As far as whether I have a gen 1 or 2 I have a 2 piece rear seal which according to GM this is a gen 1 motor. There is a discrepancy of when the gen2 motor came into existence because in 1986 the sbc came out with a one piece seal THEN the LT1 style motor came out.

I agree there needs to be classes for the slower cars BUT the C5R based cars should be in the same class as the Dart etc blocks.
I caught total hell from everyone when I ran 8.75 because I didnt have a stock block, well how much hell is everyone going to give the guys that fly with a C5R??????

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by MADMAN:
<strong> I caught total hell from everyone when I ran 8.75 because I didnt have a stock block, well how much hell is everyone going to give the guys that fly with a C5R?????? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I would just chalk that one up to ignorance.

How many people who go outlaw racing are going to say, "8.75? But you didnt have a stock block!"

I'm surely not going to.

<-- twirls finger <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" />

 

I agree, a C5R is NOT an LS1. It is in the same family as the LS1 just as the LQ4 is in the same family but it isn't an LS1. It is a Gen III.

Really, if the question is "What is the fastest LS1", then that engine should have both an LS1 block AND LS1 heads. If it has an LQ4 block or heads then it's not an LS1. If it has LS6 heads, as so many here do, then it's not an LS1. But, if the question is really, "What is the fastest LS1 style engine (which must be what most at LS1Tech look at judging by the number of iron blocks, 5.3 heads, and LS6 heads on the fastest lists) then the C5R should be included. It is, afterall, a Gen III just as the LS1 and LQ4 are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

"If we think that the C5R is normal, then we have to consider the SB2. Chew on that."

Not sure I understand your connection here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Will Gen III heads bolt to it? Then why would we have to consider it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ February 18, 2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Colonel ]</small>

 

i think gen 2 started with 1993corvettes then f bodys
i agree that c5r heads should be in a different class but like sanders said ls1 stye motors should include all motors in the gen 3 family
if a ls6 intake fits its a ls1 stye motor in my mind"which isnt that big"

 

But even still once deviated from the factory block its no longer a ls1... as i said before block is the last determining factor..change crank heads,intake etc etc all you want ,but once that block is replaced with something else.You in essence killed the last breathe of what you call the ls1..
wonder how many 3rd gen owners that would be swapping out that L89 under these classifications of "like" and "style" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

This is going to far with what people are trying to get away with here , fellas am i the only 1 here that knows what the "R" stands for??? ... i doubt it , the c5r is a RACE block , as is the bowtie block they were both designed for race only applications , trying to get away with a c5r block in a LS1 class is no different than a lt1 guy trying to run a bowtie and modify head to accept reverse cooling , i am also one of the guys building (the forbidden) dart little M motor , but i just want to run the number i could care less about classes , but if that is your thing , then quit comparing apples to oranges , the C5R is a race block built to withstand high horsepower numbers , extreme heat and cylinder head pressures ... if you want to build a C5R motor thats your choice but get in the class where you belong with the OTHER RACE BLOCKS ... dont try to sit back and dominate the stock blocked classes cause you proved you can spend more money ... im not trying to step on anyone toes , i just hate seeing someone get ahead by basically cheating ... i stepped up , maybe its time for you guys 2 , or mebbe us aftermarket block guys should just throw our motors in a gen 3 camaro and say its fair . Even if they do let a c5Race block go in the ls1 classes you are gonna see it get out of hand , which i persoanlly would hate to see .... just my $.02

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by OSR 1:
<strong> hey guido tell them to stick the dist under the waterpump on their sbc and you will let them call it a lti lol </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Iv heard of a few that have taken the electronic guts of an Opti and put them into distributors. Also, many LT1 guys run an opti-eliminator kit due to reliablilty reasons, or go crank trigger like Joe said. Are they not an LT1 anymore? Cuz we could put all that stuff on a Little M. Has Opti guts, could bolt some LT1 style AFR227 reverse cooled heads and rework them for regualr cooling. All LT1 parts with a little eloctronic engineering and machine work <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" /> you have to mess with a lot of heads for them to work on a SBC 400 (ala drilling steam holes) so why not let LT1 guys rework some SB2s for reverse cool. Longs dey bolt to the block like C5R heads do on a LS1 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

Sorry had to stir the pot some more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

 

C5R heads are race heads. They were built for the Lemans cars. 38cc's, special Jesel rockers only, and a custom manifold. Its a race head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

If we think that the C5R is normal, then we have to consider the SB2. Chew on that. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by G2 LS1:
<strong> C5R heads are race heads. They were built for the Lemans cars. 38cc's, special Jesel rockers only, and a custom manifold. Its a race head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="gr_images/icons/cool.gif" />

If we think that the C5R is normal, then we have to consider the SB2. Chew on that. <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Madman runs em and no one has thrown up the <img border="0" alt="[bullshit]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_bs.gif" /> flag. Darren Harden has a set for his LT1 block that he modified for reverse cooling. I still dont see the issue here.

