im new in the racing game and I pretty much understand what exactly is going on here, but who ever said this is right: the more rules you put down, the more im not gonna want race. dont get me wrong i think it will be a blast, but i guess im not understanding this. What im seeing is that this index race is a bracket race with no lifting. you would just tune your car to run a bit slower to fit into the bottom of one class. thats cool i guess, im not in it for a trophy or money, its just fun. however, I would like to be somewhat competitive so the classes/indexes sound like a good idea. but the faster the classes get, the more you will inevitably get some guy wanting to tear another guys motor down. maybe i just dont understand this racing thing, but if i gets set up the way 2quick is saying i would want to go and race "heads up" in a 12.50-break-out "index" class, then lose and go and try my hand at writing 12.50 on my windshield and bracket racing. same thing i think.

all i know is id be lucky to pull 12.50-12.60s as my car sits with ET Streets, so i need a slow class, no matter how you do it.


Ryan

 

[quote]I know because I slid through the lights in the race at Atlanta and nobody said a word.<hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" /> This is why I love Joe. Because he can do it all. Kick your butt in heads up OR nail you on the tree and "cheat" at the finish line to win a bracket race... err.. oops.. I mean index race <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Kristi ]</p>

 

My last comment on this thread.

Maybe you did at the first event...At least have the ability for those of us, regardless of mods, who just want to go and do some time trials to play with our buddies.

1) Either because they don't want to race for whatever reason, regardless of format (heads-up or bracket)

2) Or just don't fit into a certain class well.


When the classes are finalized, there will be some that don't want to change their cars to fit in if needed and would just as soon grudge race, time trial, or whatever.

BTW, is the date & location finalized yet? I did not see it on the NFRA site.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

I don't see anything wrong with making your car heavier or slower to run in an index class. I do however see something wrong with 'lifting' or 'braking' to a 12.01 with an 11.90 car and we would have rules against that.

Since this is heads-up racing with no lifting or braking, how is this bracket-racing?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's arguably harder to lift/brake to a certain time than it is to just use ballast. I don't see how one way is "cheating", and the other is OK. <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

If there's any type of breakout rule, then it's bracket racing.

 

Personally, It doesn't really matter to me what format is used. I am gonna be there and race regardless, but here is my 2 cents...

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
In strict class rules racing, what high 12 sec. bolt-on car is going to show up to run against a 11 sec. bolt-on car? <hr></blockquote>

I would. <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0"> But, maybe I am in the minority on that one. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">

Anyway, I would rather see a "run what you brung" heads up format. No need to break down into different classes for A4s, M6s, non-stock converters, street radial,etc...if you are worried about not competing with the quicker bolt-on cars, then start wrenching or run the bracket racing. Ideally, it would be cool if it was set up so that the bracket racing took place at a time when everyone that wanted to can participate...that way if you are one who gets eliminated early you still can have chance to get more runs in the bracket racing.. Although, I doubt time permits for that. In any respect, one thing I really don't like about the index thing is...

[quote]1) the quickest overall bolt-on car, winner of 11.49 and quicker class

2) the quickest 11.50 to 11.99 bolt-on car, the winner of this class

3) and the quickest 12.00 to 12.49 bolt-on car, the winner of this class <hr></blockquote>

What is so fun about knowing I have the quickest 12.00-12.49 car??? I mean breaking it down so much kinda makes winning lose its "luster". Also, Why should the guy win the title of "quickest overall bolt-on", just because he raced in that class??? That basically eliminates anyone not running low 11s from even having a the slightest chance. It should really be based on the fact that not only does he have the fastest car, but raced/drove it the best that day too...Doing it with break downs like that is similar to saying a certain team gets the championship title just cause they had the best record of the season. Yeah, it's likely they will win, but anything can happen. Same is true with racing...For example (grant it this is on a much smaller scale), but for the last MFBA event we had an NA LS1 class, no other break downs from there...heads and cam guys were running stock guys, were running A4's and M6's...I ended up in the finals against a mid 11 sec car (I was running 12.5's that day). I ended up winning b/c he screwed up his launch big time and spun like crazy. I cut a better light and didn't spin as bad. I came home with the "Fastest N/A LS1" trophy. If we were doing this format broken down to 11-11.5, 11.5-12, 12.0-12.5 etc...I would have not even had the chance to race him and he would have automatically won the trophy.

WE ARE THERE BECAUSE WE LOVE RACING AND TO HAVE FUN PEOPLE! Yeah, it sucks that we even have to deal with the "what ifs" and what not of people cheating, but if people really want to cheat they will find a way. Placing a 1001 rules, regulations, and guidelines won't eliminate it.