Joe, does the big block 8100 use the same block as a 346ci LS1?? I dont know anything about the 8100.

Do you see my point though? Im beginning to think you dont see my point of view. I see yours on the LS1. I think colonel has the right perspective on that issue though.

 

well hopeful you guys figure out what will make you happy i plan on running c5r heads this fall
just remember if you want cars at these events you have to keep an open mind
this is the great usa and thats why we have all these great choses on engine combos
also if you can put that 8.1 big block in your car and get it to run god bless
more the marry
I want and will support any racing events that my cars can compete and if theirs no class ill change my car to fit in lets just race

 

The C5R block and heads are an aftermarket piece for race use. My Dart block and Brodix 18 degree heads are aftermarket pieces for race use. Yes my block and heads are streetable as are the C5R stuff. If the discussion is the fastest "LS1" then it would seem to me it should be a LS1 block. That would mean that the part number on the block and heads should match the GM part number.

 

I myself hasnt said anything about bolting a set of c5r heads on a factory block..and I don't see a problem with that..My debate here is block itself..money may be a issue for some ,but not all. Anybody running any commendable times already has spent quite a bit of money as it is.some I would go as far as saying they have spent as much in a stock set of heads as what the c5r block even cost..So money isnt a issue. notice c5r block is not singled out here, but any block other than factory original..unless the pattern has changed on what defines a certain lt1/ls1 .I'd say any change of block applies.. unless replaced with another factory ls1 block..My goal in all of this is we, the f-body community needs some sort of standard.This is not a ls1/lt1 debate or anything else,moreso just clarification of what applies to a certain status, class or whatever..Questions just like this one is what needs to be addressed for growth or structure...It wasn't addressed to strike blows at any particular person/'s... Look at the sponsors this board has and other clubs across the country..everyone wanted growth bigger payouts more attendance..well we have the enthusiasts that span almost 10 years,only thing we dont have is a standard...If you ran a Lt1/ls1 or any factory block.do you think its fair to run with a aftermarket engine or factory specialty engine in competition where class is designated that ls1/lt1 only? which I might add the way it has been for quite some time... If anything designated what a ls1/lt1 is, it was that of the block nothing else..whatver heads ,induction, or internally changes you choosed to do was ok longs the factory equipped block was used... theres nothing else left with huge strokers and such that are already competing or running the block is the last designated factor is it not? after that theres nothin else left to even say it is one or the other..

 

This is the greatest topic I've ever read.

I gotta agree with my idol, the Colonel. I think one of the biggest questions should be, "What does it take to get people to come to the races/events?" Is it necessary to have classes/divisions/rules like the NMRA and such, or can we do it our way and allow anything that is LS1-BASED and expect more people to come, more media coverage, more aftermarket, more magazines, etc.? That's at the base of this whole discussion.

 

Rage, I agree but I think you missed the whole picture. I think colonel can be in a class and run as well as madman or anyone else with a non-oem equipped block engine and f-body/stock suspended based or what ever is allowable..If the fast cars is what draws crowds,which I know does. Spectator admission would be better ,but wouldnt more racers paying entry to actually race, better the payouts and such to draw more people and faster cars?Right now most your spectators are either enthusiasts or potential race entries so why are they just spectating and not racing?...small tire, ***** to the walls racing is where its at..wanna draw a crowd let the big boys play..just place them in a category they belong.

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Joe Overton ]</small>

 

Agreed, Joe.

I think what Stephen was mostly trying to say was if we are going to use the "LS1-BASED" handle, the C5R block and heads, should be considered since they do bolt to OEM LS1 heads/block. I have to agree with him again when he says that the PRICE of the parts really oughtn't matter.

But, I completely understand and agree with what you're saying. It's all a matter of where the lines are going to be drawn (if any are to be drawn at all).

<small>[ February 19, 2003, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: RAGEman ]</small>

 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by RAGEman:
<strong> Agreed, Joe.

I think what Stephen was mostly trying to say was if we are going to use the "LS1-BASED" handle, the C5R block and heads, should be considered since they do bolt to OEM LS1 heads/block. I have to agree with him again when he says that the PRICE of the parts really oughtn't matter.

But, I completely understand and agree with what you're saying. It's all a matter of where the lines are going to be drawn (if any are to be drawn at all). </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">and who is the ultimate decision maker? is it the racer? the event organizer? no lines wont be drawn at all without topics like this one,and others for that matter..
you keep stating the c5r head bolts on a a ls1..well sure it will, with work..as will a 18 degree head on a lt1,does that mean I can run the block that goes along with those heads..Cause thats exactly what your saying..

 

We racers are the decision makers, I think.

I'm sorry if you mistook me for someone who knows anything, but can you fill me in on how much more "work" it takes to bolt a C5R head to an LS1 block than it does to make an 18° head fit on an LT1 block? I really don't know what I'm talking about, and am VERY open to opinions and what not, so please don't take this the wrong way.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

 

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> I didnt post on this thread to discuss tech.But, I put it like this if I thought I "needed" to run set to run the goal I was trying to achieve I surely wouldn't be stickin a set on no Lt1.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" /> As far on how it can be done why and how is not what this topic is about . It can be done.(fact), the act of how is irrelevant whether how time comsuming or technical it is...fact is they "bolt on" as it was so described time and time again about the c5r heads bolting on a ls1.. both require work end of story..the issue of whether ones harder to make work than the other isnt relevant either..what is relevant its not a ls1 block ....if you want to put c5r heads on the factory block then do it,but dont dance around trying to make me believe or anyone else that I know has read this thread.That a c5r block should be in the same class as ls1...I mean I give the ones trying to justify it credit..You for sure putting up a fight.. but how much clearer can it be...its not a ls1 ..it didnt come in the f-body..so whats the arguement here..there is none.. If your going to believe in your mind that it is on the basis of "like" and "design", so be it.But, not everyone agrees, as this thread shows..as well as another thats going on.On this very same topic..As you can tell I dont get off topic, but nice try.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="gr_grin.gif" /> You can always add "fastest f-body with a genIII "like" in "design" ls1" to the ET list if this is what its truly about...Rage sorry to not answer your question but I'm trying to stay with the topic at hand..you may want to post your question on the tech board.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="gr_images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ February 20, 2003, 12:55 AM: Message edited by: Joe Overton ]</small>

 

Understood!! <salutes>

I definitely see your point about LS1/non-LS1. That's why I said if we're gonna use term "LS1-BASED," I'd include the C5R heads/block, but that's the big if. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="gr_stretch.gif" />

GREAT TOPIC!!!

 

I love this post , its about time some things were brought to the table ... you guys keep saying "LIKE" in design well if you look at the facts a stock LS1 head is a 15 degree valve angle head and the C5R is a 11 degree valve angle head , with a 11 degree V/A head i see new pistons in order and totally relocated intake and exhaust runners and will definatley need a sheetmetal intake ... now i wonder how is it so LIKE in design ???? you change TOTAL geometry of the motor .... calling a C5R motor LIKE in design of a LS1 , is like trying to say a 10 degree buick headed small block is LIKE in design as a L89 ..... the only thing alike is cam location ... the C5r is a totally different beast than the LS1 and when a few get out there , you will find out for yourselves there is no comparison .... throw all the fastest titles out the window and really sit back and look at the 2 motors from a engine builders standpoint ... its not even close , C5R motors should be running with there own league which would be Dart little M , motown , bowtie type block V8s ..... just because the block is made by GM doesnt mean it isnt aftermarket .. GM has a very large R&D race team also .... they designed the block to RACE and to RACE only , just like the dart little M etc. i actually think its kinda funny someone would even try to run this motor as a LS1 in a LS1 class , but you guys are the 1s making the rules , so i guess you will decide acordingly ... Nobody will show to a event if they feel they have no way of competing and the C5R guys will DOMINATE every event as they should , because they are doing what there motor was built to do ... anyway i said my peace ... ohhh and you can bolt a buick 10 degree head on a LT1 also with some modifying ... so you guys make the call , ;et the racing get out of hand and your gonna have to spend big $$$$ to compete or tell colonel to come play with the big dogs <img border="0" alt="[driving]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_driving3.gif" />