I know there were a ton of other points brought up that I didn't touch upon, but like I said...i would show up and race either way. I'm with Trevor and will "let the 'hardcore' bolt-on guys duke it out". <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0"> Ok, I'm done...now, who wants a beer??? hehehe <img src="graemlins/fluffy.gif" border="0" alt="[Fluffy]" />

-Priscilla

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: FASTR A4 ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by cASe SenSiTive:
<strong>

It's arguably harder to lift/brake to a certain time than it is to just use ballast. I don't see how one way is "cheating", and the other is OK. <img src="images/icons/confused.gif" border="0">

</strong><hr></blockquote>

I disagree with this. When you lift or brake at the end you are not aiming for a 12.01 or any time for that matter. All you are doing is trying the beat the other guy across the line by a fender or less. You don't care what time you run as long as you beat your opponent while not 'breaking-out'. No big deal. All you have to do is use your eyeballs. Skilled 'bracket racers' are very good at this.

IMO, it takes much more talent to tune and 'set-up' your car to run right near the index everytime without braking and lifting. In index racing, braking and lifting are crutches for poor tuning and car set-up skills IMO.

As I said before a 12.01 car is a 12.01 car. An 11.80 car is only a 12.01 car with cheating involved, braking or lifting.

Braking and lifting makes for some very unexeciting racing for the spectators. Spectators want to see two cars race each other all the way down the track.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

Then the NFRA better be prepared to have a ton of different classes, because that is what it will take to get broad base participation and give everyone a fair chance at winning.

To be fair to the really quick bolt-on guys as well as the hardly modded bolt-on guys, you would really need to have many different strict classes of 'Bolt-on/Stock', not just one. You need different classes for A4s, M6s, non-stock converters, street radial, drag radial, bias-ply slick, different weight classes...etc., etc. ad infinitum. Don't think we have enough bolt-on cars for that. And who would want to police that mess as well as come up with the different rules for each class in the first place. If you have only one strict rules class, then it will either unfairly favor the fast guys OR the lesser modded slow guys. There is no way around that without multiple classes or my index solution.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Where does it say that everyone should have a chance at winning? Racing is a competition. If you're the fastest on a given day, then you win. If not, go make your car faster.

And there's no reason that we'd have to have all that many different classes. The NMRA does just fine with it's classes. Racers just build their cars to a class spec. Sure, there'll be griping about what's allowed and what isn't, but you'll have that anyway.
For the NFRA to survive, it needs to be more than just a bunch of F-body guys renting out a track.

 

[quote]Originally posted by cASe SenSiTive:
<strong>

Where does it say that everyone should have a chance at winning? Racing is a competition. If you're the fastest on a given day, then you win. If not, go make your car faster.

And there's no reason that we'd have to have all that many different classes. The NMRA does just fine with it's classes. Racers just build their cars to a class spec. Sure, there'll be griping about what's allowed and what isn't, but you'll have that anyway.
For the NFRA to survive, it needs to be more than just a bunch of F-body guys renting out a track.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Case Sensitive,

We are not trying to develop a 'professional' racing series with the 'bolt-on' class. That is what the higher classes are for. The 'bolt-on' class is about maximum participation by the average F-body owner. Nothing more, nothing less.

To do that, we can't require people to build a car to a spec. as this would discourage participation. We want people to 'run what they brung' with their everyday street cars. If we go spec., the smart cheaters, the rich, and the professionals will take over this class and drive out all the amateurs and 'weekend warriors'.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

I disagree with this. When you lift or brake at the end you are not aiming for a 12.01 or any time for that matter. All you are doing is trying the beat the other guy across the line by a fender or less
[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>


<sigh> The whole point of racing is to beat the other guy. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> With indexes, all you do is limit the ET of the competitors. It's still friggin brackets.

FASTR A4: Ditto! <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> The fastest guy doesn't always win, even in heads-up.

/me would rather lose in a true heads-up class, than win a bracket class. <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0">

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

Case Sensitive,

We are not trying to develop a 'professional' racing series with the 'bolt-on' class. That is what the higher classes are for. The 'bolt-on' class is about maximum participation by the average F-body owner. Nothing more, nothing less.

To do that, we can't require people to build a car to a spec. as this would discourage participation. We want people to 'run what they brung' with their everyday street cars. If we go spec., the smart cheaters, the rich, and the professionals will take over this class and drive out all the amateurs and 'weekend warriors'.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

And that is what bracket racing is for. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

 

Case sensitive,

Where I come from the whole idea is to beat your opponent by a fender or MORE, not a fender or less. I guess some people just don't see the distinction between racing ALL the way down the track Vs. outbraking someone for the win.

Priscilla,

I am trying to give everyone a chance in order to get wide participation. Can a slower car beat a quicker car? yes. But I think you are being overly optimistic if you think a 12.30 car is going to beat an 11.30 car in heads-up racing for the title of 'quickest bolt-on car'. I don't think anyone can cut that good a light <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> . Your only chance of winning would be the other guy breaking, and that is NOT a win.

Now Priscilla, if you win your index, you can race the winner of the 11.49 and quicker index with a indexed handicap start. You will then have a real chance of beating him and taking home the trophey for bragging rights.

 

[quote]Originally posted by cASe SenSiTive:
<strong>

And that is what bracket racing is for. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0"> </strong><hr></blockquote>

Look, 'bracket racing' is **** to race and **** to watch. This heads-up index racing will be much more exciting for the spectators and racers alike.

Agian, I am combining the best elements of class heads-up racing with the best elements of 'bracket racing' and trying to mitigate the worst elements of both. NOthing more, nothing less. I thought when I came up with this plan, it would get the support of heads-up racers as well as bracket racers, but apparantly it has gained the support of neither. Fine, have your strict rules class racing and let's see how long participation by the grass roots NFRA members lasts. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

As Joe said, we have been down this road before and it is called NHRA stock and super stock eliminator classes.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by FASTR A4:
<strong>Placing a 1001 rules, regulations, and guidelines won't eliminate it (cheating).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly my point. All the class car rules will do is eliminate grass roots competitors, not cheating.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong>

Look, 'bracket racing' is **** to race and **** to watch. This heads-up index racing will be much more exciting for the spectators and racers alike.

Agian, I am combining the best elements of class heads-up racing with the best elements of 'bracket racing' and trying to mitigate the worst elements of both. NOthing more, nothing less. I thought when I came up with this plan, it would get the support of heads-up racers as well as bracket racers, but apparantly it has gained the support of neither. Fine, have your strict rules class racing and let's see how long participation by the grass roots NFRA members lasts. <img src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0">

As Joe said, we have been down this road before and it is called NHRA stock and super stock eliminator classes.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: 2quick4u ]</strong><hr></blockquote>

Dude, I agree that bracket-racing sux. But Index racing isn't much better. Look at the NSCA EFI class. That's an index class, and it's dying from lack of participation. I honestly don't believe that index racing will be the savior of the sport.

As I said before, there are plenty of people out there who run in a heads-up class, knowing that they don't have a chance of winning unless the faster guys screw up. But they still run.

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong> Your only chance of winning would be the other guy breaking, and that is NOT a win.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If the other guy breaks, it IS a win, so long as you can make a pass down the track. If you don't see it as a "legitimate win", then fine. You can't call it a "draw" because you don't get to race your opponent.
As for bracket racing being **** to race and watch, that's your opinion. I personally love it because the quicker car does not dominate; the better driver does. I've NEVER let off or braked when I ran my Chevy II in super pro. WHY? It's because all of the racers were so good that there was NO ROOM to play on the big end. Running .02 over your dial could very easily put you on the trailer. I can't tell you the number of races that I've lost and won by .005 or less. Besides, have you ever tried to back-pedal when a 7-second dragster is chasing you down? <img src="images/icons/grin.gif" border="0">
If you can break out, then it's a bracket race. You can call it cheating in an index class or just a disqualification in a bracket class. Either way, you break out and lose.

[ November 16, 2001: Message edited by: Trevor D ]</p>

 

[quote]Originally posted by 2quick4u:
<strong> I am trying to give everyone a chance in order to get wide participation. Can a slower car beat a quicker car? yes. But I think you are being overly optimistic if you think a 12.30 car is going to beat an 11.30 car in heads-up racing for the title of 'quickest bolt-on car'. I don't think anyone can cut that good a light <img src="images/icons/wink.gif" border="0"> . Your only chance of winning would be the other guy breaking, and that is NOT a win.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I see where you were going with this set up and like I said b/4 either way I'm in. I'm not completely against it, I was just stating what I felt about it. Also, I didn't say that a 12.30 was gonna beat an 11.3 car...I pointed out that it was likely the faster car would win but, my point was that the CHANCE of the slower car winning was completely eliminated.

BTW, in the race I mentioned in my ealier post... The guy was running 11.5's to my 12.5's all day long. I won and he did NOT break. <img src="images/icons/smile.gif" border="0">